Lucas and JKR writing a book... If Eps 1-3 and Book 6 are any indication that would be bad...

Anyway to argue for the Light Saber deflecting spell. A Light Saber is not just a sword of energy, its a sword of uncountable amounts of energy. If you look at Eps 1 then Quigon starts to melt the blast doors on the destroyer with his blade. A blast door is usually several inches thick and made of the toughest substances that is known. For a light saber to start to melt such a structure mean that it can produce a shit load of heat.

So my thinking is that once a spell gets in contact with so much energy that it dispate or is overwelmed. It's not just that a Saber is energy, it that there is so much energy that magic gets disrupted.

The unforgivables are unblockable by magic, ie no magical shield exisits to stop them. However Dumbles has blocked AKs with physical shields. So if Vader is quick enough to get his Saber in it's path then I think he can block an AK.

I don't think he will be vulnarable to the Imperio, as Jedi and Sith are by no means weak minded. Crucio would might not work either... depending on weather it need nerves to work or not.

Still voting for Vader.

 

Force Lightning FTW. I know that it's a power that Vader didn't have in the movies, but it's a canon power in KotOR1 and 2.

 

Vader can't use it tho, due to his breathing equipment.

 

Just because he didn't use force lightning doesn't mean that he can't. And really the people suporting Voldie should stop being such hipocryts. You've restricted Vaderto only useing the force powers seen in the movies when there is a metirc ton of regognized Star Wars books that could be drawn upon for use. If Vader was given acess to evne half the powers that Jedi can use by the end of the new jedi knights series then Vader would curbstomp Voldie. For that matter what is with all the super powering of Voldie, acording to cannon Voldie can't turn the floor into quicksand, or animate a dozen statues, or even transfigure objects far away from him. In both fights were Voldie dueled all he did was repatedly throw killing curses, and shield.

All of the pretty conjuration and transfiguration was Dumbledore and if Dumbledore could have just turned the floor to quicksand and frozee Voldie in place, wouldn't he have tried? If your going to give Voldie the infinate powers of Fannon the Voldie should have all the force powers in print. This includes the white curents abilties to make illusions and controll the mind. As well as the force sense that lets them block lasers, which travel at the speed of light BTW. The very fact that you can block spells says they are much slower, otherwise it would have hit you the moment they finish incanting and you'd have no time to yell protecto.

 

Actually, you would be the hypocrite. Just before the above sentence, you said:

Yeah? And just because Voldemort didn't use transfiguration doesn't mean he can't do it.

And Voldemort can do human transfiguration if his Death Eater Barty Crouch Jr. could do it to Malfoy in GoF.

He did try transfiguration in a very similar manner when he froze him in a ball of water.

Nothing we assert that Voldemort is capable of is fanon. It's all canon. You don't think Voldemort can wave his wand and transfigure Vader into a pig?

His Death Eater could do something along those lines. It stands that Voldemort could do the same and better. And transfiguration doesn't require aiming or anything, so Vader can't dodge it.

And why do you think animating objects is beyond Voldemort? Underage Hogwarts students can animate the suits of armor. Are you telling me that a Dark Lord can't do that? Is Voldemort beneath Minerva McGonnagal in skill?

All of the mentioned powers are directly proved in canon. Vader doesn't have illusions, total mind control, and can't dodge at the speed of light.

And the laser bolts that get fired in Star Wars do not move at the speed of light. If it did, you wouldn't be able to see them unless they travelled through dust or somethign similar. In addition, if it were at the speed of light, you wouldn't be able to block it unless you also moved at the speed of light - which is impossible. If Vader could move the saber around at the speed of light, we wouldn't be able to see the duel in the first place.

Hence, the ZOMG!SUPERJediSpeed is not real. Yes, they can move pretty fast, but not so fast that Voldemort couldn't defend himself with a shield.

All other powers besides lightning, acrobatics, quick reflexes, small mind tricks, and summoning/repelling is out of canon.

Because if we were going to get fanon involved, then Voldemort would freeze time with a "Tempus Fugit" (Barb Psychic Serpent Triology) and kill Vader with ease. Or go back in time. Or bond himself to Vader and combine their powers. Or put a loveslave spell on him.

But, even with canon, Voldemort is clearly more powerful.

Tell me, just tell me, how would Vader prevent himself from being transfigured into a pig. [And no, Voldemort is not going to be within close range of a man with a glowing sword.]

PS: And remember, transfiguration doesn't require aim. Just a wand wave.

PPS: If Vader can summon a wand with the force, Voldemort can easily summon it back.

PPPS: ZOMG!JediSpeed does not exist. Vader can't chop him up before he can blink.

 

Can't agree with that. If transfiguration does not need an aim then why the heck didn't Dumbledore, who was a Transfiguration teacher as well, not turn Voldemort into a popsicle or something during the DoM? Is he any less gifted or knowledagable than Voldemort? Not likely.

I think you are over simplyfing things with transfiguration. IMO you need to focus and aim to transfigure anything. It's not a simple matter of waving a wand. Otherwise can you imagine how easy duals could be won? Hell if that was the case then why do you need the AK?? Transfigure someone into a bug an stomp them.

I'm not sure, is he capable of Wandless magic? If so yeah but at the same time he is pretty helpless without the wand for those crutial few seconds.

Taken from Wiki - Force powers

Burst of Speed - Makes the user able to maintain sprinting speeds (even moving in awkward directions like backwards) for as long as the effect lasts. Since Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast it seems that the power may bend the subjective time of the user making everything seem slower. Greater aptitude grants boosts to speed and/or greater duration. The ability first appeared in the book Shadows Of The Empire during a fight between Luke Skywalker and Guri. It is further shown in the films at the beginning of Episode I, when Droidekas sent by Nute Gunray attempt to kill Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn. The duo use a burst of speed to evade the deadly droids. It could be argued that Darth Sidious used this power against Mace Windu's party of Jedi when he leaped from his chair and killed two Jedi. In the latter chapters of the Jedi Knight series of games, it is implied that, paired with the precognitive form of Force Sense (see below), a Jedi is able to use Speed to dodge any fire that they would ordinarily be unable to deflect/absorb, most notably disruptor rifle fire. It is also used in the Clone Wars Cartoon Network microseries, especially by Mace Windu. He uses it to take out entire armies of battle droids.

 

Its actually canon fact vader can't use it, also that after the obi wan duel, he's about 80% force power of Palatipines, when he could have been twice the power of him before being put in the suit. Vaders been through a lot more, and in my opinion, his only weakness is that he is capable of love, although this wouldnt come to call in a duel between Voldie, so again Vader would win

 

The way force speed is written everything around them moves slow while they move at normal speed. Its not cross the room in the blink of the eye speed, its rolling out of the way of an attack that they shouldn't be able to dodge. And laser do move a the speed of light, Jedi don't dodge and deflect lasers, they can use the force to sense where their opponets are aiming and move their lightsabers to block before the trigger is even pulled. Thats how they block the shots. Battle precognition alone is what makes them just about unstoppable in combat.

 

I completly agree with this, a great example of this is when Mace Windu is taking on Jango Fett, he's already swinging his lightsaber exactly where Fett is about to shoot, leaving him boned basically and missing his head

 

The laser blasts in StarWars do not move at the speed of light, if so it would be physically impossible to dodge anything or get your weapon up to deflect one blast.

Speed of light: [SIZE=+1]299,792,458 meters / second[/SIZE]

 

Canon Voldie vs. Movie Vader Voldie hands down. Fanon versions, Vader hands down. But Vader and his men against Voldemort and his men would never end because neither side can hit a damn wall when it matters.

 

LOL

Yeah a friend of mine commented on that last part. In Eps 4 Kenobi comments on the accuracy of the Imperial blaster shot on the Jawa sand crawler... then the rest of the movie Imps never hit anything.

Say what!???? Are you telling me that light does not travel at the speed of light?? That argument makes no sense! The Sith and Jedi dodge and block the blasts by anticipating where the bolt will hit BEFORE the trigger is pulled and mixing in a very good reflexes. They cannot nor do not dodge after the Laser is fired. As said my Naga's Shadow.

 

Imperio can be blocked by someone with a strong enough will, and as far as we know can't be cast on multiple people at once. Even if it's not blocked the first time, it can be thrown off eventually.

Crucio is a pain spell, and considering what happened on that volcano planet and how screwed up his body is, I doubt Vader can even feel pain anymore.

The AK can be blocked. We don't know how Harry did it, but it can be. Considering Vader's vast knowledge of the force and life/death he would have a fair shot of surviving it also.

We don't really know how extensive Vader's knowledge of the dark side is. Some Sith, like Sion were so full of hatred that the Dark Side made them immortal, and his body was nothing but bits and pieces that were held together by the force and his own anger. We don't know if Vader could do this, since he was never really challenged this way, but IMO he (and other users of the Dark Side) are like The Hulk: They get stronger the more angry they get, and there's no limit to what they can do if they're angry enough.

Plus we're all forgetting one thing. Vader would just pilot the Death Star to Earth and blow the whole thing up. Horcrux and all.

 

There are obviously limits on human transfiguartion, else Dumbledore would've transfigured LV into a rock.

The Jedi do have superhuman speed and using the force can predict where an attack is going to land. Going against a human with human reflexes would be simple by comparison. Are you forgetting the whole "You don't need to see ID" part in Mos Eisley? Weak willed people, such as those susceptible to the Imperius, are easily influenced. The best part about it is that it is permanent, and once you've had the suggestion planted it's there until another Jedi removes it. LV would probably be immune to this, but most of his Death Eaters would be easy prey considering how subserviant they are.

Lasers, which are light, don't move at the speed of light? We don't know why we can see the beams of light, but we do know they're lasers. Like I said above, Jedi have already gotten into position to block it before the trigger is pulled.

The Expanded Universe is canon. Everything released in that universe that is licensed, etc by Lucas has to ensure that they won't contradict other books in the EU. The exception is the "What If" style books, which aren't canon.

Comparing fanfiction to officially licensed, commercially released books is nonsense. The books are there to expand upon the history revealed in the movies, but are still part of the universe.

There are unkown limitations on human transfiguration, like I stated above.

Only if he can do wandless magic, which there is no canon evidence to support AFAIK. Even if he does have that ability, again unsupported by canon, then the time he has to take to summon it back, and let down any defenses he might have up so the wand can pass through, would leave him exposed.

A jedi with Force Speed vs a human would be a total mismatch.

PS: Vader would be slightly favored to win, Palpatine would destroy him without a sweat.

 

The limits on human transfiguration are not totally unknown. In GoF, Crouch Jr. transfigured Malfoy into a Ferret, making it entirely possible that a full trained Dark Lord could do it better.

The reason Dumbledore didn't use it on Dumbledore is because Voldemort would just block the attempt. Malfoy is an untrained wizard and would probably be unable to block it. Since Vader can't do magic, he can't block a transfiguration. That's an instant-win right there.

...and Voldemort is not a human anymore, as told by Dumbledore. Even with Jedi-Speed, Vader couldn't cross the room faster than Voldemort could summon a shield.

YES it would be mismatched, but it's easily offset by the fact Voldemort could just use his magic to think up creative ways to block his advances.

It's not like their dueling in close quarters. Voldemort isnt stupid enough to engage a man with a glowing sword in close combat.

And why does everyone assume that magic can be blocked by a beam of energy? A lightsaber can cut through doors, magic can do much better.

Finally, a crucio is the worst pain imaginable. Since Vader has a nervous system, I think he can feel pain. People who get into horrendous accidents feel pain, so Vader should as well. Being burned alive and losing you legs is pretty bad, but it's not grounds to lose pain perception.

If it was that easy to beat a wizard by summoning his wand, it would be used more often. Obviously trained wizards can block summoning attempts. But seeing as it is force based, I suppose Voldemort could just grab his wand tighter. (Unlikely - but then again, since when does Vader know a wand is important to the wizard? It's not the first thing you're gonna think about, especially with spells flying everywhere. And if we're talking about summoning, then a simple Accio Suit!would kill or seriously disable Vader. But, like I said, it's not the first thing you think of. However, Voldemort does seem like the person who would want to unmask his opponent prior to defeating him, that ego and all. )

And true, part of the Jedi's skill is precognition, but it doesn't defend against transfiguration, volleys of spells, walls that impede him, etc etc. There are much more creative ways to kill then just a green curse of death. Encasing him in water Dumbledore did this)would short out his suit, or if water proof, would keep him trapped at the very least. And then there is the issue of the various snakes he can transfigure and order to attack. There are only so many things you can dodge at once.

The Forget-Me aspect of the Force is irrelevant as Death Eaters aren't even in the battle. But if they were bring their minions, the stormtroopers would be subdued easily - an imperio is infiniely more powerful than the mindtricks of the force. As seen by the jedi being cut down by the clones in Episode Three, the Jedi can't block everything, especailyl not hundreds of lasers at once. Eventually it become physically impossible to dodge so many things at once.

All theories, no canon evidence. Plus I doubt anyone wants to sacrifice themselves for Vader out of Love.

and the keyword for the imperio is 'eventually'.

I stand by me previous statement:

And then there's apparition, transfiguration, etc. I can't see Vader outduelling a hundred mini stone soldiers and a wizard throwing out death curses at you.

 

Vader would beat the living hell out of Voldemort. Whenever Voldemort shot spells ar him, Vader could use that nifty light saber or some physical shields.

All this while choking the fuck out of Vader via The Force.

 

I thought the explanation in the books was that transfiguring couldn't be blocked at all, which means the only reason Dumbledore couldn't transfigure Voldemort was because their "power levels" were

Vader can create shields using the Force, they can use the force to move objects in the path of spells the same way dumbledore did, etc. Force users well versed in both sides of the force can create shields which make them invincible to just about any attack.

Voldemort's transformation only seems to have enhanced his lifespan, it didn't give him better reflexes or anything like that. If a malnourished 14 year old boy who does no real exercise can outmaneuver you, I'm sure somebody with Jedi-speed can.

Voldemort and the other DEs don't seem to have a large arsenal of spells. There are some exceptions (Snape), but most seem to rely on the unforgivables.

Because whatever magic is, it's not a solid (it can be absorbed and gravity doesn't seem to affect it) and the way we see it is as a beam of light, similar to a laser beam.

The worst death toll we've seen were a dozen people wormtail killed with some type of explosion spell. Palpatine was able to use the force to destroy an entire fleet and slaughter thousands. The force has an advantage both in close combat (lightsabers vs swords) and ranged combat (killing thousands, possibly more with a single attack).

Vader most likely can't feel pain. Since he has a cns, why can't he? Well it's simple, the injuries (face burned off, arms and legs amputated, and most of the rest of his body set on fire) he sustained on the volcano planet would leave his body in constant pain. Whatever abilities/medicine he is using to dull this horrific pain would weaken the effects of the Crucio that it'd be just about useless.

A wizard without his wand is like a pilot without a plane. Voldemort just doesn't seem all that smart, else he would've used precisely that tactic on Harry (who had no real training in dueling) and defeated him easily, to show just exactly how much more powerful he is. Voldemort's weakness is his ego and his belief that he's unbeatable, which causes him to make grievous mistakes (Attack on the Potters without all the information, or instead of sending one of his underlings instead of himself).

Vader all but masterminded the extermination of all but two Jedi in the Galaxy, with only Obi Wan and Yoda evading capture/death.

You seem to think that the only thing a Jedi can do is wield a lightsaber, move quickly, and choke people. Read http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_powers if you want to see the true scope of a Jedi/Sith's power. Don't forget, though, that a Sith may use "Light" sided powers as well as "Dark".

If I recall correctly, you can only cast the spell on one person at a time. Thousands/Hundreds of Thousands of Storm Troopers with Death Stars, TIE fighters, Star Cruisers, etc vs a following with a maximum of a couple hundred. Hmm, I wonder who will win.

No canon evidence? There's not going to be any canon evidence about how Vader would defend against these attacks. What we do know is that the AK can be blocked, Harry was able to throw the Imperio off after practice, and someone with a will as strong as a Sith's should have no problem with it.

Apparation is useless when your enemy knows exactly where you're going to appear. Transfiguring I explained above. Anything Voldemort can do Vader can do better

 

I don't get quite what you are saying, but there is no evidence in the book that power levels make any difference at all.

Physical shields don't do anything to transfiguration, as far as we know. We're also under the assumption that magic and force have no effect on each other, so any force based shield is useless against magic, leaving Vader to dodge all of his attacks, which would be impossible eventually.

Theory, see above.

...through love, which seems to be impossible in Vader's part.

And you judge Voldemort on the three small times we saw him in the series, and the small amount of action he has performed. If he is as great as Dumbledore in power, then he isn't stupid, weak, or limited in magical ability.

Unfortunately, the HP fandom hasn't had years and years of liscensing to expand the fandom. See me in a decade or two (assuming J.K. isn't an ss and closes the fandom by killing Harry) and we'll talk about their powers. But really, we're following the life of a uneducated wizard. We have no idea what magic is capable of.

While I'll admit that forcepowers are impressive, the good ones are on the dark side, and people can't handle bein dark too long in the story anyhow. Their bodies decay.

Besides, channeling too much force kills you, as seen (Kyp? Some Jedi Academy character under luke) when he used th eforce of himself and the entire school population to repel a whole star destroyer. He was literally burned, I think.

Anyhow, this is fanboy vs. fanboy now, based on mostly unproven theories. I'm gonna sign off.

Amerision

PS: Can you identify the two Jedi below? I'd really love to read their backstory. I think its from a game Dark Lords, or Knights of the Old Republic.

 

Darth Nihilus and Jedi Master Atris