Agreed. The problem is, like I said, Sasuke HAS to be as strong as Naruto, but Kishimoto isn't making it plausible anymore like he used to.

Part 1: He trained at home, everyday, even after missions/squad training.
Between: Trained by Orochimaru
Shippuden: Sharingan hax

I think that my biggest issue with Sasuke is that he's not even using the Sharingan for what it's most famous for, and he's not training to learn his new abilities. He just gets them. And what I mean by 'using the Sharingan for what it's most famous for' is that Kakashi earned the nickname Copycat Kakashi/Kakashi of the 1000 Jutsu, because he used the Sharingan to copy techniques his enemies used.

 

I could of sworn that Madara refered to Sasuke's MS as Itachi's so does that indicate that Sasuke's is only a half powered MS?

Page 4 of the latest manga: "Danzo...Its just like you said. Its no match for Itachi's Tsukiyomi, which can control time."

I might have the wrong idea though...

 

meh, I'm not too sure about this. I just can't see Naruto taking on the Raikage or the Mizukage. Naruto might match up better against Gaara or the Tsuchikage (although we don't really know all that much about his abilities), but I can't help but feel that he'd get wtf!raped by the Raikage's speed, taijutsu, and lightning aura thingy. And the Mizukage has those cool kekkei genkai which would murder a Naruto clone horde (and she is undoubtedly skilled in other areas).

The thing with Naruto is, he has a few great ninjitsu and sage techs, but he doesn't exactly top the list when it comes to speed, strength, or intelligence. Throughout the series, he has won a lot of his fights purely by pigheadedness or by relying on the Kyuubi. He just doesn't have mastery of the basics or a well rounded repertoire like many other ninja, that makes one truly dangerous. He's very predictable when it comes to tactics (spam shadow clone, try to maneuver enemy into rasengan/rasenshuriken, fail, try again, etc.), and I just can't see him outsmarting the other Kage when it comes to a one on one fight. He also lacks experience. While he's had some good fights, he's still only like 15 or 16 at this point in time. The other Kage (besides Gaara and the Mizukage) have at least 10 or 20 years of experience on him.

I'm not sure Naruto would be the favorite in a fight against Danzo either. Sasuke won, but he had to spam a shitload of hax techniques, and might have lost in the end if he hadn't had Karin on hand to analyze Danzo and heal himself when he was wounded.

In short, I think it's a bit early to proclaim Naruto as the strongest ninja, especially when his own sensei (who probably isn't even in the top 5) would undoubtedly wipe the floor with him in a serious fight.

 

I know this isn't the thread for the anime, but man have you guys seen the current filler? If someone wrote a fanfic like that they would be flamed so very hard and yet here they are making money off of it. So sad.

 

Sage Mode Naruto seems to be fast and have lots of strength; he took out a Pain incarnation with a single punch. The Pain fight also showed no shortage of intelligence on Naruto's part; he did plenty of planning and tactical improvisation.

I'd say that's questionable; the manga has several people state that post sage-training Naruto has surpassed Jiraiya, and Kakashi said Naruto had surpassed him after developing the Rasenshuriken.

I would saythat if Naruto is not the strongest ninja in the world yet he's definatley in the top ranks; Sasuke seemed to be reasonably capable in a one-on-one fight with any of the Kages, and Madara himself said that Sasuke is currently weaker than Naruto. However, there has already been a hint that can combine the power of the Kyuubi with Sage Mode; if Naruto ever manages to master that and/or gains a level of control with the Kyuubi comparable to Killer Bee he would be unstoppable.

 

I would talk about the manga, but it's to the point where I want to cry every time I think about just how fail it's getting, so instead I've only got one thing to say.

Chengar: get back to Cutting Loose, hoe. I wants more story! And double time it, /whip. I'm for serious about this. I've spent too many minutes reviewing it for it not to come quickly.... Q.Q

 

They have mentioned he has surpassed just about everyone.

Naruto isnt known for being very bright, but since he's training with Jiraiya, he has been a genius when he is in a fight. He tries something and it doesnt work, he comes up with something on the fly. The best examples I can think of are the 2nd bell test, the fight with Kakuzu when he adapts to hiding with the clones, and hiding all his clones as rocks against Pain. He is very unpredictable and at first it just seemed like pure luck when his attacks would work. Now however, I get the feeling it has less to do with luck and more to do with the fact that Naruto learned alot from Jiraiya.

I would say Naruto in Sage Mode is easily among the top 3 shinobi still alive. He may rely on the Rasengan and Rasenshuriken for most of his finishing moves, but realistically the rasenshuriken is far superior to just about any technique we have seen since it is an instant kill justu.

 

Depending on the area, he'd handily beat Gaara. If out of Land of Wind, Naruto has most of the advantages. Raikage would be ahead in taijutsu, but since we know both ninja to get a little crazy in a fight, it would depend on Naruto thinking ahead, something he's getting better at. The Mizukage's kekkei genkai are impressive, but I doubt Naruto will stoop to clone spam against a damn Kage. Tsuchikage, we know squat about.

... So when did you stop reading Naruto? Because the Pein/Naruto fight demonstrates his improved speed, strength and intelligence.

Really? Raikage: Taijutsu. Lee: Taijusu. Gai: Taijutsu. Gaara: Ninjutsu. Yamato: Ninjutsu. Danzo's guards: Ninjutsu. I don't see any of those possessing a well rounded repetoire of all 3 jutsu lines, yet they manage.

... So the man who outsmarted Pein, Zabuza, and Kakazu wouldn't be able to do the same to the Kages? And how is he predictable? Naruto has been anything but that since his training with Jiriaya.

... Really? What experience does he need? He's spent his ninja career fighting A-rank and S-rank criminals and demon hosts. He's more experienced than most shinobi I'd wager.

Are you kidding me? Naruto would be the perfect person to fight Danzo. He'd spam Rasenshuriken like it was going out of style, and the Kyuubi would heal him from anything. Danzo would have the advantage of genjutsu, yes, but Shisui's eye is useless for the most part (one-shot), and Izanagi only delays the inevitable.

The same sensei who fell to Pein in 5 minutes?

Demon, I don't you've been reading Naruto's power progression right. Right now, he's pretty much the most powerful shinobi in the damn verse, and his only serious opposition would be Madara, Sasuke (Kishi) and Killer Bee. The Kages would give him trouble, but I'd expect him to win in the end.

 

Sasuke (of course) is the only characters I can think of who has been shown as solidly talented with taijutsu, ninjutsu, and genjutsu. Considering the sheer variety of ninja skills in the Naruto-verse, it makes sense that most ninja will pick something to specialize in rather than trying to learn every single jutsu out there. Even Kakashi, the guy whose claim to fame is knowing a thousand different jutsus, does not use a very wide variety of attacks most of the time.

 

If Naruto can't beat Killer Bee then he definitely can't beat the Raikage. Though I do think that Bee would lose to Naruto because his attacks are too linear.

Though Gaara has gotten stronger since his Genin days, remember back in the prelims Rock Lee was able to get past his sand and rip his armor to pieces. Now that Naruto has Sage Mode, he's probably faster and stronger than Lee with 5 gates open. Also definitely faster than Deidara's clay bird, which managed to evade Gaara's sand for an obscenely long time.

Nothing much else to say that Hashasheen hasn't said already.

 

And most of them start out from genin when they specialise. Look at the rookies, Kabuto's teammates, the Rain ninja and the Oto ninja. Every single one of them (with the exception of Sakura at the time) specialised in something specific.

When did Naruto fight Killer Bee? Until they do fight, its up in the air.

Not to mention that Naruto still has his bjuu, giving him another leg up on Gaara.

Damn. Lord Raine's lengthy posts on Naruto must be getting to me.

 

Exactly; pretty much every ninja in the series has a very narrow field of specialization. Even jonin-level ninjas, who are supposed to be very well-rounded, tend to still be pretty narrowly specialized.

Howver, I would add a caveat that being specialized is not always the same as being a one-trick pony. Despite his obvious preference for taijutsu, Gai is at least good enough at ninjutsu to do summoning, and from what little we've seen of her combat skills Kurenai can fall back on decent taijutsu if her genjutsu doesn't work. While most ninjas do specialize, it's rare for someone to go down the route of Rock Lee and completely neglect all but one type of ninja skill.

 

Its not that Lee neglected to train everything. Its that he simply cant do ninjustu and genjustu.

Otherwise I agree completely. I doubt there are many Jonin who arent atleast decent at all three types of justu. Sure not everyone will be Itachi, Kakashi, or Sasuke but those are exceptional shinobi.

It all depends on how to adapt to your short comings in certain areas. For example Jiraiya had little or no talent for genjustu, and he adapted by summoning the toads to help when he needed genjustu. Its the same thing as Naruto using clones to help with the Rasengan and Rasenshuriken; he doesnt have great chakra control so he uses shadow clones to help him shape and control the chakra.

 

As I recall, canon is unclear about whether he absolutely cannot do ninjutsu and genjutsu or if it was just a matter of Lee having no talent for the field and deciding to focus all his efforts on taijutsu. Either way, the broader point remains; Lee having absolutely no ability in any area outside his chosen field of specialization is unusual.

 

Iirc Lee basically sucked at everything at his time of graduation. It wasn't until Gai trained him that his taijutsu bloomed. With that in mind Lee's inability to use ninjutsu or genjustsu seems more probable.

 

Naruto vs Jiraiya.... that would be an interesting fight, I don't think it would be as clear cut as Jiraiya>Naruto or Naruto>Jiraiya, same for Naruto vs Killer Bee.

Naruto's probably stronger than both Itachi and Sasuke on paper for example, but while I believe Naruto would beat Sasuke at the moment, in a fight between Naruto and Itachi (even the debilitated Itachi that Sasuke fought), Naruto's got no real counter for the way Itachi fights and would most probably have lost.

There's no point in trying to use llinear logic in this series.
The idea that <character 1> would beat <character 2> because <character 3> beat <character 2> and <character 1> beat <character 3> just doesn't apply here. Matching up against someone with the wrong skillset could leave you horribly mismatched.

We all know how this ends though-: Naruto v Sasuke. At first Sasuke's too strong because of darkness, hatred and the infinite sharingan® but Naruto finds his strength of will as he pictures the faces of his precious people and Jiraiya/Sarutobi/Minato all saying 'we believe in you' <insert nice-guy pose>.

 

The discussion of Academy ages and graduation a couple pages back just reminded me of something I had wondered about a couple times in the past.

How the hell did Rock Lee graduate from the ninja academy? You would think that having no skill in ninjutsu or genjutsu, and below average taijutsu would guarantee failure; after all, Naruto got failed three times for not being able to perfect one jutsu.

 

As I recall from the few episodes of filler I've actually sat down and watched, Lee compensated for his inability to perform ninjutsu or genjutsu (he doesn't have a problem with chakra, that's fanon, he just sucks at them) by using sheer speed. And, while he wasn't nearly as good as he was in the actual series, again iirc, his taijutsu was exceptional for an Academy student and his physical conditioning was excellent for a 12-year old.

 

As I recall even his taijutsu was stated to be below average while he was at the Academy.

 

My bad, then, regarding his taijutsu. My point about sheer speed still stands, but that's regardless.

In the end, CQ is right. The fact that Lee graduated from the academy without being able to perform any of the basic academy techniques, while Naruto couldn't graduate because he couldn't perform one is easily favoritism.

While we have no proof of whether or not Naruto was abused (in any way) or actively sabotaged while at the academy, it isn't much of a stretch to connect the fact that everyone ignored him to him also being ignored while at the academy. I don't remember what fic I read it in, but it's incredibly plausible for Naruto to have begun pranking in an attempt to get the attention he needed to be helped, and then attention became the end, rather than being helped.

Yes, it is fanon, I will admit that. However, as I said, it is incredibly plausible for that to be the reason why Naruto began pranking. (iirc, he actually states that he began pranking because, regardless of the kind of attention it got him, at least it got him the attention he wanted.)