Okay this is kind of a weird question but I'm having trouble figuring it out. It's not the usual Harry Potter canon stumping questions we tend to put in this thread, but as it is (1) relevant to an HP idea I have and (2) it isn't something I think needs its own thread I figured this would be a good place to put it.

I was wondering if there was anyone on this board that could either help me understand higher education in Muggle Britain in the 90s or at least point me towards some good sources I can research on my own; wikipedia spends a good deal more time discussing the modern system than how it worked before the reform. Specifically I'd like help understanding A-levels as they existed in the 90s before Curriculum 2000. The story idea is that someone wants to get some sort of muggle qualifications after Hogwarts but has this massive 7-8 year gap in their education. Is there some way someone could manage to fill this gap? In America I'd guess you could overcome the problem with a GED or perhaps through a community college. Is there an equivalent in the UK?

 

No UK equivalent to GED. A-Levels aren't really anything like a standard school leaving certificate - they're more like AP exams, both in terms of the level of the content and the way you take them in individual subjects.

Basically, secondary school in the UK ends at 16. People now take GCSEs at age 16; they used to be called O-levels until 1988. Different name, basically the same thing: a series of subject-specific exams which covers a broad curriculum. Everyone has to take the core subjects - English Language, English Literature, Mathematics, and Science(s) - and then have a measure of choice over what other subjects they take (normally around 10 GCSEs in total). There's no kind of GPA or average - you receive grades (A*-G) for each subject, where C is considered an acceptable level. GCSEs are about the same level as the SATs in the US.

As you're taking 10 subjects and each subject can have more than one exam associated with it (e.g. for mathematics you take one exam with a calculator, one without) people end up facing an exam period of a couple of weeks in which they take around 15-20 exams.

If you want, you can continue after GCSEs from secondary school on to college, which is just two years long - ages 17 and 18. At college you take the aforementioned A-Levels, which you need to enter university. It's not possible to enter university with GCSEs alone. The average work load is 4 A-Levels, in any combination of subjects (for example, I took mathematics, physics, biology, economics and religious studies).

In the time period you're considering, A-Levels were 2 years of study followed by a very intense exam period like the GCSEs. Modern A-Levels are modular in format, with exams spread out over the 2 years and a lot of coursework too. If you take half of the modules of an A-Level you can get a "half A-Level" called an AS-Level (introduced 2000). Recently there have been some calls to return to the more intense "final exam" system of years past, in the face of perceived easiness of modern A-Levels (you can retake any module any number of times until you get the grade you want, for example).

Though I framed A-Levels as university entry qualifications, a good number of people take A-Levels but leave education at 18. It's becoming increasingly rare to leave education at 16 but in the 90s it was more common than now.

 

So presumably this hypothetical student would have to take their GCSEs, go to college to study for A-levels, and then off to University for their proper degree? I would imagine that, while uncommon, it must be possible to then take or retake GCSEs after the "standard" year, yes? Same for the A-levels. From what I can tell retaking is often done by going to the same colleges where people study for their A-levels?

For realism, how disadvantaged would such a student be having come from a Hogwarts curriculum that doesn't appear to emphasize English, Math, Science, etc. assuming that they didn't make an effort to study their muggle subjects along side their magical ones (even Hermione didn't appear to do that, for instance)?

 

I don't think they'd have to take GCSEs. Only A-Levels are required for university entry, so they could just take those. Taking an A-Level without being enrolled in a school can be difficult though. Only approved centres (aka colleges) can administrate the exams, and only students at those colleges are normally allowed to sit those exams, and only those under 18 are able to go to colleges.

It's not impossible - there are some colleges that allow people to come in and sit exams, and magic can't hurt your chances. You generally have to pay if you want to take them as a mature student though.

It's worth noting at this point that a good number of colleges - called "Sixth Form colleges" in full - are attached to schools so that you continue directly from the end of secondary school into college. A lot of people consider college part of secondary school, especially the Middle Class. The very name - Sixth Form - indicates that, as the old system of school years was thus:

Age - Modern Name - Old Name
12 - Year 7 - Lower IV
13 - Year 8 - Upper IV
14 - Year 9 - Lower V
15 - Year 10 - Middle V
16 - Year 11 - Upper V
17 - Year 12 - Lower VI
18 - Year 13 - Upper VI

In terms of academic disadvantage, it depends on both Hogwarts and the course in question. If we assume that Hogwarts has an equivalent level of academic rigor to Muggle schools (e.g. same standards of essay writing) then a Hogwarts student could do fine at a Muggle university in certain courses. A great many university courses assume no prior knowledge and begin with an introduction (albeit a fast-paced and advanced introduction).

That said, anything mathematical and the Hogwarts student would need to be doing serious catch up. First year of university level physics assumes competence at calculus (studied to a reasonably high level in A-Level mathematics, including differentiation of parametric equations, integration by parts, volumes of revolution, some basic differential equations, etc) when you enter the door.

 

How about the fact that, as far as we know, Hogwarts doesn't teach English. Does this mean that wizarding society has the English knowledge of 10 year olds? I imagine a first years 'essays' are terrible, unless every quill has some kind of enchantment that makes coherent sentence structure.

 

They have quills that correct/force/impart correct spelling, and I imagine that basic essay structure and grammar is something that is picked up over the years of schooling.

 

Yes, Hogwarts doesn't appear to teach many things adults/graduates are expected to know and the incoming class of eleven year olds are expected to not know. Fandom tries to reconcile this is many ways, like other such problems with the world building. A satisfactory in-world explanation may never be constructed.

 

My pet theory is that understanding of how complex world really is would make using magic harder. For example somebody with even basic knowledge of neurology would have trouble with casting mind control magic. So the ignorance is deliberately introduced.

 

Math, English? Muggle nonsense.

 

To be fair, Muggle schools don't really teach English either. Once you hit secondary school the focus is on reading texts and talking about what they mean, not the mechanics of how to use the language. You learn more about how to structure an essay in classes like history than English.

 

I have a question which has been bothering me for a while. What exactly are Ancient Runes in HP canon? Do they have any practical use at all?

 

Everything we see in canon indicates it's just an language course. It is a class were you learn to read ancient runes (quite possibly multiple types), which many old magical books are written in.

I compiled all the relevant quotes a while back. Read here.

 

So I guess it stands to reason that Bill and his curse breaking brethren read runes etched on walls of tombs or something in the hope that the runes tell them more about possible curses? As opposed to the runes themselves being curses or whatever.

 

Runes and curse breaking are not connected in canon. Arithmancy is the only mentioned requirement.

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix:

In fact, this could be taken to imply that Ancient Runes are not a requirement. If they were, they would be mentioned by Harry along side Arithmancy as reasons he couldn't do it but Hermione could. Of course, human speech is not a logic exercise, and this is probably reading more into the paragraph than either Harry or Rowling intended.

 

Huh?

I'd say at least half of English education was spent on sentence structure, vocabulary, essay structure, and forming content sentences. The natural way a person writes doesn't really look a lot like the way we write essays today; look at how young children write large bodies of text and you'll find it vastly different from the way someone with a few years of English education under their belt will. Less run on sentences, fewer clunky words, etc. I would hate to read essays from someone who not only had no formal wiring education, but was left for 7 years or so to basically make up all their own rules and formatting.

 

I actually have to agree with Taure. Most of my English lessons through high school were spent on deconstructing texts and analyzing stuff.

Admittedly, we learnt from this. Pulling things apart is a decent way to learn how to put them back together, and we did receive feedback on our written work.

But the only time I can recall when we had a lesson on putting an essay together was the first time we met "Compare/Contrast X and Y".

 

Note that we're discussing the British education system, Wildfeather.

In Britain you don't learn about things like verbs and adjectives in English class. I vaguely recall a class or two on correct use of commas. But most classes are spent studying literature, or writing about various topics.

Here's an example of GCSE English specifications (GCSEs, as mentioned above, are taken at age 16; you start studying for them at age 14-15 but a lot of education prior to GCSEs is oriented in laying the foundations for them):

Language
Literature

Check out the "specification at a glance" sections.

Literature

Unit 1: Understanding Prose
Study of two prose texts. Themes, meanings, social commentary, etc.

Unit 2: Understanding Poetry
Study of a themed poetry anthology (e.g. war poems).
Practice in analysing a previously unseen poem.

Unit 3: Shakespeare and Drama
Study of one Shakespeare text.
Study of one contemporary drama.

Language

Unit 1: English Today
Study and analysis of non-fiction texts (e.g. newspaper articles). Stuff like identifying bias via analysing word choice and tone, use of authority and quotations, etc.

Unit 2: The Writers Voice
Analysing the language of a text and how it is used to create various effects. Stuff like metaphor, imagery; in poetry things like alliteration, assonance, etc.

Unit 3: Spoken Language
Public speaking skills.


There's no vocabulary or spelling tests, no sentence analysis in terms of "which word in this sentence is a verb?". It's all about how English is used, not how English is formed. It's assumed that, as native speakers, you know how to form it.

There will be some stuff like how to correctly structure formal and informal letters, the differences between persuasive writing and descriptive writing in Language Unit 1.

After you've taken GCSE English at 16 you can discontinue your study of English.

 

To expand on my question about Dementors and voldemort, would it be possible for a Dementor to kiss a hocrux?

 

The only way to destroy a horcrux is to destroy the receptacle beyond magical repair. There is no way to attack the soul piece directly - that's why they make such good anchors.

 

Hmm, so basically when you destroy a hocrux you're not destroying the soul but rather the vessel, correct?