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Pottermore Discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Another Empty Frame, Jun 16, 2011.

  1. Zombie

    Zombie Black Philip Moderator DLP Supporter

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    Was there ever a book detailing the founders history? Because I've only ever seen explicit history detailed throughout fanon. In the books it was just Syltherin was a bad dude, and hated mudbloods. And the whole basilisk thing. Never that he was pure evil.

    I think the pure evil concept is just a fanon thing taken too far. All Slytherins are evil cause they're lumped in with their Death Eater families. And Voldemort.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
  2. arkkitehti

    arkkitehti High Inquisitor

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    Pretty much what Zombie said. Evil dudes don't go into education business.

    I see Slytherin as a more or less decent chap who just had a bit abrasive personality and extreme ideals (and as we know nothing of the general consensus of the time, it's impossible to say if they really were extreme, or if the other founders just were hippies). You find them everywhere. That doesn't mean he was in any way evil.
     
  3. Fatality

    Fatality Order Member

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    Leaving a deadly monster under a school for the sole purpose of killing children seems pretty evil to me. Not exactly what I'd call a "decent chap".

    You can pull the whole "Slytherin was just misunderstood, he left the basilisk there to defend the school" thing, but if we're going purely on canon here there is nothing to suggest that is the case. All we know is that he left a hidden chamber with a monster that only his heir could access, and all the legends say that he left it there to kill muggleborns. There is no evidence in canon to suggest that this is anything but the truth.
     
  4. arkkitehti

    arkkitehti High Inquisitor

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    We really don't know what the reason for the existence of the basilisk was. I would say it was just his personal pet, given that Slytherin was a parselmouth. The legend about "Slytherin's true heir who comes to purge the unworthy" sounds like some kind of religious messiah myth told by pureblood fanatics more than anything else.

    The idea that Slytherin somehow foresaw Riddle and prepared everything for him is exactly like some kind of crappy conspiracy theory (especially as the "purge" eventually resulted in exactly one fatality), and that he really wanted to kill everybody but was more than happy to wait for a millennium is just plain stupid.
     
  5. Zombie

    Zombie Black Philip Moderator DLP Supporter

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    It was Draco Malfoy that was flapping his gums about "Enemies of the Heir beware." So I wouldn't give much credence on a pureblood myth. No knew what the fuck the monster was until Hermione went and found it in a book in the library. We have whose words to take that he left it there to purge the mudbloods from the school? Tom Riddle (Voldemort?), Draco Malfoy? They're not known for their understanding, nor their compassion for other people they consider inferior to them. Fact of the matter is, we know hardly nothing of the founders, and anything said about them is merely supposition of the limited facts that we do have -- which makes all this shit fanon speculation.

    And the thing about all this speculation is? JK wrote a hero's tale. She wanted two sides clearly displayed as Dark and Light, etc. Voldemort evil, Dumbledore good. Its just a rendition of a hero's tale. And Hero's tales always have their share of vagaries.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
  6. Lord Raine

    Lord Raine Disappeared DLP Supporter

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    I'm just not a fan of displaying Slytherin as some kind of mustache-twirling psychopath, because doing that makes the other Founders look stupid for ever working with him or being his friends in the first place. I have to assume that Slytherin is misunderstood to some degree, because the alternative is that all of the other Founders were morons, and I'd rather not believe that.

    It is all just fanon speculation, though, I'll agree with you on that.
     
  7. afrojack

    afrojack Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    Would it be unreasonable to suggest that perhaps the basilisk was bred for the purposes of magical experimentation? We have Hagrid breeding blast-ended skrewts from firecrabs and manticores in GoF, and it seems a legitimate enough academic interest to have been explored by at least one of the founders. He was a parselmouth, breeding powerful magical serpents that (only) he would have been able to control might have seemed interesting. We also have to remember that it had only gotten that large over the course of a thousand years, he may have had no scope for how it would grow after his death.

    In PoA, Muggle persecution of wizards is implied to have been a bit of a joke, with only Wendelin the Weird ever being caught multiple times, and even she was never harmed because of the Flame-Freezing Spell, so that complicates the idea that he considered them a threat.
     
  8. Erotic Adventures of S

    Erotic Adventures of S Denarii Host

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    I believe it is said Harpo the Fowl made the first Basilisk.
     
  9. wordhammer

    wordhammer Dark Lord DLP Supporter

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    This guy?
    [​IMG]

    Of course, you meant this guy: Herpo the Foul
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
  10. Lord Raine

    Lord Raine Disappeared DLP Supporter

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    Herpo the Foul is responsible for pioneering the method of creating a Basilisk, yes. However, I would not consider it unreasonable to presume that Slytherin would want to experiment with them. After all, there is currently only one known way to create them. It's not unreasonable in my mind to presume that Slytherin would have been interested in finding others.
     
  11. dans l'obscurite

    dans l'obscurite First Year

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    Agreed. It's canon that Slytherin and Gryffindor were genuine friends, at least for a time because the Sorting Hat says, "For were there such friends anywhere as Slytherin and Gryffindor?" I refuse to believe that Gryffindor would be best friends with Slytherin if he was like the Voldemort of his time. Maybe Slytherin was more nasty and cruel than the other Founders so people exaggerated the history. Or maybe he wasn't bad starting out but he became more bitter or more dark as time went on. Who knows?

    I also agree with Lord Raine's last post and with what afrojack was saying. I don't think it's unreasonable that Slytherin might have wanted to experiment with a Basilisk. I personally find it unrealistic that the other Founders didn't know about Slytherin's Chamber under the school when they were the ones who built the school with him. I don't see how Slytherin could construct a whole, massive Chamber without them noticing. And I don't see how he could grow a Basilisk off to the side without them noticing.

    There's also the possibility that he raised the Basilisk in front of the Founders, but told them it was to protect the school even though he was keeping it for his own nefarious ends. Still, (and this is just my opinion here) I find it unlikely that Slytherin hated Muggleborns so much that he was willing to have them murdered. What's his motive? I get that he doesn't want to teach them. Okay. That's understandable. But why murder eleven year old kids?

    The problem is, there's almost no information about the Founders from canon. That's why writing anything relating to the Founders is so difficult - it's all guesswork. All we know comes from the Sorting Hat (who we can probably assume is at least a semi-reliable source since he knew the Founders), Binns, and Ron. The Sorting Hat mentions that Slytherin is "powerhungry". Binns tells the class about the legend of the Chamber, but then he gets snappish and tells the class he's going back to cold hard fact and not wishy-washy legend. Ron says he knew Slytheirn was loony, but he didn't know Slytherin was the one who started the whole pureblood mania thing.

    tl;dr - I don't think Slytherin is as evil as some people think. Something I'd like to see from JKR is more about the founding of Hogwarts and the Founders. Seriously, she could write a whole book on them. I'd buy it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
  12. Erotic Adventures of S

    Erotic Adventures of S Denarii Host

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    History is written by the victor.

    I think that pretty handily explains why Slytherin is seen to be evil.
     
  13. Zombie

    Zombie Black Philip Moderator DLP Supporter

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    I'm not either. My whole point was I have very little information in which to base my opinion of the founders on. Other than the "traits" of their houses. And it wasn't even Salazar himself that was known for hating mudbloods -- I think.. Probably getting my fanon mixed with canon. But wasn't the whole stigma of Slytherin because of Voldemort? And even then, they didn't even know who the fuck he was, just that he was speculated to have came from that house.

    I know its a big ploy in fanfiction to drop Tom Riddle like its some great revelation, no idea where that came from, other than the fact that no one apparently knew who Voldemort was before he was called Voldemort, or rather, they didn't care.

    Fanficiton's biggest problem is to make mountains out of mole hills. They take something small, and then you've got HP/SS or HP/DM or whatever gay pairing they can have because Dumbledore didn't tell him something when he was in first year. Its dumb. Most FF you read, like the do-over fics, etc are done with extreme foresight and over speculation.

    tldr: I'm not a fan of a evil mustachioed Salazar either. I don't know wtf he looks like, just know that at some point he apparently left the school. Don't even know if he was evil or not, or ran off because he was killing people. Just that he left. Founders don't make a fuck. I never cared about Founders, heir of fics, or whatever. People have taken tons of small useless facts, and made something out of it that its not.
     
  14. Portus

    Portus Heir

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    I hope you realize - in a world where cars, trunks, and tents are bigger on the inside than physics says is possible, and a random wall of the castle grows an extra-dimensional room if you walk by three times while mulling it over, where raw materials can be gotten from anywhere in the world if not made on the spot from nothing at all and an enormous chunk of granite may as well be a feather - how utterly retarded this sounds.

    He might have built the Chamber over a long weekend, while Godric was out drinking with the Centaurs or boning Rowena, or he might've built it on a whim the day the school opened, excusing himself to take a leak after all that mead and to get away from the nattering village-people wandering around because Helga flubbed the goddamn Muggle-Repelling Charms - again.
     
  15. Lord Raine

    Lord Raine Disappeared DLP Supporter

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    My guess? Magic.

    It's actually insanely easy to grow a Basilisk "off to the side." You make one by sitting a toad on a chicken egg until it hatches. That's all there is to it. It's explicitly noted in Fantastic Beasts that this made it all but impossible to actually catch someone who was trying to make one, because all you had to do when the authorities showed up was take the toad off the egg, and they've got nothing on you.

    If you're referring to the actual process of keeping and taking care of it, you're forgetting that he wouldn't really have had to. The Chamber was (allegedly) made right before Slytherin left the school, which means that Slytherin himself would have spent next to no time actually caring for or raising the Basilisk himself. And either Basilisks don't need food to grow because Magic, or Slytherin somehow used magic to keep it fed, as it hadn't starved to death by the time Riddle showed up. So either way, livestock aren't going to be disappearing, either. There would be no outward signs that a mythical monster of Dragons-Are-Cannon-Fodder proportions was incubating under Hogwarts.

    Also, try to keep in mind that multiple attempts have been made in the past to find the Chamber of Secrets. All of them failed. And Albus Dumbledore was involved in the last search fifty years ago, and it would be foolish to assume that he didn't try and find it again during the events of CoS, even though we didn't actually see him doing it, given that the plot follows Harry around, and not Dumbledore. Both times, and all of the times before that, they turned up nothing. So clearly, Slytherin knew a thing or two about hiding stuff from magical and nonmagical detection. Dumbledore is the closest thing to Merlin in Harry Potter canon this side of actual Merlin, so I think it's safe to say that if he couldn't find it, it was hidden pretty damn well. Perhaps even well enough to say that it was "impossible" to find, unless you were a Parseltongue.
     
  16. dans l'obscurite

    dans l'obscurite First Year

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    Alright, point taken. I didn't actually know all you needed to do to make a basilisk was the whole toad on an egg thing. And it's conceivable that Slytherin could have made the Chamber in secret after Hogwarts was built.

    At the time, I was thinking that the Founders would have noticed him building his own little thing while they were constructing other parts of the castle but that problem goes away if he made the Chamber afterwards. I don't necessarily think what I said was retarded. Just not well thought through.

    Regarding Dumbledore in the Chamber: While it's true that Dumbledore wasn't able to find it, it's also true that Harry, Ron, and Hermione, three second years, were able to determine its location. While a non-Parselmouth couldn't gain access to it the way Harry was able to, a non-Parselmouth could locate it and blast their way through or else learn how to say, "Open" in Parseltongue like Ron did.

    That having been said, the fact that the Chamber remained undiscovered for centuries is a testament to how well it was hidden. Just pointing out that not all attempts failed.
     
  17. Lord Raine

    Lord Raine Disappeared DLP Supporter

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    That didn't happen, and anyone who says otherwise is a dirty goddamn liar.
     
  18. afrojack

    afrojack Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    I never said Slytherin did it first, only that he might have been interested in breeding powerful serpents like the basilisk.

    Parseltongue seems to be more than just the ability to communicate with snakes, in that it seems Parselmouths can command them with relative ease. He may have been hoping Gryffindor found it one day, or he wanted a way to murder people, get rid of the body, and divert suspicion away from himself all in one, which a basilisk is.
     
  19. Fatality

    Fatality Order Member

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    Even if you don't want to accept that Slytherin was evil, you have to agree that he was kind of an asshole from what we know. He kept one of the most dangerous animals in the world under a school where a bunch of kids live. He made a massive statue of his own head and made the password to it "Speak to me Slytherin, greatest of the Hogwarts Four." It's apparently (according to Binns) a fact that he didn't want to teach muggleborns. His family eventually becomes all but squibs due to inbreeding (though this doesn't say anything about him personally, it's still worth taking into account as it might be due to his influence).

    He is at best an egotistical idiot, I suppose. Regardless of whether you want to believe it or not, canon seems pretty clear that he was kind of a bad dude.
     
  20. Lord Raine

    Lord Raine Disappeared DLP Supporter

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    I'm not saying he wasn't a canonically bad guy. I'm saying the canon sends mixed messages. In one breath we're told that Gryffindor and Slytherin were brofisting BFFs, and five pages later, you get psycho racial supremacy and a general Dark Magic vibe.

    There's nothing that really resolves these two conflicting points together in canon. There's no point where someone or something goes "oh, well, yeah, that happened, but that's because [Exposition]." Nobody ever explains this. It's just there.

    So when it comes to believing one of the conflicting sides more than the other, I'm going to gravitate towards the "Slytherin was misunderstood" side, if only because it's the side that doesn't make the other Founders look like idiots.
     
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