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WIP Prince of the Dark Kingdom by Mizuni-sama - M

Discussion in 'The Alternates' started by headbanger22, Oct 10, 2007.

  1. moribund_helix

    moribund_helix Third Year

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    What @Republic said. If you actually have anything concrete to say on why my criticism (Harry's character & Ron's bashing) isn't valid, you're free to do so. Crying "nuance" and running away doesn't count as an actual argument.
     
  2. raobuntu

    raobuntu Seventh Year

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    I can see your confusion with Harry's characterization if you skimmed through most of the religion parts. Not to get too deep into the weeds on this, but:

    Harry's initial sort of "obsession" with Voldemort is a kid who meets someone and something that's interesting. Voldemort also gets himself in Harry's good graces with specific acts and shows him a life beyond what he has now as an orphan of two "traitors".

    As Harry gets older, then there's some questioning with regards to what Voldemort stands for and what he, Harry stands for. That's where the religion bit comes in as (this is the bit that's a bit fuzzy in my head tbh) Voldemort is some kind of "chosen one" of Gaea. Magic itself literally demands his presence and that's what allows Harry to reconcile his conflicting affection for Voldemort and the memories of his parents.

    If you don't like the road the author decided to go down, fair play. I think it's wrong though to say that it doesn't make sense. That conflict and Harry's characterization is one that the author did lay down the groundwork for and resolved with in-story elements.
     
  3. moribund_helix

    moribund_helix Third Year

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    Even allowing for Harry viewing Voldemort as some kind of Earth's chosen one (I had figured this out despite skimming), Harry's outrage with others (like Ron) and lack of anger with Voldemort's actions is problematic.

    Voldemort tried using Hermione as a scapegoat (Harry's best friend supposedly) for murders, which could end with Hermione in Azkaban or worse, and does not merit Harry's fury, he merely accepts it stoically.

    Despite Harry's portrayal as someone sensitive to injustices and the plight of others, we never see him - not once - caring about Arthur's imprisonment and death. In fact his outrage is directed at Ron who wants to take revenge, furthering the Ron bashing.

    There's a difference between making excuses for why a character behaves a certain way and a character making sense. Harry is portrayed, especially in the beginning, as having a strong moral compass, as being sensitive etc. But then very selectively shows this compassion. This is what doesn't make sense. This is what needs justification.

    I hope I was more clear now on what I was arguing for.
     
  4. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    Harry's moral compass becoming skewed is one of the things the author develops over a million words. I think your claim that this doesn't make sense is rooted in your stance that Voldemort must be evil and Harry must be good because you're thinking of canon characters, when this is not what they are in PotDK. Harry fiercely defends his friends and just as fiercely opposes his enemies. He cares about some things and some people, but not all of them. The reader naturally roots for Harry, but this doesn't mean Harry is entirely a good person, he does plenty of shady things.

    Re: Ron--he has a long and complex arc through the 6-and-a-bit books. He starts out as an antagonist for sure, and his reasons for hating Harry make sense--Harry is friends with Voldemort, who put Ron's dad in Azkaban, how could Ron not hate Harry? But this relationship changes over time and it's not as simple as "they're friends or they're enemies, no middle ground." The middle ground is actually where most of major relationships in the story are, and this is one of its strengths.

    You seem to want to weigh the characters' actions by some objective reference scale and it tells you that Voldemort is a worse person than Ron--and of course he is--and therefore, Harry being friends with Voldemort but being antagonistic with Ron makes no sense, but this is not at all how people work. We don't weigh our relationships by objective standards, we stick to the people we know and care about, often even in the face of overwhelming evidence that the people we care about are bad people. This is a realistic portrayal of human nature. It's fine to like stories that simplify this, there's a whole genre of fantasy that does this--epic heroes are good and pure of heart and the villains are evil and corrupt. PotDK is not in this genre.

    Harry is essentially a reincarnation of Voldemort's mentor, who had a huge impact in shaping the person Voldemort had become. There is an implication there, at least that's how it reads to me, that Carrigan--Voldemort's teacher--wasn't exactly a paragon of good himself. The pagan religion Voldemort and Harry practice is never shown as some source of pure goodness either, there's plenty of cruelty and violence involved. Voldemort got the mandate from Earth to become a living demigod, not Dumbledore.

    To sum up, this is a very long story with evolving interpersonal relationships and your take of "doesn't make sense" comes off as someone clinging to a simplistic interpretation where Voldemort is all evil and Harry is all good and because PotDK isn't a straightforward good vs evil story, it's not your cup of tea.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2022
  5. moribund_helix

    moribund_helix Third Year

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    You have completely misunderstood what I've been arguing for. I thought what I was writing was simple enough, somehow my message didn't come across.

    And yet, how does he defend Hermione, his best friend, against Voldemort's injustice? Where is his righteous fury? Where is his compassion for Arthur, who is the twin's & Ginny's father (who are his friends) as well as Ron's.

    To make it clear, I completely understand that the author is trying to create complex characters and relationships. My point, which is that they fail to create believable characters, assumes exactly this effort for complexity. I'm not arguing that the characters should be wholly good or evil by some standard, but that they fail to be complex believable characters.

    Perhaps for you the author's attempt is good enough. And for a fanfiction it probably is. Perhaps I'm wrong to set higher standards.


    Edit: Ah, and Voldemort is evil in this story. Just not cartoonish evil, but entirely evil nonetheless. The fact that you don't realise this is concerning.
     
  6. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    He schemes to remove Lucius' power over her, then when Lucius is killed he persuades Voldemort not to go after her and kill her. There is no righteous fury, because he knows righteous fury will do precisely nothing to persuade Voldemort.

    I have to admit I don't remember details around this very well, but having never met Arthur, it's easy to understand why Harry is emotionally uninvolved when it comes to Arthur's imprisonment. Yet, after Arthur dies and Ron hatches a plot to murder Lucius Malfoy, Harry takes a great personal risk to save Ron's life and ultimately takes the blame for the curse Ron had placed on Lucius and plays it off as having been his own scheme all along, thus protecting Ron not only from Lucius, but also from Voldemort.

    You offer no arguments to support this, so there's nothing to argue against here.

    There are heaps upon heaps of professionally edited and published novels that PotDK leaves in the dust in terms of characters, character development, plotting, themes and everything else that makes a good story.

    You have completely misunderstood what I've been arguing for. I thought what I was writing was simple enough, somehow my message didn't come across.
     
  7. moribund_helix

    moribund_helix Third Year

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    Well, then what were you answering about Hermione & Arthur? Firstly, this is subjective: I don't feel convinced by Harry's character, I don't feel convinced why Voldemort gets a carte blanche for all his atrocities from Harry when this isn't extended to anything else. I don't feel convinced that someone could support Voldemort as he is portrayed and act like Harry does. Secondly, I'm not going to write an extensive analysis reasoning why Harry's characterization isn't good, I couldn't even manage to read the whole story in the first place.

    You don't have to agree with my opinion, that doesn't mean I'm wrong. You're trying to argue that it's on me, that I'm missing nuance, that I'm too much of an idiot to understand the shades of grey, but you're really coming off as an edgy teenager who writes fanfics of a "grey" Harry Potter. You don't have to feel attacked because I'm shitting on some story you liked and I'm not going to be bullied into submission. I've read enough good/classic literature to be confident in my opinions.

    Also trying to turn my words against me - when in fact you didn't understand my argument (or purposefully ignored it to attack a different position than my own) - doesn't work. I just made a minor edit to say that Voldemort is evil in this story, something that you don't seem to realise:
    And yes, the story has some redeeming qualities, some interesting word building, some good humour, and I commend the author's effort, but I think you're going a bit too far with the praise you're giving.
    Like proper spelling & grammar?
     
  8. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    PotDK isn't a perfect story, but I don't think your protestations hold much merit when you stipulate that you haven't even read a lot of the story in the first place. What it comes down to is that you just don't like the premise...which is fine, but other people do. For myself, the main thing I appreciate is that the fic tries to explain why Voldemort is who he is and make him more three dimensional. That's something I think you just blithely walk past with comments like this one:
    Yes, Voldemort is evil. And yet, he makes sense. And yet, Harry is still attracted by his charisma. And yet, you end up kind of liking him, too. That's why this fic is interesting to me.

    It's been a long time since I read this, because for a long time it went dormant, but if it's finally been finished as @Lindsey says, then I will look forward to picking it back up and reading from the beginning once the early material has been re-edited. Maybe then you won't be so disturbed by the typos.

    I'd just like to note that this is deeply funny.
     
  9. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    For the record, I think the 7th book is getting a full edit. Doing the whole story would be a massive undertaking and imo rather unnecessary, books 1-6 are fine as they are.
     
  10. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    I mean, that take is not entirely wrong, I have totally written edgy indy!Harry fanfic lol
     
  11. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    I mean, if all it needs is a copy edit, then I'll volunteer to do it myself. @Lindsey, how much is getting a re-treatment?

    Fair, I was imagining you as an edgy teen back when we used to hate-post at each other circa 2014 or whatever and laughed out loud.
     
  12. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    That's a copy edit of over a million words' worth of correcting accept/except.

    Sometimes I'm surprised I haven't got myself banned in the nine years I've been here.
     
  13. DR

    DR Secret Squirrel –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    Yeah, but if I re-read it, I might as well do something useful.
     
  14. moribund_helix

    moribund_helix Third Year

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    Yes, I skipped everything that didn't have to do with Harry. I skimmed quite a lot as well. You can argue that since I've skimmed a lot I've missed a few things (I don't think that's the case). But at this point it's obvious that I'm not going to further analyse what I find faulty in Harry's character besides the stuff I've already talked about, and it's equally obvious that everyone who disagrees with me doesn't have anything to say to support Harry's characterization being believable besides "it's nuanced" & "you've missed it because you skipped it". So let's agree to disagree.

    I must be very bad at communicating or it's a fault on your end, because I never said that I'm not into fics with premises like this. Quite the opposite. I also never said that Voldemort isn't a believable character. I don't think the author has done a great job with Voldemort, I don't think he has done a great job with characters in general. But my gripe was never with Voldemort. Snape & Voldemort are probably the most well done characters in this fic for what it's worth.

    don't forget alter/altar
     
  15. Lindsey

    Lindsey Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    Right now we are only looking at book seven, including the chapters already posted.

    I know she had a plan to do some editing after the series is finished, but I do not know the scope of the changes she wants to make. Most of her editing team, including myself, doesn't have the time to take on a complete rewrite, so I'm not sure what will end up happening.

    Personally, I'd love to bring a few more people onto the editing team, especially if they have recently reread the series. Somehow I've become the project manager and most active editor, which is problematic as I barely have time myself. It seems I'm the only editor (we are down to three), who specializes in the big picture, character arcs and structure. Thus, I'm the one doing the majority of the work right now.
     
  16. Caligstro

    Caligstro Muggle

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    @Lindsey
    I've been mostly just keeping an eye out since Mizuni-sama's original announcement that they're coming back to finish this up and make the original fiction adaptation, and following up on updates in this thread for a while, but I just saw a recent post on reddit from another person regarding the progress of the work on the re-write/edit.

    I was wondering if you can confirm (or if there's any other info you can give as an update on the project?)

    original post link: https://www.reddit.com/r/HPfanficti...at_happened_to_prince_of_the_dark_kingdom_by/

    Also thanks for being almost the only source of news on the project I could find anywhere, and for the time and effort you put into the editing/beta team over the last few years!
     
  17. Lindsey

    Lindsey Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    Yep, that is the state of things. We gave her a huge list of potential improvements and changes (as what she wanted), and then she vanished again. We have the first draft of the completed book 7 (and therefore the series). I am planning on reaching out in the near future again to see if we can regain contact.

    We aren't exactly sure what to do with the draft if she doesn't return. It seems wrong to post it without her, but it also seems wrong to not post it.
     
  18. Leonard

    Leonard Banned

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    These beta readers are so lucky. Please reach out to author and release it soon. I have been waiting literally years to see it completed. This is the most ambitious attempt I have seen in fanfiction and it would be shame for it not to be completed.
     
  19. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    Wrong way to think about it, mate. It's not like we just got to read book 7. At the very least, speaking for myself, I went in with the mindset of an editor as well as a reader and giving solid feedback that isn't just pointing out typos takes some thinking.
     
  20. Caligstro

    Caligstro Muggle

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    Thanks for the confirmation and update, Lindsey! ScottPress, you're one of the editors too?

    Yeah that's definitely the right mindset - we want the final result to be the best it can be (and still exist, preferably, at least eventually).
    That does sound like a confusing/frustrating situation though.

    Was this like a big dump of feedback and things to do all at once though? Or like as part of an ongoing dialogue over the course of some time and iterations of work?

    I only ask because I'm wondering if either
    A) She took all the feedback and disappeared to try to make it happen? Given that she was gone for 7 years and then came back with a whole big project planned ( /I assume probably already in the works of being written), maybe she just tends to work best shuttered away but didn't actually tell you/warn you?

    B) or (I'm even more worried about this) that if it was a whole bunch of significant changes/edits/revision needed if might have scared her off :O_O: (hopefully not)
     
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