Looks like they were made just to control the kyuubi. Everything else came later or so.

 

Anyone think Sasuke will get the 'eye' and force Naruto to fight against him using his own power rather than the Kyuubi's?

 

To obtain "the eye" Sasuke has to kill Naruto in the first place, so there's a little contradiction in your theory...

 

Unless, you know, Sasuke got a new best friend in those last few years. It's not like that would make any sense or anything...

On that note...Scaryisntit, the demon fox's name is Kyuubi. You can give it one U if you want, but no matter how many Us is in his name (one or two), there will always be only one B.

 

The new chapter was boring...

How stupid are ninjas in Naruto? I mean, Itachi killed the clan what, 10 years ago? And now someone (Sasugay of all people) realised he actually wasn't good enough to do that by himself... 10 fucking years later...

Kishimoto is making up too much stuff too fast, it's becoming ridiculous... (for example, Jiraiya is Naruto's godfather? WTF? Did he forget that for 12 years or something?)

 

I read the manga regularly right up till Sasugay showed up again in Part II. Now it's pretty much decaying into a pile of fail.

The moment that Naruto started crying like a bitch because he couldn't "save" sasuke pretty much ended the manga for me. At that moment it was like he'd given up... and once that happened... Naruto as a character became pretty fucking pathetic. Compared to the Naruto that fought Gaara... this was some impostor wearing a Naruto suit.

The Naruto that fought Gaara fought till he was crawling using his chin to drag himself on the ground...he never gave up. The Naruto of part II is a trainwreck.

And don't even get me fucking started on the fail that is the fucking Sharingan... If I knew Kishimoto personally, I'd be punching him in the groin with brass knuckles till he agreed to fucking stop making everything revolve around the sharingan and pumping it to levels of stupid power.

Anyway... Part 1 was made of win for the most part... it had what felt like a solid and at least semi interesting story (The wave country arc was of course the best part of the whole manga... everything else was a pale shadow of the Wave country Arc). So part I was great.

Then Kishimoto apparently discovered meth and crack and the Manga hasn't been the same since. I guess that's what happens when you start mainlining the shit to the point it rots your brain and heart.

In part II it's like he's just making shit up in every chapter that comes out of fucking nowhere. That's where the drugs figure in I guess. I figure anyone capable of part I of Naruto would HAVE to be seriously strung out if they could only create the crap that is Naruto Part II.

Case in point, I echo Calis Clayr's calls of "bullshit" that it took Sasuke to fucking figure out that Itachi didn't do the massacre on his own. I mean, what the FUCK!? You've got hundreds of other Shinobi in the damn fire village and NOONE figured out what the fuck was going on? What did they do... spike the town's water system with some sort of epic stupidity poison or something?

I won't even comment on items like the J man being Naruto's godpapy.

I will however predict what will happen with Naruto.

Naruto will discover that all his training (all the Kagebunshin training and whatnot) was pretty much to help him build up his own Chakra to the point that he can once more hold his own control over the Kyuubi's chakra.

There'll likely be some "ah ha!" moment where he'll do the old "One hand in Fist hits his other hand in an open palm" schitk. He'll realize that when he first successfully tapped the Kyuubi's chakra.. it was only after he'd had a huge "growth spurt" in his own Chakra... and that his next big "Powerup" was when he'd done the tree climbing (which builds up Chakra channeling ability the way weight training builds muscle control and power), then his next was when Jiraiya threw him off that cliff after a month of working himself to exhaustion (again more chakra weight training)... and that this trend continued with a month of working himself till he dropped on the Rasengan. The key point being is that his ability to channel more and more Kyuubi power seems to be incumbent on his own growth in his own chakra. Notice how each time he got the ability to channel more Kyuubi power it was only after he'd worked himself till he was exhausted and his own reserves grew in tandem? I know what you're gonna say... big freaking DUH... Well the brainiacs in the series still haven't figured this out apparently. That the seal was meant to mix the Kyuubi and Naruto's chakra. So of course it needs Naruto to become stronger. They think the fucking thing is breaking down.

His training with Jiraiya didn't provide him all that much growth in his own Chakra... but he was trying to tap more and more of the Kyuubi chakra... and that created an huge imbalance.

He'll realize that after he worked on all his elemental chakra bullshit... that his own chakra capacity was pushed to new limits... and that THAT is why Yamato hasn't had to put the breaks on him anymore. Naruto's personal chakra capacity has grown... and as a result now he's no longer going out of control like he was in the start of part II.

The problem is... whoop de fucking doo.. the story isn't about Naruto and his struggles anymore. Kishimoto is letting the fagboy sasugay fanboys and girls run the series. Sasuke is the most popular character in the series on Japan... so that's what the story is mostly about... and that's whose character is getting the most dramatic screentime (meaning time in the manga that has the most dramatic, fast paced, and important moments)
And is it any wonder that Sasuke is the most popular? Kishimoto has pretty much Nerfed Naruto as a character... and kept him acting like a fucking retard.

It was the fact that Naruto haddn't grown an inch in maturity or intelligence when he came back from his trip with Jiraiya that did it for me. I pretty much only check the manga out once every 4 or 5 months now. It's become pretty much a yawn for me.

One Piece however... if you can get up to Arlong park... damn that's a fun Manga. (And I don't wanna hear no bitching about the art in onepiece. Yeah I know it's weird... but it's still fun)

 

Crap. Has been edited.

Well, wasn't Sasuke supposed to kill his best friend to get the Mangekyo by killing his best friend? That didn't happen so I'm not about to put it past the authors.

 

Yeah... that's why Eiichiro Oda is one of the most popular Mangaka's in all of Japan... his stories are shit. I mean shit.. at 17 he only came in 2nd for the dang Tezuka award... the most prestigious award there is among Mangakas. If he was any good he'd have come in first. Right?

And that's why Onepiece has gotten nominated by write ins for the tezuka award twice...because again... it's crappy.

Oh.. and let's not forget that that's why One piece vol 25 sold more than 2,630,000 copies (and held the record in all of Japan for the one book to have sold the most copies... right up will Harry potter and the order of the phoenix came along and barely broke it's record) and why the series itself has sold more than 140,000,000 copies DOMESTICALLY in japan and is the third best selling Manga of all time.

Never mind the fact that Akira Toriyama himself admitted to being a fan of One Piece and Oda's work, to the point that he invited him to do a DBZ one piece cross over comic with him last year named Cross Epoch.
[img=http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3415/crossgg3.th.jpg]
Shit... Akira Toriyama does that with everyone... oh wait!... no.. he doesn't.

Anyway... Sorry, I know that came off pretty sarcastic, and I appologize if it sounded like I'm criticizing your opinion unfairly. I'm just trying to say that you gotta give credit where it's due... and if other mangaka's, particularly ones with serious clout are showing him and his work that much respect... then well... maybe there's something there that has slipped by ya.

 

That's a fine bit of logic you have going there. Basically, your argument comes down to 'People like it, so it must be good'. 'Not to sound like I'm criticizing your opinion unfairly', but Toriyama liking it shouldn't mean anything. He may have made one of the most recognized series out there, but that doesn't mean one damn thing when it comes to what manga he likes. If you were a fan of Tom Cruise, would you join the church of scientology?

And also, I am in agreement with Syaoran that it's a gigantic hunk of shit. Why, you ask? Personally, it's because, to me, it has no fucking direction. When you have 50 Volumes, 339 episodes, and you're still not anywhere closer to the end than when you started? That should be a rather big sign that you've let it drag on too long.

 

There.... fixed that for you. The thing is... awards and peer recognition ARE valid indicators of quality. They aren't foolproof... but they are still valid.

Ya See, I know you're trying to imply that this is simply "argument by concensus" (Ad populum arguement). Which is of course a logical fallacy. Or maybe an Arguement from authroity. The only problem is that you'd be applying those to a condition where that particular logical fallacy is invalid. Measures of QUALITY are a subjective measure, they cannot be quantified by "correct" or "incorrect" any more than you can quantify art in the same light. As such, professionals in a field do have greater weight given to their opinions than laypersons do.

Now, if I were claiming that OP were good just because I and most my friends like it... I'd be out of line... And while its not required to be an expert in the subject matter, neither I nor any of them are professional Mangaka's and hence have no real professional expertise or standing by which to gauge it or measure it against the rest of the field. But with most of the professional mangaka's whose works have been recognized as some of the best in the business all agreeing that his work is good... that lends a lot of credence to the claim... In the same way peer review in the academic world tends to weed out good work from bad.

Shouldn't... but saddly for your argument, it does. You see, you'd be right if it were simply Toriyama speaking out on what CAR he thinks is the best, or what Ice cream he likes, or what computer he likes. Toriyama is not an engineer, a food critic, or a computer manufacturer. He is however a professional Mangaka... and because of that... his decades in his profession and his standing as a recognized luminary in his field of expertise grants him a measure of authority in the same way that Steven Speilberg, Ron Howard, Tim Burton, and Martin Scorsese would be qualified to speak out on the quality of a movie. Yes, it's a subjective measure, but when it's not just one voice amongst those professionals claiming it's good...it has meaning.

Of course not. Tom Cruise is a wacko... and he's certainly not a recognized expert in any field other than appealing visually to women (which seems to be his sole claim for success in his acting career)... so his opinion means nothing.

That said... lets go back into the real world for a second shall we?

Suppose we're talking about ranking the scientists whose work has had the most profound impact in his or her field of expertise...

Would a collection of radio show talk hosts (or other equally random group) be most suited to make that sort of subjective judgment?... or would dozens of recognized experts in that field (peers) be better suited to the task? I think the answer is fairly fucking obvious. Peer review and recognition has been universally recognized as a good indicator of quality of work for a long time. Is it a perfect indicator... no... but it is a good one.

Maybe you're not aware of it, but One Piece is only 2 years older than Naruto... Are you saying the same about Naruto then? edit : One piece started on aug 4 1997, Naruto in 1999. (technically it started in aug 1997 with a oneshot piece... making it EXACTLY as old as one piece... but I'll give it the 1999 release date for the real series.)

 

No, actually, I'm not saying the same thing about Naruto. The reason? It has an antagonist. That being Pein and the Akatsuki. It's going somewhere, however so slowly, whereas One Piece has gone with a 'Pirate of the week' formula that just gets a little annoying after awhile.

Notice that my beef with One Piece is that it's going nowhere, not that it's long. Although the fact that One Piece is both long and going nowhere isn't getting it any bonus points.

Now for the rest of that;forgive me for not quoting every segment but I'm really just too lazy.

I think you kind of missed my point with the Tom Cruise example. I'm aware he's wacko, as is the church he belongs to. The point was that just because someone famous likes something shouldn't mean anything. Sorry if my last post was a little unfair, but it's a little hard to take what you say seriously when you bring out the 'Toriyama likes it' card. I don't care if you like it, that's your choice, but if you want to present a logical argument then that wasn't the best way to go about doing it.

Next point, many reputable magazines, newspapers, movie reviewers, directors and producers often tell me that certain movies are a must see. Surprise, Surprise when it turns out they were wrong, and I can only be glad I spared my wallet. Keep in mind these people are 'professionals' when it comes to watching and making movies.

Next point, that 'fixed that for you' was idiotic to an extreme. If I wanted, I could 'fix' your post to say 'I'm sorry, you're right; One Piece IS a highly overrated piece of trash'. But I didn't do anything like that, because I'm trying to honestly debate that One Piece is highly overrated.

Now that I've gone over your post a second time, your argument isn't even an argument at all. It's just the same thing repeated over and over in different ways. I'm not going to bother replying to whatever you say in retort - Not out of disrespect or scorn, you are after all free to your opinion - but after reading 'professionals like it so it's good' multiple times, I just can't take you seriously anymore.

 

First I'll address this.

Clearly you're not so well informed about One piece as you claim.
If you dwere you'd know that one piece has had a ton of plot advancement in the past two years.

In the begining, Luffy started the series detailing specifically what crewmembers would be needed to be filled to complete his crew. Franky was taken on as their engineer in the Enies Lobby arc which finished in 2006, and Brook completes the crew in 2007.

Along side the events and adventures of the one piece crew, we have had the attrocities of the world gov't laid bare to the readers, and how corrupt and evil the rulership of the WG is. Further we've had the war with Blackbeard and whitebeard heating up and explained and Shanks finally appearing and revealing important facts about the political landscape in the series. On that subject, we finally have an idea what the REAL political setting is in the story... since we've discovered how Luffy and his family fit into the overall political structure. (That his father (dragon) is a revolutionary against the world gov't and that his Grandfather (Garp) was the marine in service to the world gov't that captured Gold Roger... who the whole damn story revolves around)
We've finally been shown how the World Gov't and the 4 emperor pirates pretty much carved up the world into spheres of influence... and that's particularly important since now that Luffy and crew have been declared war criminals and had huge bounties placed on their heads.... and with the appearance of the WG assassins going after the Mugiwara pirates, we have had the whole strawhat group summarily defeated, showing how serious the stakes have become recently.

So... you were saying how it's not going anywhere?

Now... as to your other point

All I have to say is that it's clear that you're just being obtuse about it.

My points were
1. It's insanely popular among the general fanbase. Naruto (as of the release of vol 37) has sold 71 million copies. Bleach as of the release of it's 31st vol has sold only 40 million... While One Piece has sold 140 million copies as of the release of it's 46th volume.
and
2. That in addition to being popular among manga readers in Japan... his work has also been widely recognized by the overwhelming majority of Manga professionals as exceptional.

Notice I'm NOT just saying (as you claim) 'professionals like it so it's good'... I'm saying that if you combine that it clearly has mass market appeal (which it has demonstrated by the sheer volume of sales) and critical acclaim from industry pros... then there's a serious case to be made that it is good.

That your tastes and the tastes of some other readers may not go for it... fine. Not everyone liked Sergio Aragonés's work either. Never mind that it enjoyed both critical acclaim and wild popularity.

So... unless I'm misreading your counter argument your stance basically boils down to... " I don't care that One piece is tremendously popular among manga readers in general, and that it has sold more copies than Bleach and Naruto COMBINED (indicating it's appeal to fans) and that hundreds of professionals in the manga business all love it and say that Oda does great work. I say it's shitty... so it is."

I guess the old adage is right. You can lead a horse to water.

 

One Piece > Naruto.

 

Only if One Piece ends first.

Which it quite obviously won't.

 

We're getting slightly off topic, no?
Anyway...

I haven't read One Piece, myself, so I can't really say anything. But if many great mangaka praise it, it can't be too bad (sold copies don't mean a thing, there are a lot of idiots in this world...).

If people are going to have a "Naruto vs. One Piece" discussion, a new thread could be created...

 

As a person who enjoys quality art, let me be the first to say that I simply cannot watch/read One Piece. I don't care how good or bad the story is, the art is just so terrible that I just can't read it.

Anyone who seriously appreciates decent art would probably say the same.

On that note...anyone find any good seinen manga lately? Hellsing and GantZ just aren't enough...

 

Let's not go down that road. It's also kinda creepy to argue about and has been stated above... we're wandering too far off topic.

All I was saying is that it's good...

But back to the topic at hand. Naruto.

Part 1 was superior. It is a truly excellent manga, I don't think anyone would argue too hard against that statement, given Kishimoto got a lot of recognition from fans and peers. Part II however has been IMO mediocre because Kishimoto has been squandering good plot opportunities and neglecting his core characters to make the series more Sasuke focused by kowtowing to the popularity of the Sharingan and the Uchiha's at every turn. This IMO is a huge mistake.

If he'd kept the Uchiha and the powers they wield in the realm of reasonableness (as far as shinobi were concerned) then it would have remained a good manga.

This has led to what I consider big plot problems.

Case in point, the Uchiha were clearly present in Konoha for a reasonable amount of time (had been in konoha long enough to have established themselves as the police of Konoha and build a clan complex... which indicates at least several generations) but if the Sharingan was the secret to controlling or suppressing the Kyuubi (as has been claimed in part II)... then where the fuck were they when it attacked? Furthermore, why would the 4th have had to sacrifice himself if they could suppress it?

So Kishi's new claim that the Sharingan can also suppress the Kyuubi and was historically used for that purpose (in addition to it's million and one other powers apparently) has created huge holes in the story that have no real explanation.

If they were there and refused to fight... holy shit... the dishonor that would have been heaped on them would have been huge... and they'd most certainly not be considered a respectable clan. However clearly they were a loved and powerful clan in Konoha... so that contradicts the idea they'd have refused to fight the Kyuubi. So that said... where the hell was the Sharingan in that battle?

Prior to part II, they were just one of the other clans, powerful in their own right... but not GODLY powerful. But now in part II the Sharingan appears to have been retconed into the be all and end all of all of everything. That's just poor storytelling IMO.

It's like those fucked up super!Harry fanfics where Harry gets some god awful deus ex machina power that lets him WTFOMGPWN anything he lays eyes on.

 

You know, there are allot of things people miss on naruto manga. And i mean allot of things. For one, i know that Naruto is the one thats going to kill Madara. Why, because he's the main character and the other reason, he has power...or will have power.

Lets look at it this way, Yondaime knew something was up even before the fox attacked. He knew madara was acting up on his village and didn't tell anyone.

And when the fox attacked, Yondaime sealed only half of the demons of Yang chakra onto Naruto. And he also sealed the yin part of demon onto the key of some sort and sent it to Jairayer. And the old man knew this. What he also knew is that, one day Yondaime intended to give the key to complete "That" jutsu. I don't know what that means but for my theories sake i'm guessing it's to complete the yin of demon's chakra back with yang.

From the frogs expression, he said, "does Naruto even need that power." Well, i'm guessing he will need it because Madara is an invisible immortal. Lets face it, from the looks of it naruto will possibly be the strongest ninja in the world if he gets the power. *read 370

Also, people wonder why the sharingan is so powerful.

Well, lets see...um, for one, in the manga it states only Madara was the one to fully realize the full potential of his eyes. No one else knows meaning, no one else have the power to become what they truly can. Why else do you think Madara and Itachi killed off there clan. It's comman sense. Itachi says, they have been sitting in there own padestal that they forgot there ways or something like that.

Anywya, It's kinda obvious the way Itachi talked about madara he not only admired him, Itachi does "NOT" have the power that madara possess. Otherwise Itachi would have been able to challange Madara. People always miss the little once and continue focusing on the big picture. It's all conman sense.

ALSO, people hate sasuke. Why the fuck would they hate sasuke. They barely focused on him other than Naruto keep promising about bringing Sasuke back to the village. Lets face it, If naruto didn't go to see Sasuke, he wouldn't have become stronger than kakashi just by completing only half of the jutsu. Once he complete the other half, naruto would possibly become strong enough to sit with a kaga...maybe.

Also, in my opinion, Sasuke is only a stepping stone towards the full plot of naruto. The deceptions, hidden clues as to why and the how, it's all there. Madara, the akatsuke, Pein. They are the true problem. Sasuke isn't the main problem, only the stepping stone.

Read the manga carefully people. It's all there. And more importantly look at the minor points than the big picture.