I'm actually tempted to write one after all this debate, but I profess that I'd probably be a horrible person for a SI.

My proneness for wish fulfillment would inevitably lead to inserting myself in the pre-Shippuuden timeline, and then perving on Hanabi and Moegi while making Konohamaru and Akamaru do dirty, dirty things together.

Sarutobi is watching of course.

Actually, writing that out only intensified the desire. As did Menace's description of fem!Sasuke's naked body that left me in companionable companionship with the pedo bear.

 

My tl;dr regarding SIs is this: The concept of SI is inherently bad. An SI story can be good, but it will be despite the SI premise, not because of it.

 

I don't think anyone is actually arguing that SI's are inherently good, just that they, just like any other story idea, can be good. Could be wrong, since I'm not going to re-read this whole thread, but I think this is the general statement.

That said, not trusting SI's isn't a bad heuristic because of the history of horrible stories, but when someone that you trust says "Hey, this SI story is actually really good!" you might want to hesitate and give the story the benefit of the doubt before closing the tab.

 

I don't know, I think SI's have some strong points. I personally like the idea of being reborn without losing memories. Reading about adults being forced back into the role of a child can be interesting, especially if the character already has values and beliefs contrary to their new culture. And while foreknowledge can certainly ruin fics, it can also make them a lot more fun to read. Sure, I generally prefer time travel stories over SI's, but SI's can mix things up a bit.

I guess I don't really agree with you since I like to read stories that explore these circumstances, and they can be prominent in SI's because of the SI premise.

 

Foreknowledge only works as a plot device if it isn't used as an instant I Win button. It's the same thing as time travel fics; if you send your protagonist back in time/to another universe so that they have knowledge of the future, make sure they don't get their own way the whole time. In other words; keep it interesting so that even though the protagonist and readers know the canon plotline they're still hit by unexpected events.

Like I seriously wasn't expecting the first meeting with Itachi in Vapors and shit went sideways because of it, in both the short and long term. That's the kind of thing I like to see in my alternate universe stories; having it happen because of an SI just makes it a different twist compared to your regularly scheduled time travel/AU.

 

Well yes, obviously. Don't think anyone can argue against that point. And it's just another thing that falls under how well the author writes it, not really an inherent flaw in SI's (or time travel fics).

 

I don't think that's the only problem. Most people over the years have learnt to empathize with the canon characters and are already rooting for them. So when an unknown SI decides to enter the story and starts diluting the MC's role they don't take kindly to it.
Why should we prefer the SI over the main character anyway?

 

On my phone, but I will give it a try.

One way to make an Si sympathic is to make him an underdog, a nobody, someone who has the knowledge, but can't control what's happening to him.

For example, canon characters always know they might die while in service. We as readers know of ways (jutsu) to prevent this, given our different sense of self-preservation.

Random dude with commen sense saw Kakashi vs. Zabuza in the anime and the hidden Mist jutsu. He knows it's fairly easy to learn and his safest bet at this whole ninja business. He gets good at it, because it might be his life insurance someday. Naturally his superiors notice that they have a talented, smart and expendable suiton user at hand, so they decide to plant him as a mole in the rebellion in the land of water. Can random dude refuse an order from Danzo? I don't think so. Maybe he gets the hots for Mei and gets in conflict with his duty/ fear of Danzo and his morals.

Now you have a sympathic protagonist in his own adventure and canon can stay canon.

 

Of course, another way for an SI to be good is if you just make them the biggest asshole possible in a vain attempt to copy the world's greatest SI story of all time, Curb Your Enthusiasm.

 

I've been waiting to contribute to this thread because I was trying to organize my thoughts on SI fiction in general.

As for Republic's tl;dr: I don't agree but I can understand how one could arrive at this conclusion, as I'll try to make clear.

SI fanfiction can be made to work: see A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court by Mark Twain as a case in point. I think it's worth taking a moment to understand why that story works.

First off, a story needs to set out to do more than be a wish-fulfillment fixfic with the author as hero. This is the SI trap that few authors manage to break out of. Twain's objective ultimately was to write a satire on the elements he saw as contributing to the American Civil War and not just to portray Lancelot on a bicycle or show knights being dehorsed by clever application of a lasso.

A Connecticut Yankee begins with elements of "I win, because technology," but then an avalanche of butterflies disabuses Hank Morgan of this. In the end, despite his many advantages, he really didn't seem to accomplish anything, save for making things worse. And given the way Twain's prose gets progressively darker and nastier throughout, it's pretty clear that his development mirrors this overarching sense of impotence and futility. The book was ultimately an allegory for the idiocy of (Southern) honor over reason--the climax was essentially Pickett's charge--and Morgan comes out of it changed, as if he had gone through the Civil War himself.

Vapors has an echo of this type development, if much less coherent, of a larger progression of character. Aiko does become morally ambiguous by the end, arguably a much different person from her former self. Though I found the protag to be largely unsympathetic pretty long before then, she has at least this going for her. In contrast, Dreaming of Sunshine seems stuck in fixfic mode as it navigates the various anime arcs. This character-development marking of time is why I think it will fail to live up to its promise.

Because the thing that gets me about the way most SI is written is that even an SI has to have character development. The challenge of writing oneself and then writing meaningful change of oneself in response to circumstances is, to me, the real reason why good SI is so hard to find. There's always a filter because it's no longer a make believe character, but it's you, out there, on the pages, showing all your frailties and foibles to the world. Or (often as not), not, which gives the thing a sheen of dishonesty that readers pick up on (see all the comments about the inevitability of going the Mary Sue route). Sure, you as the author might think you know yourself, but do you really know how you'd respond to some of the more dramatic events of canon? To how, say, you'd come out of a near-death experience, a kidnapping, or being forced to kill one of your comrades in cold blood? Do you truly understand yourself at that level of granularity? I know I don't, which is why I couldn't write a convincing SI.

I'm sorry if this doesn't add much to the thread, but it's, to me, the biggest question with respect to my picking up an SI: am I reading about a real person or a static idealization of the author?

 

I believe an author shouldn't restrict himself to his very self all the time. He could use a Si as a way to implement a protagonist with certain traits (looks, basic character, values) and special circumstances (knowledge, commen sense, no ties to canon) in a fantasy world and go from there using creativ freedom to write a good story.

I mean, if I were to land in asoiaf I would be dead in about half a day. It's a true si and shitty story.

A Si should be the starting point or the introduction of the protagonist and not much more.

 

So that brings us to the question what role can an SI play in a fanfic? I think the only way to write a non-controversial SI would be to give them an original story, one that has little to do with canon events. That way it can sustain its importance without pissing over the canon MCs.
It can be something of a double-edged sword. While the author won't have the luxury of using canon events they won't be limited by them either.

It will require some serious skills to pull off but if you don't have them you shouldn't be trying it in the first place.

 

I'm not sure why you're so set on preserving canon. A lot of the fun of fanfiction comes from changing the main events and the ways the main characters develop. If a well written SI manages to disrupt the flow of canon, the fic will likely be more entertaining.

 

I think people keep misinterpreting what crimson sun is saying. He's made the same argument phrased several different ways now. I think his argument is this: no matter how well written, it's bad form to give an OC a canon character's canon achievements. For example, OC replaces Sakura. Chuunin Exams go more or less the same way, except OC saves the village from Gaara and even does Naruto's Talk-no-Jutsu, taking over the role Naruto filled without really adding anything. Why? When someone does that, does it not feel to you like a giant shit was taken all over canon?

There's a tendency in the Naruto fandom for all stories to go: bell test, wave arc, chuunin exam arc with sand/sound invasion, Godaime Hokage fetch quest, emo Uchiha fetch quest, Godaime Kazekage fetch quest, emo Uchiha fetch quest dos, Pein arc. Naruto ultimately doesn't need help to get through any of that. When an OC comes in "to help" and then starts doing what Naruto himself did in canon, it reeks of Fixer!Sue.

If you break the cycle, I don't think the same complaints can be made.

 

See, I can't quite reconcile the whole "well written" thing with a fix-it fic that adheres strictly to canon. Those show a lack of creativity and planning, so even if technical writing is fine, it's still a poorly written story.

To me, that sounds like crimson is saying that the bad SI's are bad. Which really should go without saying.

 

My feelings on the matter not withstanding, I just suggested a way for writing an SI that won't offend anyone. Especially those opposed to SIs on principle, myself included.

 

Ah. Well, it's a decent enough idea, and I've seen it pulled off in one shots. But I've read a longer SI that had very little to do with canon events or characters, and was boring because of it.

 

Just for the record. I AM NOT against changing canon events. It would make me a hypocrite if I was. I do however mind when an SI changes canon events to make themselves look better than the MC that's all.

A lot of people are okay with it and that's fine and I've already explained why I'm not, probably a dozen times by now. So lets just agree to disagree.

Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be. You just accused me of setting on preserving canon and yet it seems you have a problem when things deviated from it.

 

I think this is my problem with your stance more than anything else. I don't put much stock in trying not to offend people, because offence is taken, not given.

If I set out to write a story it's because I want to write that story and (if I put it out on the net) others might enjoy it too. So I primarily set out to write what I think would be interesting. That includes occasionally fucking over canon characters because there is no holy standard that you have to hold to; if the story is good, it's good because you've written it well, not because you've adhered to certain rules.

 

Now you're just looking for an argument for argument's sake. Considering you ignored my subsequent post where I've said

I find the concept stupid, but I really don't have anything against those who enjoy it. To each their own I say.
And please avoid getting personal. I don't believe I've given you reason to yet and you're getting awfully close.