100% agree. I always saw occlumency as being able to block intrusion by ejecting someone form your mind(apparently vital for Harry in OotP) or to hide your thoughts.

That would be unless Snape had nothing to hide, being on Voldemorts side and all

 

Totally have to agree with you. I think Dimensional Trunk has a pretty good grasp on it. Yeah it talks about having shields, but also on how to "lie" to a legilimens by ejecting thoughts before they are seen and replacing them. Only thing about that story is its h/g and the grammar blows.
Now Vorlon666 had a pretty good idea in Scorpion Sorcerer where Harry basically sets up his occulmency wards like a hard drive and then encrypts them with his magical signature. But I think in that story he wasn't trying to mislead or lie, just lock everyone out.
10ded

 

I agree with you but I think people make the shield as another way to show how much more powerful Harry is than normal people.

The idea is stupid and I always just though of it as Snape said "Clear your mind"

Having it as a shield gives a symbolic point. It shows Harry as a equel to Voldemort by being able to block him.

 

I think Occlumency protects the mind by using decoys/red herrings.

 

It has always seemed to me that the key here is what denotes a MASTER of Occlumency; it would make sense that a lesser but still skilled user could block intrusions, but would be obvious about it. A master, like Snape, could block without the attacker knowing he's blocking. Perhaps a multilayered approach, where Voldemort would perceive Snape's ability to block his thoughts, but isn't (at least to his perspective).

-J

 

I agree with you, Jeram. It seems reasonable to me that one should take steps, and the first step to mastering the technique is just being able to block the intrusion in the first place. Learn to put up the shields, and then learn to change them, or manipulate them to serve you. Then...progress to a point where you don't even need shields, where you are so in control of your own mind, especially when it is being penetrated, that you can hide anything you wish--present whatever emotion or memory you wish, etc.

One Occlumency fic I've read that sort of followed that trend is Of Ordinary Wizards. Pretty good fic...*wonders if it is in the Library*

 

Just to bring up a point for discussion: If you can't fake a memory for a pensieve, how can you fake one (on the fly) for someone trying to read your mind? If even a copied thought can't be faked, how do you fake a thought that's currently in your head? How do you do that while you're, say, being held under the Cruciatus or while in the midst of dueling?

Or can that simply be attributed to part of the magic of pensieves?

 

I don't think you can "fake a memory"--but surely you can send out feelings contrary to what you are actually experiencing to give a certain illusion to your intruder.

I also don't think your defenses would last under the torture curse, either, but then I don't think there is any room in a person's mind when they are being tortured for anything but to focus on the immense pain they're feeling.

For a master like Snape, if he was tortured, and then Vold sent out a Legilimens, it seems like Snape would simply concentrate on how much he is hurting, and nothing else.......ish?

EDIT: and furthermore, Occlumency is more complicated than simply reading memories. It's the emotions attached to those memories that gives the intruder what he's looking for, right?

 

*Raises two thumbs*

That fact that in the canon, Harry is no good at it and Snape is, proves that it is a subtle art. A far cry away from simply throwing up a shield as if you're dueling.

 

Slughorn did it.

 

Poorly, and it was noticed immediately.

 

But Dumbledore points out that this isn't a very good fake, which leads us to believe that there are better ones.

I would think that creating fake memories would be an intracal part of the memory charm. If we're to say the Legilimency is the art the permits you to do this, that would mean that Lockehart was quite skilled in the area. That doesn't make sense to me.

 

It's unlikely Leglimency would be used to fake memories. Leglimency is a method of attack - of getting into another person's head and fucking around with them. I figure it's best to think of Occlumency being inclusive of things inside your own head, and Leglimency of stuff in other people's heads. Memory charms may also have different levels of skill - there's nothing in canon to suggest that Lockhart wasn't just being a pompous ass saying he was 'gifted' with memory charms. Those people he stole the stories off might well be as braindead as he ends up.

'Shields' are pretty much a way for an author who can't be bothered to think of a better method getting Harry er...good...at Occlumency. They provide a nice, simple way to deter intruders, because all Harry has to do is slam up his shields and then sneer at a predictably enraged Dumbledore/Snape for failing to mindrape him. It pretty much disregards everything in canon refering to the mind not being an open book to be read at will.

 

When did he do that? Most I can remember is a botched attempt at obliviation to cover up the Tom Riddle/horcrux thing.

I always imagined occlumency as being an art that took years to master, not all this meditation and building up shields over a few months - does Snape look like the type of guy who meditates?

I imagine it would be more like clouding your mind in a thick fog of magic, leading to hiding them in a void (like hiding them in darkness) and finally creating an illusion of a normal mind. Plus there's the whole 'focus on one image so they can't find anything' method, but that's for last ditch desperation.

 

Memory charms, sure, but not Occlumency or Legilimency. Neither focus singularly on memories, but on emotions as well. One wouldn't need to create a fake memory to defend himself against Legilimency--he would simply keep the memories he would not wish for the intruder to see hidden.

 

Through Snape having the skill to trick Voldemort, I believe Occlumency is a subtle skill, which can be hid from any Legillimens. If you are good at Occlumency, a Legillimens will not know it. They will believe anything they see from your mind, even if you can hide what they are looking for.

I do not believe that a Legillimens can watch your memories without the spell that Snape has used many times on Harry, so I only think Voldemort uses it to detect the emotions of Snape when he's talking.

If he's lying, telling the truth, emotional when he shouldn't be. not emotional when he should be, things like that.

 

Snape said at the start of their lessons that Harry should do well because he could block the Imperious curse. To me, and in my story, it's a matter of will. Master Occlumency is a different story, as it would be a matter of deception, but I think for Harry it will be a matter of marking his territory. I see it as, "This is my mind, asshole, get out" for Harry. It's the only way I see him becoming proficient at it.

 

I think it's gotta be both, remember in OOTP, when Snape just completely rejected Harry. I don't think Harry will be able to lead people away within the seven books, and when we need him to learn it quick, we usually go with the Harry-ejects method.