It could be that I'm confusing it with a fic, but wasn't it stated that only beings with souls can change and someone like Mab is unable to act against her nature? Then again if Sidhe don't have souls, does it mean that Molly is actually dead or will be soon enough?

 

I liked Molly becoming Lady Winter, I do not like what happened with Butters. I only read the series for the first time last year, I'm nearly finished with a re-read now and my opinions have shifted a lot. I can't stand Murphy now. Dresden outgrew her like 10 books ago yet she keeps getting shoehorned in. She doesn't know what she's talking about like 95% of the time yet always has an opinion that Butcher treats as relevant. She's out of her element and I really hope she dies in Peace Talks and that she stays that way.

 

Really, I don't find any characters particularly offensive. Butter's was doing his best to help out while Harry was away, and he got in over his head trying to keep folks safe. He had the question of faith posed to him, whether he would have faith in Harry, and I think the concept of having such faith in a friend that you can become a Knight is more fun than just traditionally having faith in God to be chosen.

Murphy's fine. She's not my choice for a main female character, but her motivations are pretty clear and understandable, and I find it difficult to hate someone when I understand where they're coming from.

Molly is just kinda... away. She's been far off, altered majorly, and we haven't had enough time with her back to judge what's really going on.

 

Yeah I get the sense that Butcher is deliberately avoiding writing Winter Lady Molly because it's too difficult to write her in a way that correctly balances her original character with her new mantle, and which walks the tightrope of writing her relationship with Harry in a way that doesn't make the reader hate her.

 

I really like Butters as a character, but he's near 50 now and not well suited to his new career.

 

Butcher definitely has trouble writing female characters. The whole Winter Knight increased libido thing hasn't helped, although AT LEAST there's SOME narrative justification for Dresden's overly-sexed perspective now.

I was unimpressed by Butcher knighting Butters, so no argument from me there. I'm ambivalent on Winter *Lady [mistakenly wrote "Knight", my b] Molly EXCEPT on the matter of her relationship with Dresden. I'll be hugely disappointed if it ever progresses (regresses?) into something like romance. It's boring, predictable and, not to mention, icky. On the other hand, I'm actually intrigued by the shift of power (Molly going from Dresden's apprentice to virtually his superior) and how both of them navigate this new dynamic opens up interesting stuff character-wise.

I'll be honest and say that I don't understand the Murphy hate. Granted, I haven't taken the time to pore over the books and re-examine her choices and their consequences, but generally I've empathized with her motivations. As one of the last vanilla mortals of some significance in the series, I feel that most of the time she's at a disadvantage vis-à-vis her abilities, resources and knowledge. Yes, she can be willful, arrogant, sometimes entitled (likely having to compensate as one of the lone women in her field) and loyal to a fault, but she tries to do the right thing, stands by and loves Dresden and co., and is quite complex in comparison to others. If Harry wasn't a wizard, he'd behave similarly, in many respects. I'd like to see her stick around, but if Butcher does decide to kill her off, I think she has maintained her dignity as one of the series' more dimensional(?) characters.

 

I always got the impression that this was a mixture of self-insert and fan service for those super-fans that really loved the character, so he got upgraded to the super-side character he is today. I also don't love it.

I liked Molly and wanted Butcher to shift the romance from Murphy to her, but wouldn't have been upset if he didn't. That said, the fact that Harry has been Winter Knight under her for seemingly forever (how many years, in terms of publication dates?) and they haven't had any meaningful interactions makes it seem more like avoidance on his part, and that's upsetting to me.

 

I guess it hasn't been that long, in terms of the series chronology? A couple of years, at most? I'm shooting from the hip, here, too lazy to look it up. Mab has had her reasons for keeping the two separate in the past and I'm sure Dresden isn't exactly rushing to begin a relationship of a professional capacity with her, considering the history of their predecessors. And to be honest, even if Butcher decides to take them into a romantic place, provided it's done well, I won't complain too much - but I still wouldn't bet on it. Murphy just makes more sense to me, as a romantic partner (personality-wise) for Harry. Not to mention Molly's potentially declining humanity, which further complicates matters.

 

The point about it not being long in-universe is probably true -- Peace Talks being a few months after Skin Games, and him being on the island before then (I think? Again, been so long since the last ones came out).

It just seems longer because it's been almost seven years since Cold Days came out, and he wrote seven books the seven years before that. We're like to get a lot of clarification with the next couple books coming out before October.

 

I liked Butters a great deal.

Until the recent bullshit. Panicky, nerdy everyman who nonetheless showa up when needed? Mortician who picks up in the supernatural by examining weird corpses and getting suspicious, ends up as a field medic to a wizard by default even though he's squeamish about blood from living people? One man polka band? All kooky but cool character traits.

He was the mortal foil to Dresden in the latter half of the series, a scientifically literate mouthpiece to comment on how nuts the things magic does are.

Turning this into jewish jedi batman of the cross undermines everything good his character brought to the table.

 

It's been about two years in universe since the end of Cold Days, iirc. But keep in mind, the first year Dresden was confined to Demonreach to keep the "entity" in check (post-Cold Days), and Mab was actively keeping Molly away from him so that she wouldn't be able to help Dresden, and Mab could use his imminent and painful death as leverage for the events of Skin Game. Or so she claimed, anyway. Doubtless there were other reasons as well.

It should be close to a second year between the end of Skin Game and the beginning of Peace Talks. Maybe half a year, but there have been two(?) short stories released that are chronologically between Skin Game and Peace Talks, Jury Duty and Zoo Day, both of which seem to suggest a decent amount of time has passed since the end of Skin Game.

Edit: Personally, I think people are being a bit hard on Butters. Yes, if he had picked up the sword as his character was intially introduced, it would be beyond insane. People seem to forget, though, that it was Dresden's own constant pushing for him to try to be more then a simple mortician that made him decide to fight supernatural crime for an entire year when Dresden was dead. With nothing more then an admittedly powerful spirit, his wits, and a magical skateboard. I know Ghost Story gives most people PTSD-esque flashbacks, but it is still canon, lol. Further, if you read his short story, he's still really not a spectacular fighter. Powerful magic sword or no, he's still quite reliant on his wits.

That all being said, does his ascension still come across as a bit cringey/fanservicey? Sure. But I'd argue he's still fundamentally the same character we saw back in Dead Beat. Y'know, when he stared down a horde of undead with nothing more then some chalk and a polka suit. And that unhesitantly made that decision:

 

I apologize, @Otters, yes I agree with you. Pre-Dresden's death, I considered Butters a good and actively entertaining character. It's his post-dead Dresden leveled-up character that I was referring to.

 

Honestly, I don't even particularly mind Butters being a Knight or magical batman or whatever.

I just hate the fucking lightsaber. It's the distillation of everything that's gone wrong with the Dresden Files as a series over its run, and I can't fucking stand it.

 

I can understand shitting on the lightsaber. It personally doesn't bother me that much, but it's pretty cringey, yeah. The scene works okay in the moment, but overall it's a pretty dumb bit of fan service.

 

The lightsaber could have been okay, if it had been handled better.

There were hints of potential.

Metal broken, but faith endures. The container for power was shattered, but that just served to let the magic free.

If, as was initially suggested, Charity had caught the sword, and the lightsaber had not been a star wars reference, just a sword with a blade of light, it would have been alright. Have that as a temporary flare up of divine protection which fades away after a single fight, allowing for the sword to be reforged, and I'm down. Hell, it's even fitting with Charity's role as the one who forged Michael's armour before he retired.

The only downside is the slight reminder of Molly Weasley versus Bellatrix, but Charity Carpenter is no dumpy housewife. She's a dragon-sacrificed former witch who surrendered her power for faith. Plus the sparring partner for the man who bore the epithet of the Fist of God.

The fan service could even still be present with Dresden and Butters insisting that the sword is now a lightsaber even though there's only a passing resemblance. It would play into the nerdy archetype Butcher loves to fellate and mirror his sense of humour (re: Burger King, parkour, literally every pop culture reference)

The lightsaber noises and the fact that Butters' plot throughout this book was focused on his lack of faith in Dresden broke my suspension of disbelief. And I'm willing to suspend a whole load of disbelief.

I did like the moment where Uriel tells Dresden he prefers Star Wars to Star Trek because of the simplicity of how it poses good and evil. That was an example of how pop culture references could add to the setting rather than detract from it.

 

I want to agree about the lightsaber being the most egregious part, but to be honest I think that's just where my realizations at my dislike about Super!Butters crystallized.

I think this has gotten particularly bad in the most recent books, given that Harry Dresden is supposed to be stuck with like drive-in theater references and it seemed like he kept with the times just a bit too much.

 

I could dig Harry making nerdy references, because that's part of his character. If you want to really read into when he references pop culture to various inhuman entities you could interpret it as him subconsciously using it draw a line between the spooky side and mortal humanity in such a way that he is clearly on the human side, and he does miss out on things, like the scene where he vaguely reveals that Butters is a raid leader in some MMO, but does it in such a way that shows he doesn't really know what that is.

But Butters turning his faith in Star Wars into a lightsaber, and Uriel chiming in that he likes the music made me cringe and took me out of the moment because it was Jim Butcher geeking out, not Harry Dresden.

 

I'm not sure how long it is between Skin Game and Peace Talks, however it's two and a half years between Chicken Itza and Skin Game. ~one year dead, a few months in Artcus Tor, then a year and a half on the Island between Cold Days and Skin Game. In that time Harry is only active two days as a ghost, one during Cold Days, and a couple during Skin Game.

During that year and a half Molly never came to visit Dresden for plot reasons, Mab was interfering so she could control Harry with the threat of his head exploding. I don't think the criticism that Butcher doesn't know how to write Molly has any merit, since she's just not been a part of the recent books. The proper complaint is that it's taken three books to wrap up Changes when it should've been done in one.

 

I was considering how Butcher can fit thematically the Outsiders and God as the Creator of everything that is suppose to be the fact in this setting. While it could be that some beings are simply as old as God, similar to how Supernatural handles it, there is twist to their identity that could work too.

What if the Outsiders are humans who believed themselves equal to God and decided to leave his reality? They built the Outer Gates like in the Bible humans did the Tower of Babel, which could be their history, but changed to avoid anyone repeating their attempt, and left the world to make their own. Only, while they had the necessary power of creation gifted to them by God, their stay on the Outside twisted their mentality and their bodies and now all they want is to get back. Additionally, the last Law of Magic is not only about letting things in, but going Outside to avoid making more Outsiders.

 

My understanding was simply that the White God is the god of the universe that exists; the Outsiders are beings from outside the universe and therefore outside of the White God's authority/power. If the Outsiders predate the universe, perhaps the White God's origin is as an Outsider himself - an Outsider which managed to create the universe and exclude the other Outsiders from it.