I'm pretty sure that henge would be seen through by quite a few sensor types if you're trying to impersonate someone they've met.

Kawarami seems like the sort of jutsu that only works if you're really good or if you're fighting someone really bad.

I think that most ninja should just be considered soldiers. The shinobi that actually need to maintain secrecy all the time are special ops. Ninja villages like showing off their ninja. They need to make a statement that their ninja are strong to bring in customers. Ninja walking around with their headbands on is an advertisement. Large flashy jutsu are probably preferred.

 

@ketz3r yes and no. My theory on Henge is that there are four qualities that make for a good henge:
1. The variety of transformations you can make in terms of shape and mass.
2. The duration you can hold the henge.
3. The stability of the technique (how much damage you can take before it disperses).
4. Your ability to make people believe you are what you transformed into, whether it is another person or just an object.

So even if Naruto's Henge is not "special," the fact that he can Henge into small rocks or a fuuma shuriken is special. Moreover, if you try to Henge into another person, it's not just acting ability. You still need to copy smell. Trying to break into a secure area with Henge is probably not easy even for a high level shinobi.

@knight504 as I said, Kawarimi is a real life technique so it's logical to assume that it's based on the real life principles. I guess I stand corrected about it being used vs jounin, but that hardly compromises my main point.

As for Shunshin, supercharging the body with chakra is something people do all the time anyway. Even Rock Lee does that. Ninjas naturally gather chakra to perform physical feats a civilian is incapable of. Using chakra to facilitate movement is something which is literally used EVERY time someone runs or jumps in the manga. The logical answer is that Shunshin combines high speed movement with obscuring of movement to make it seem as though you actually teleported. Hence the puff of smoke, swirl of leaves, sand, etc.

EDIT: Let me add this to my argument: just like how Kawarimi is based on a real life ninja technique, Henge is clearly based on the technique of disguising yourself as someone else and Shunshin is clearly based on the technique of "throw smoke bomb and escape."

I know you hate bringing folklore into jutsu theory discussions, but the reality is that Kishimoto borrows most of his ideas from folklore. Everything from the naming of jutsus to the naming of people, from the creatures and powers of the Naruto world to the manga's themes. The Naruto manga is basically Japanese folklore + DBZ dropped in a blender and swirled together.

As far as similarities and differences between Kawarimi and Shunshin, Kawarimi is really about fooling a person into thinking you're still at Point A when you're actually at Point B. The high speed movement is in the switch. Where exactly the ninja get all these logs from is a separate issue. Shunshin is really about GTFO (or showing off... e.g. Sasuke and Kakashi at the chuunin exam). There's no reason to think that Shunshin is a magical cover-leagues-of-distance-in-the-blink-of-an-eye technique. If it were, then spacetime techniques wouldn't be such a big deal.

 

The Shunshin's running fast from A to B (with a distraction in most cases like you mentioned). If Kawarimi used the same principles, you'd be running from A to B, picking up an object, running back to A, leaving the object, and then running back to B. Even if that's what was done IRL more-or-less, it isn't feasible for it to work like that in manga, especially when Shunshin's classed as more advanced.

So my point was that they both involve high-speed movement but that movement is accomplished it different so they aren't really comparable. It'd be like saying the Hiraishin and that Heavenly Transfer are similar; they do get you from A to B but one does so by manipulating space-time and the other moves you at the speed of light.

Same result, different principles. And Shunshin and Kawarimi don't have the exact same result.

What ninja typically do wouldn't be called supercharging the body. Similar but Shunshin's far more extreme. After all, Shunshin's an actual ninjutsu which means creating an exact amount of chakra and moulding it in a specific way, and it's something more advanced than what a typical academy student could do.

Chakra enhancement seems to comes in three forms: 1) the universal form where they unconsciously use the chakra in their pathways to be faster and stronger than what their muscles can achieve alone. 2) the one they pick up against chakra control exercises like tree walking and water walking; they actively generating chakra and focus it in a limb to increase force i.e. in their hands to hit harder or in your feet to run faster (see: Sasuke vs Haku and Naruto vs Kiba) and then 3) using ninjutsu to take this even further like with Shunshin and nintaijutsu like Kiba's Four Legs jutsu and A's Lightning Armour.

And whilst not to the extent that you mentioned, Shunshin's quite capable of crossing great distances in a short amount of time; it just depends on the abilities of the individual. That's exactly what the Hokages did after all.

tl;dr Shunshin and Kawarimi are fairly different, and Shunshin's a much more advanced form of what makes shinobi superhuman.

 

Ninjas DO consciously charge their bodies with chakra, and you DON'T need to train tree climbing to do this (the benefit of tree climbing is learning the correct way to use chakra to stick to an object). Of course impoving chakra control makes this not only easier but more effective (see Tsunade's super strength -- and since Sakura has now officially achieved Tsunade's strength I think it's pretty clear that this isn't Tsunade's "natural strength" in the sense that fanon understands those words to mean, but a benefit of chakra control combined with chakra potency from her Byakugou).

According to traditional martial arts folklore, if you meditate and practice enough, you can control your bodies natural energies from within. This is a key difference between western media and eastern media. In fanon we see people "training without chakra" and having their chakra sealed off. That's because of how mana is treated in most western fantasy, like an external tool, rather than extension of self. In canon this would never happen because you are never separated from your chakra. You can dim your chakra to almost nothing or flair it out to concentrate all your energies in a single punch.


For Kawarimi you probably have to have your replacement planned in advance and very close to you in order for it to work. I'm not even sure the jutsu powers the movement -- I actually think it does not.

In real life, Kawarimi is an optical effect. Someone looks in your direction. For a brief second they look away and when they look back they see a mannequin. Their brain tricks them into believing that's all they saw to begin with. I'm not sure that the Kawarimi jutsu actually gives you speed -- just as likely the ninjutsu part is in making your enemy think they are still attacking you when you have been sitting at Point B since 5 seconds ago.

So Kawarimi might not *really* be a high speed escape so much as it is a tactical maneuver. For it to work they have to believe you are still at Point A and for that to work, when you arrive at Point B you have to move stealthily. Otherwise you give away that Point A is a dummy.

 

Tsunade and Sakura are using a specific chakra technique to improve their attacks. They're not just doing what everyone else is doing but better. Tsunade has shown actual super strength while I believe that Sakura has only shown impact based super strength.

 

Sasuke using the tree walking training to enhance his movements. Sakura using it against Ino. Naruto focusing chakra to his feet to increase his speed.

Those are what I meant by that second form of chakra enhancement and why I related it to the tree walking. Before that point, I wouldn't think they were consciously enhancing their bodies. I doubt that time we saw Academy!Naruto jump over that fence so easily involved him consciously manipulating his chakra to do so. He just jumped.

The Hyuuga's Sixty-Four Palms is essentially sealing off a person's chakra; it closes the chakra point to "stop the chakra flow of the opponent". The same is achieved with Chiyo's Lion Closing Roar fuuinjutsu which blocks a person's chakra with a sealing formula by closing all their chakra points.

For Kawarimi, it just sounds like you're trying to make it as close to the real life example as possible rather than what it is. In real life, people can't magically change their shape, size and appearance or create a moving hologram of themselves. Same applies here. It's a ninjutsu - ninja magic - that swaps your body with something else to escape an attack, creating a optical illusion that the attack was successful. It's used to run away or put yourself in an advantageous position.

 

Not sure if exactly quality, but I think this deserves a little better than Almost Recommended. Iwa!Naruto who likes causing Konoha grief. Knew he contained the Kyuubi since childhood, doesn't give a fuck. Romance with OFC. Naruto's dark, strong and decently badass. The beginning doesn't impress too much, but as the story gets going, it gets good. At least, I personally found it enjoyable. Sort of guilty pleasure though, the whole Naruto thrashing Konoha thing. More of a dark fun in a lighthearted way sort of a fic.

 

@Vincent agreed. It may be only in the anime, but I recall Jiraiya explaining that Tsunade's perfect chakra control allows for her to perfectly synchronize the release of chakra to create her strength.

@Knight504 Gathering more chakra will always naturally enhance your physical abilities e.g. Kyuubified Naruto. Controlling that chakra effectively will further enhance your abilities.

Hyuuga 64 palms does not shutdown your chakra. 64 palms blocks the tenketsu, preventing the natural flow of chakra through the body. It's not correct to say that it's sealing off your chakra -- it's just interrupting the flow.

And? What is the effect? Can you train with your chakra flow interrupted? No. "You should be unable to even stand." Probably the only reason why Naruto can stand is because the Kyuubi's chakra is not effected. However, his body is still using and producing its own chakra as well. Neji didn't stop chakra to Naruto's heart. The heart beats, physical energy is used. Physical energy is used means chakra is used.


Regarding jutsu, I looked for exact translations to the databook. Kishimoto's words support my theory on Kawarimi, although I'm wrong on Shunshin.

See here: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showt...1-translations-(21-jutsu-5-characters-1-misc)

Kawarimi's purpose isn't speed. It's misdirection. "This creates an optical illusion..."

Speed is actually never mentioned with regard to Kawarimi. The effect of the jutsu is equally likely to be the creation of the optical effect as it is "a high speed movement."

However, I am bugged by Kishimoto's unclear explanation of Shunshin for several reasons:
1. As I've said, "vitalization with chakra" is something ninjas do anyway. There must be more to it than that.
2. Speed is not mentioned with regards to chakra usage, only distance traveled and elevation.
3. If Shunshin is so fast that tracking and following is impossible for other ninja (allowing effective escape), then it's the best jutsu bar none and is game breaking beyond Hiraishin. The limit of Hiraishin is the placement of the seal markers, a limit Shunshin does not have.

Well, just another technique for the fandom to horribly break.

 

You know this discussion reminds me of a FSN fic where the author had his own idea of what Gae Bolg did, considered it too powerful and proceeded to nerf it into uselessness and knight is not the author here.

Also mortalone, really?

It can't flow -> Can't be used -> Chakra is sealed off

If you can't get this then I don't think any further discussion has any point at all.

 

The difference is Gae Bolg is a mythical weapon and without it Lancer would kind of be mediocre as a hero. Noble Phantasms have to be strong because anyone who gets on the throne transcends what it means to be human. That's the point.

Henge is different because we have children learning and producing the technique. Kishimoto never explains how it can be countered effectively or if there is even a level of mastery required above the academy level to make use of it effectively in the field against enemy shinobi. It is literally such a bizarre technique that if you choose to write a "serious" espionage story, you kind of have to put your foot down and lay out some limits, because if EVERYONE can theorhetically become ANYBODY at ANY moment then you as an author can pull some amazing asspulls. But more than that, society simply wouldn't function. Nobody would at the top of government or business would trust each other once it got out how powerful the henge was. Shinobi would be "body snatchers" practically and could become a force so powerful a small number of them could control a nation just by impersonating whoever's elected to government with ease... I mean, why did Obito need to control the Mizukage? Just henge into him and act like him... Obviously henge MUST have a downside or he would have tasked somebody to do this for him.

 

Emphasis mine.

This is what does it. Taking on a person's whole persona is hard. In order for that to be successful - especially long-term - Obito would need to both know essentially everything the Mizukage knows and be able to replicate his mannerisms to a fairly highly specific degree, for an extended period of time. You think people wouldn't think something's up if the Mizukage started acting even slightly different out of nowhere?

Henge has its uses, but after a certain point (disguise, mostly) it's probably pretty useless. All it replicates is a person's appearance, and even then it's possible that the transforming shinobi might just fuck it up by getting some small detail wrong (maybe missing a mole or getting the height off, it could be anything.)

FEdit: Hell, that doesn't account for the fact that we're talking about the leader of a ninja village. There are probably specific protections against impersonators that may not necessarily exist for every form of mind control.

 

You mean like Orochimaru did to the Fourth Kazekage?

Cuz that totally happened.

Also, the obvious flaw in henge is the bold part there. It takes a very rare person to behave in a manner that would not arouse suspicion, especially if we assume that a) Shinobi have a higher base level of observational skills/situational awareness and b) that they would be looking out for just this sort of thing. It's clearly not impossible, since Orochimaru did it, but that was for a relatively short time (no more than 3-4 months, tops). If it had been for the years that Obito was controlling the Mizukage, odds are good he would have fucked up at some point and blown his cover.

There may also be chakra cost issues, such that maintaining a henge more-or-less constantly (and as such, constantly draining your chakra), would exhaust anyone but a Jinchuuriki or Kisame within a day or two. Or maybe there's ways that were never specified to detect if someone is under henge, or at least detect the constant chakra use. I'd also imagine that henge doesn't fool sensor ninja either, though I don't think there's explicit mention of that one way or the other.

Edit: Damnit, I got ninja'd in a discussion about ninjas. That's like an Xzibit moment there or something.

 

Consider this - we know that shinobi can sense chakra and that each chakra has a personal feel, and it's never actually stated that Henge is a low-cost technique. While it might be passed up in a combat situation where chakra is flying around and a shinobi is concentrating on many things at once, it's unlikely the same would be true in an infiltration setting.

If a sensor-type can sense chakra kilometers away, let us assume that an average shinobi has a general awareness of chakra moving in his surroundings, at least to the point where he is an average shinobi and not a dead one from being instagibbed by ninjutsu. I would believe that shinobi give off a low 'buzz' of chakra, so to speak, and that a shinobi under Henge gives off a higher 'buzz'. In a relaxed setting, with shinobi of average or higher sensing skill (or even people like fucking Hyuugas who give negative shits about visual illusions and can see chakra for kilometers around), it's unlikely something like Henge, literally a chakra cloak of genjutsu or ninjutsu depending on your interpretation, would go unnoticed.

Therefore, I would have to class Henge as a sort of quick-and-dirty disguise technique - it might work on civilians and distracted shinobi (this all assuming you didn't fuck up the Henge itself, of course, and put a kunai pouch on the wrong leg or forget a birthmark), but in terms of actual subterfuge, makeup work and actual espionage are much more likely to work against chakra-using ninja if you're pretending to be someone else. Once again, I base this on the facts that techniques give off chakra and that ninjas can sense chakra to varying degrees.

Your points on why ninja don't control fucking everything, on the other hand, are completely valid. Why wouldn't the people with godlike powers rule the government instead of the so-far revealed?

The question I would ask would be: what makes you think they don't?

(Also, as a follow-up question, do you really think the Twelve Ninja Guardians are there to protect the Fire Lord? If so, I've got a bridge to sell you. In Wind Country.)

Tl;dr : Henge counters itself via what we know of chakra and chakra-sensing, and what we see in Naruto is just a shonen front for an Orwellian masquerade.

 

Didn't they try and fail to assassinate him in some filler arc?

 

The point was that you had a jutsu you knew little about, proceed to take it to it's most logical extreme and then say it is too strong therefore it should be nerfed? People have already commented the obvious flaws, those that are implied and those can that be easily understood to happen.

 

There's a difference between not being able to use your chakra and being separated from it metaphysically, as in by fuuinjutsu, sealing. Sixty-four palms does not seal your chakra, it impedes its flow, but your body is still using and producing chakra.

No chakra = death. That's canon fact. Kakashi died from lack of chakra in the Pain arc.

The only known way from the manga to truly seal off someone's chakra is with Shiki Fuuin e.g. what Sandaime did to Orochimaru (he sealed off the chakra in the arms). Orochimaru never once used chakra in his lower arms after that. He couldn't, because it had been sealed.

 

Until Orochimaru switched bodies.

 

Err... I suppose English is not your first language and, as it is not mine either, I sympathise I will clarify again:

Sealed off means it cannot be accessed. It is still there since it is roughly equivalent to life force it just can't be used in any way. It is still linked to the body since canon shows it doesn't result in loss of chakra and since destroying that link is the killing blow the Hyuuga's have that hits the heart.

If you can't see that then I am afraid we are speaking different languages.

Plus Sarutobi didn't seal the chakra at all. He sealed the arms themselves or rather the soul part of the arms. Saying chakra doesn't really make any sense since at no point we are given any indication chakra from a person differs in nature depending on where it is. Not to mention the whole Death God taking the soul part...

 

There is this one fic that I've been searching for for a long time, but haven't been able to find. It featured a corrupt impoverished Leaf Village barely managing to survive by receiving support from Orochimaru, who left to found his own village.