There is another way to look at it. I like to think of it as the atheist way. Magic is not part of nature, but humans exercising their will upon the world. Every magical thing/being we see is made by wizards. So serving the wizards is the reason why house elves exist and Dobby is the first to break away from their creators.

 

That's a human-centric viewpoint, not necessarily an atheist one.

 

Since people mentioned religion, this remember something. What religion/religious thoughtmthe wizards have? And being an atheist is out of question, with having a soul being proved and all. Unlike that retarded fic, Methods of Rationality where the atheist author disregard this to show how being an atheist make you smarter. Fucking Dawkins-wannabes. So what? The christmas thing is weird, but no proof on either. Maybe a buddhist life cycle alike thing?

 

Atheist literally means lack of belief in a god. There is no other requirement. You can believe in souls, fairies and little green men an still be an atheist. You can subscribe to any number of atheistic philosophies, both moral and immoral, and still be an atheist. You can believe in magic both real (as in the HP world) and not real (as in the real one) and still be an atheist, as long as you don't involve gods. So yes, wizards can be atheists and still accept souls. The fact that souls are a proven thing means it would be silly not to, like denying water or electromagnetism.

Whether they do believe in a god is another matter entirely. But we don't really see much evidence for one, other than some purely cultural touches here and there. The Fat Friar is probably the best evidence but we don't get his story. Is he the norm or an exception? Have the times changed. Was religion common pre Statute of Secrecy but less so now?

 

Actually I'm an atheist and I'm pretty sure HP magic is real.

 

Wizards make their own gods.

 

From books it seems to be case of religion reduced to cultural tradition (de facto atheism). There are Christmas, Easter holidays, carols scene in DH etc. But there is no sign of any religious structures or ceremonies at Hogwarts, no priest in any form at wedding. On the other hand graves are on cemetery near the church and Harry's parents grave have citation from the Bible.

It is not ignored, Harry and Dumbledore discuss this topic (AFAIK there is entire chapter about this).

Hatred toward this story from some DLP members is hilarious.

 

Don't generalise Invictus' opinion as being DLP's. He's been a member here for even less time than you have. He also seems to have a raging hardon against atheism without knowing what it is. Apparently any use of the scientific process or logical thinking is atheism according to Invictus. He's a few screws short of a hardware store, so I don't pay him too much attention.

The author's ego clashes with DLP aside, Methods of Rationality is an example of poor story telling. It's not all bad, but it's deeply flawed. Some of its fans will gain a more discriminating taste, re-read it in a handful of years and wonder why they ever liked it. That seems to happen to me with disturbing regularity.

 

According to Pottermore, the Friar was killed by his own order after some suspiciously magical acts, though I can't remember whether he was a believer. Most of the wizards we see seem to remain pretty secular in their commentary, and Hermione, IIRC, is the only one to ever say Oh My God, whereas wizards seem to reference Merlin the same way, which implies to me that they see magic, or magical power, as the sort of be-all, end-all Ultimate Reality, or at least, if they do have a God, they're rather Deist about it.

 

Really?

This skips any references to godfather, Godric, Godelot (brief owner of the Elder wand) or exclamations by muggles or muggle-raised like Harry, Hermione, Ted Tonks, Vernon and Tom Riddle Sr.'s fiancee.

It cracks me up that the first reference to God comes from Draco's mouth. Ron says it the most of the purebloods, followed by Minister Cornelius Fudge of all people. I also think it's funny that JKR was so careful not to mention Him for the first two books.

 

Edit: Nevermind

 

Well, I stand corrected, though I did say 'IIRC,' which I clearly didn't. Nice job gathering all the references so fast though.

 

Lol, I should re-read the series. I thought it was all fanon, and wizards always exclaimed "Merlin, etc".

 

IMO, JKR let the subject alone because she just didn't want to get into the questino of "religion."

That doesn't mean a belief in God or gods did or did not exist, only that it wasn't germane to the books.

However, since the wizarding world was set in what seems for the most part like the dark ages or just after, and during that period there was a high level of belief in some type of higher deity, whatever that deity was called, I'd think that there would be at least a slight majority of wizards/witches that believed in some sort of deity.

And, since in virtually every age, there are those who are agnostic/atheistic in their belief, I'd think that would extend to the wizarding world as well. Show me one society of people that are truly monolithic in their beliefs, especially when there's not overt pressure to believe one way or the other.

 

I agree. The winning move is not to play.

 

How about a nice game of chess?

 

Unfortunately not since people like to force you to. The winning move would be to not even know it at all.

 

I have a rather silly question that I'll probably be destroyed for. Oh well.

Can someone explain to me what an Indy!Harry fic is or how a fic is classified as one? I do not understand this. I'll leave what I've thought it was up till now to your imagination, as if its not what I've been thinking I'll be further embarrassed by the need to ask.

 

Hehe. Nice.
Oh my God, guys!

This won't answer anything, but it's an interesting factoid: The house elves bear some similarity to the tale of The Elves and The Shoemaker.

For those unfamiliar with the story, or don't remember it from childhood, a poor couple start getting up in the morning to find that the materials set out for the husband's shoe making business are being used to make kick-ass shoes during the night. This keeps happening, and they discover that it's the work of a pair of young elves.

The business starts doing so well, that the couple decide to make fancy clothes for their elvish helpers, and leave the clothes out one night, instead of material for shoes. The elves find the bitchin' pimp suits, put them on, and then leave, never to return.

The connection between this tale and house elves being freed/fired by giving them clothes should be pretty obvious. This still doesn't answer why the elves in the tale decide to help the couple by making shoes at night, nor why they never come back after being given clothes.

The biggest unanswered question, as it concerns the Harry Potter series, is why house elves keep working for abusive pricks? They do seem to enjoy their work, which would make them reluctant to leave a household... except they could presumably get work anywhere. Who wouldn't want a house elf?

Not counting Hermione.

Who couldn't find work for a house elf, if one showed up looking for something to do? Got a little land and not enough time to do anything with it? Plant some crops or get some animals and set the elf to work. Pretty soon, you've either got a nice little side-income, or possibly enough homegrown food to become a subsistence farmer, with no grunt work on your part and little financial outlay beyond your initial investment.

There's virtually no such thing as a person who couldn't find some use for a house elf.

The Weasleys surely could have used a few around the homestead, what with them having seven kids and a smattering of farm animals. Despite that, they never had house elves.

Was it because they couldn't afford elves, implying you have to pay for them, thus indicating slavery?

At the very least, it would seem to indicate that elves don't show up on your doorstep just because you have work. However, in GoF, Winky tells Harry that she expressed to Dobby that he should find himself a nice family and settle down. It would seem that an elf is free to find a family they want to work for.

So, again, what's the deal with Dobby ever having worked for the Malfoys? Was it a mistake he felt he couldn't walk away from? Dobby? Is there some magic that keeps the elf bound to a family, once they join the household, even though the elf was free to make the initial decision to work for them or not? Or, are some/all elves simply born into the service of a family and are stuck serving them because their parents did, too?

Malfoy sure was pissed when Harry tricked him into freeing Dobby. Was that simply anger that his overweening pride was bruised over being tricked by a preteen boy, or is it because house elves are somehow hard to come by? After all, he certainly had the money to buy another, if they're for sale.

If elves are only bound to a household after freely choosing to work there, Lucius's temper tantrum might make more sense. Word could have gotten out among the elves that the Malfoys were asshats, and no elves were choosing to join the household, anymore - meaning that Dobby would be hard to replace.

If they aren't bought and sold slaves, what's tying them to abusive masters? An oath? Social stigma? Is house elf 'society' such that leaving your 'master' is a mark of deep shame? Like, "Well, if they're abusive, you must be doing your job wrong. Now, get back to work."

And, the Hogwarts elves certainly aren't being abused, because it's hard to abuse someone you have absolutely zero contact with (unless you're Hermione, then you leave hats). They go mostly unseen at the school, to the point that Hermione had no clue they were even there. She spent every waking moment in a castle, crawling with a small army of elves, for the bulk of a year and she had no idea they had elves... or possibly that even such a thing existed.

In OoTP, we find out that, despite Hermione's inability to free the Hogwarts elves, they buggered off and left Gryffindor tower for Dobby to clean by himself, because they were personally offended by her unwanted attempts at emancipating them. They sure don't act like people who would ever want to quit working for the humans.