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Abandoned Out of the Night by Raining Ink - T

Discussion in 'Dark Arts' started by Philly Homer, Aug 18, 2009.

  1. Garden

    Garden Minister of Magic

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    @above
    2. Draco in HPB hadn't tried to kill the parents of his best friend minutes or seconds before. Its absolutely ridiculous to compare the two situations. Harry takes threats to friends much worse than he takes threats to himself. Draco, in HPB, curses out of instinct, and doesn't actually harm Harry. In this story you have a death eater participating in the torture and killing of Hermione's parents, or at least guarding the people who are, and Harry feeling guilty about his death. There's no comparison between the two situations. The story's weakness is found here; it glosses over the fact that the people who are dark wizards here are murdering shit. Interesting ideas, but this problem prevents the story from being a great, or even good one.

    3.
     
  2. samkar

    samkar Temporarily Banhammered

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    I wrote "*!*slash" here but the vibration of Harry's interaction with Draco could have happened in any other slash story.

    I think it's pretty much canon that the purebloods control the ministry of magic and a lot of these pureblood families are part of this dark magic cult.

    Uncomfortable doesn't match it. Would you feel just uncomfortable meeting a killer who is partly responsible for your godfather's death and which wants to see yourself dead? The only realistic feeling here is hate and a wish to kill the bastard. Sure, you can now argue DH doesn't show such feelings either but DH is really weak especially about Lucius Malfoy.

    The situation between Harry/Draco in HBP is different. Harry assumes Draco being a DE plotting something but in this story the guy was involved torturing and killing Hermione's parents, planning to kill Hermione and use a deathly curse on Harry who just used a protego. Getting moral problems here doesn't work for me at all.

    I mean their brand of magic. I have never got the impression from Dumbledore that he is blind or thinks about magic in the distinction she made in her story. She defines dark magic not as magic with questionable ethic/moral and legal issues but as magic based on different philosophical/religious belief "closer" to magic/nature/gods. Just think bigger here, even if this dark magic cult's practices are forbidden in england why should it be different elsewhere? And with Dumbledore as the head of ICW, knowing a lot people and their magical practices how could he not know or detect that kind?

    Don't get me wrong here, I think it's worth exploring such magic differences but not by redefining terms. Do you really need to use the term dark magic to define some cult which uses rituals to manipulate magic, maybe believes in old gods(whatever). If you redefine terms you always cause problems and in this specific case was it really necessary for the story's essence?
     
  3. Tharkun

    Tharkun Second Year

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    I will have to trust you on this, since I do not read slash stories.

    Yes, the purebloods control the ministry. Still, I see no evidence that the dark pureblood families outnumber the light ones. We do know that Voldemort has eradicated a number of traditional light families, but we do not know how many remain.

    I think that Harry mostly blames Bellatrix for Sirius' death. Still, I have to agree with you that the way in which Harry manages to remain composed is a bit out of character.

    Regarding Harry's altercation with Davan: I do not get the impression that Harry wishes he would have done anything different - he just wished it weren't necessary to cross wands with a classmate in battle.

    I do not understand your point about Dumbledore. Do you mean it is unlikely that he wouldn't know a way to see Dark Marks?
     
  4. IdSayWhyNot

    IdSayWhyNot Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

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    Too much fanon, my friend.

    The political aspects haven't been explored in detail yet. While you could argue that the Malfoys have some influence in the Ministry, you can't say the same for the Lestranges or the Blacks; these two are either convicted criminals or dead. The Malfoys could push toward some sort of law reform, but to what extent? If the "Dark wizard" stigma is as bad as the author makes it out to be, then no matter how influential you are, changing the laws would be impossible. Just imagine, for example, trying to convince people in the XII century that magic is just dandy and completely harmless.

    The author explains in rather extensive detail how the conflict between Dark and Light came to be, and how it degenerated into the predujice you see today. There's even an anecdote or two of how Dark wizards manipulated ambient magic and how wizards came to develop some inner magic, later coming to believe that ambient magic was too powerful and all that was needed was the inner magic. No need to add further details to the history of it.

    First, the DE who Harry almost kills was in no way related to his parents' murder. That DE was just a kid, hardly any older than him. He would've been forced to beat James and Lily over the head with a teddy bear to help in their deaths, or strangle them with his umbilical chord.

    EDIT: Hasty read. Thought you meant Harry's parents, not Hermione's... My bad. You're right about that. Is one of the weakest points in this story. I don't understand how Harry can fight Death Eaters if all (or most) are Dark wizards. Further, feeling guilty comes from himself, not magic's "rule" about not killing each other. But, you could argue that Devan (that's the one that almost gets killed) wasn't really all there yet. He's still young and educated to think Voldemort is the way to go. I think the author is trying to put Dark wizards in a grey area when it comes to their motives, but doesn't quite succeed.

    As to his dealings with the Malfoys, the Draco part is well done, I think. The author first portrays this whole new world within the magical world to Harry. He begins to see there's something more than the old Death Eaters Vs OOTP. Draco was born into a different world. His upbringing is hardly something to hold against him. Harry understanding this, and seeing how Draco can be someone other than that annoying Slytherin, goes a long way toward convincing him he's not all that bad.

    The Lucius part was rather weaker, IMO. Harry meets him as Hapheastus (sp?) in that library sanctuary, after Draco insists in introducing them. I think the author could've made it more believable had Harry refused the first offer, arguing he was running late or something, and then stumbling upon Draco and Lucius some other time (the library, again, would work, as Harry knows that should he be discovered, no hard could come to him).

    How do you know he isn't aware of it? I'm sure he knows, seeing he was friends with Grindelwald for a time. Plus, it's Dumbledore; he knows. Knowing about it doesn't mean he'll spot Harry for what he is when they meet, though.

    There's also a bit in the Hogwarts Express when Dumbledore talks to Harry that seems to imply he suspects Harry has done something...unwise. Right before he leaves, after talking about his coursework, he specifically asks why Harry suddenly decided on Astronomy and Ancient Runes (two important subjects for Dark wizards, for their relevance in rituals). Nothing is outright said, but Dumbledore in this story is not an idiot (thank God) and there's nothing to suggest he doesn't know about Dark magic. He could be putting the pieces together, which means it'll blow up in Harry's face eventually.

    I disagree. First, she has explicitly stated there would be no slash, or at least no HPDM slash. It wouldn't make sense to drive away the readers who enjoy that sort of thing if she were indeed planning on writing it.

    And secondly, I don't think you need a "strong suspension of disbelief to really accept her world as deep." The setting is there, the characters are well done (even if Harry is a little off, IMO), there is conflict, the history of the conflict is explained excellently, and Knockturn Alley is very well done (perhaps not publishable level, but then, no more than 8 fics are, IMO).

    With this I agree. I particularly like the author's view of magic as a tool vs magic as a way of life. All the little things Harry learns and starts getting used to are great, as they feel more in line with the wizarding world I always imagined. Fanon usually breaks down magic into a weapon, more often than not neglecting the fact that only a small percentage of the population seems to be skilled enough (or prone to) battle, whereas the rest simply use magic to live comfortably.


    TL;DR: I think I've rated this story before. Gave it a 4/5. The idea is awesome and the execution is good. The only problem I see with it, other than Harry being a little too willing to "embrace the Dark", is that the author spends too much time describing things that are not really relevant and could be mentioned in passing, or delving into other people's POVs that don't add to the story or characters, only serving to explain how other people view Harry, which can be done implicitly.

    Still, a nice read. The way she handles Hogwarts, people learning about Harry being Dark and Harry going against Voldemort (keeping in mind he can't kill fellow Dark wizards) will make or break this story. Or the pace could kill it, too, if she insists on taking 30 chapters to get through the summer.


    EDIT: Ninja'd, like a boss. Apparently you shouldn't go to class before finishing a post. My bad.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2011
  5. samkar

    samkar Temporarily Banhammered

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    Malfoy and several of his "friends" could escape justice because they weren't caught in the act and had the money+influence to escape justice. That's canon. Who are the so called "light" families here which control the ministry against the so called "dark" families which feel threatened for their existence?

    From canon I can only see dark pureblood families who influence the laws and then either corrupt people like Fudge or sadistic control bigots like Umbridge do their bidding.

    Just look into OOTP which people Umbridge tries to butter up in her little inquisition's prefect replacement. They were obviously the more important pureblood families which keep Fudge and herself in control in the ministry.

    Arthur Weasley is the primary light family we know of but he has no influence in the administration. We know of Bones as fair but she's not part of Dumbledore's little organisation, while her brother was. And can you imagine Arthur Weasley, Dumbledore or Bones being able to condemn somebody else not because they did something evil against their their own moral code of conduct but have a different connection and believe how magic should be practiced? I can't see that at all.

    But I could see a certain class of purebloods connected to Malfoy using the Ministry to suppress magic usage which endangers their position of control and I gave the example how to reason the rift with the norman invasion for instance.

    It would have been a lot more believable *but* then it wouldn't have been a story about Harry and Draco together discovering a new side of DEs but a story about Harry discovering different usages of magic and different shades of society and deeper truths about the current structure of the magical society and its controlling mechanisms. I think the last one would have made a lot better story background than what she focused on.

    Yes, I've read that and I have no problem with a different brand of magic here which is suppressed. My problem here is with the people which she used as the suppressed part of society. I can't see Malfoy+co. as the suppressed part and her redefining of what dark magic is. She could have used terms like free, chaotic, deep, true, whatever magic perhaps.

    Ask yourself, can you detect any of Draco's canon personality traits besides vainness in this interpretation of Draco? I can't. He's almost completely OC, a sign for the writer's true reading preferences I think than a believable spin of a version of Draco with a broader background.

    The concept of the library and Lucius being able to use a portkey from Azkaban to get there is ridiculous too.

    I thought here more about the Occlumence blood potion. Something which is "dark magic" because of the usage of blood. Something *this* Dumbledore has problems to use while Dumbledore created blood wards himself to protect Harry at the Dursleys.

    Here I see a break into how I perceive Dumbledore's competence and character with the story's version. I can't see him having any kind of problems of using freely given blood or blood used for his greater good if it doesn't really hurt somebody. Canon Dumbledore looks at people from a choices perspective to do good or evil and I can't see him being limited by philosophical limitations at all but that's what this story is about.
    Beyond that read my previous comment about Dumbledore's ICW and international magical usage.

    You missed the *!*=NOT sign here. The story strongly radiates slash between Harry/Draco because that's what the writer consumes otherwise. The behavior pattern between Harry and Draco isn't normal male behavior at all and are the reasons why people asked her if she writes slash here which she denied. But the style is far too visible to not being noticed and her profile clearly shows where her tastes are.

    Well, I do need that sense but obviously you don't. This forum and a lot of reviews should show that people read stories differently as their perceptions differ. I can't understand why she is able to create so great unique OCs in Knockturn but fail in interpreting and developing the cannon defined characters in a logical and therefore believable way to me. Only Snape here is somehow believable in his role.

    I can't really rate this story because it's fluctuating between 1 and 5 for me. Therefore my long comments here, it really irks me:)

    P.S. I'm no canon totalitarian but I require a believable starting point+progress to accept non canon development. If somebody defines something as different without making an effort to sell that difference believable to the reader I get a problem while reading it.
     
  6. Tenages

    Tenages Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    Dumbledore has a rather large amount of influence. I'd say he counts as "light". Certainly families like the Bones are seen as having power, and fight Voldemort. You could probably put the Barty Crouch Sr. in this category as well.

    No, from canon you see exactly one dark family (the Malfoy's) with exorbitant influence in the Ministry. Other than that it isn't really fleshed out. If the Ministry was nearly as "dark-controlled" and biased as you claim, then Voldemort would have no need to fight, and Harry wouldn't have been acquitted in OOTP.

    Hos are they obviously the more important pureblood families? In fact how is Umbridge buttering them up? She's on a vendetta against Potter and Dumbledore, so she recruits a bunch of students who are known antagonists of Potter, and gives them power to help enforce her regime of terror. It tells us literally nothing about the power structure in Britain. All it tells us is that Malfoy and co. hated Harry, were dicks, and liked tormenting people.

     
  7. CareOtters

    CareOtters Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    The whole argument on whether light or dark families have influence in the Ministry is flawed.

    Dark magic exists. Light magic doesn't.

    Light magic is entirely a fanon creation. Not once, in the actual books, is "light magic" or the "light side" of the war against Voldemort mentioned. There's no holy/unholy divide.

    "Dark arts" - bad stuff. "Light arts" - doesn't exist, because there's no unifying force of good. Magic used for the benefit of the self and others, as opposed to dark magic, is what magic does. You have dark magic and magic. No such thing as the light.

    I'd love to see a light side portrayed as I imagine it whenever I hear the words: crusader!Harry.

    "Light" families have more influence than dark ones because that annoyingly fanon term encompasses everyone else.
     
  8. Tenages

    Tenages Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    The argument put forward was that Malfoy and the other Death eater families have so much influence they control the ministry. The counter-argument being made is that no they don't.

    The terms "light" and "dark" aren't being used as actual views on magic (in the debate on canon, they are used as meaningful labels in the story) so much as an easy way to differentiate between the groups. It has to be done for the purposes of the debate, and for ease of use people want short, easy to categorized terms. Hence "dark families" and "light families."

    Just because the terms are flawed doesn't mean that debate is. The debate is whether Malfoy and other Death Eater families control the Ministry and political process. The existence or lack thereof of "light magic" has no bearing on that debate.
     
  9. Vincent

    Vincent Death Eater

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    I was thinking that dark families had some sort of bond through magic and that's primarily why Harry was bothered when he hurt that DE. I think I remember it being mentioned that dark wizards fighting their own was very nasty business.

    I don't think dark magic is all that detectable. If it was then they'd have had a hard time hiding in plain site. Albus probably isn't the first head of the ICW and since blood portkeys are illegal everywhere but wizarding Canada then dark magic usage is likely illegal in most countries.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  10. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Not really sure what the purpose of the debate here is.

    Throwing canon facts as an objection to an AU doesn't make much sense. It would be like telling The Santi that his story is rubbish because the Potters didn't have twins. When reading AU fics, the point is that you take the premise/divergence as a given, and then judge it from thereon out.
     
  11. samkar

    samkar Temporarily Banhammered

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    But that divergence is after OOTP and not before. Santi's story is at least AU since 1981 and he develops the changes from the beginning in a believable manner to me. To be blunt, even mentioning Santi's story in a context to this one is a bit ridiculous.
     
  12. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Except not really. The "divergence" in this story goes back to whenever magic began - well before 1981. It's not a canon-compliant divergence, it's a complete AU.
     
  13. KrzaQ

    KrzaQ Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    But it's an AU that doesn't make sense. MPreg could be considered AU under your theory, but it doesn't make it any more believable. Or readable.
     
  14. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    The problem with MPreg is not its believability.

    Also, what exactly doesn't make sense about the AU? There are things that I think don't make sense in the story, but they're related to the characters, not the world.
     
  15. SeraAnexia

    SeraAnexia Muggle

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    I respect the author a great deal, however with time I have come to feel disappointed with this Fic. For me specifically, it is the Dark Community that bothers me the most.
    At first, it was exciting to dive into what could be the Dark Community, but now it just seems too tame. Perhaps if it were a tad more cannon I would have a larger interest.
    Even so, I am hopeful and therefore still count this Fanfic in my top ten... for now.
     
  16. Greener

    Greener Sixth Year

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    Not a necro, but a new chapter... imagine that.


    Ok, now off to read...
     
  17. Anarchy

    Anarchy Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    Cool, now I have excuse to completely read through this story for the 4th time, despite knowing exactly where it left off.
     
  18. Imariel

    Imariel Order Member DLP Supporter

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    Now I kind of regret my summer reread of all my favourite stories, seeing as I couldn't make myself read this story again due to the fact that I read it approximately 7 days ago.

    However, I've read the new chapter and while it isn't a great one, Raining Ink's forum post indicates more chapters are coming at a regular pace now.
    Apparantly he/she had a fanfiction addiction and has been avoiding the scene altogheter to kick the habit.

    The chapter itself is per usual quite well written, though lacking the part that actually makes the story interesting to me, the dark societal aspects.
    It does however continue to evolve Harrys relationship with the dark children, something which naturally will be quite relevant in the coming chapters.
     
  19. Johndoe022

    Johndoe022 Third Year

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    This is one of my favorite fanfics....well it's in the top 30 or so anyway. Just reading it is refreshing and I can't really pinpoint why.
     
  20. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Re-read this in its entirety yesterday, and it's tempting to do the same again today.

    This fic was always great. But read all together, rather than in installments separated out, it's simply amazing.

    I still have problems with the believably of the Dark/light magic system resulting in the modern magical world as we see it (how is Dumbledore able to equal Voldemort but also a light wizard? Is Voldemort a light wizard too?) but this disbelief is easy to suspend. Once I have that problem out of the way, the story is flawless in both world and character.