Sorry for the massive bump of a thread I stumbled upon, but I think the best way to "justify" this is that theres a part of the Muggle govs that know wizards exist, and thus prepare for any possibility, war or otherwise.

Much like how the USA has invasion plans of invading Canada or Aliens landing on the whitehouse lawn deep in the bowels of the pentagon, the UK would probably have plans somewhere for a wizarding conflict, with mi-5 gathering intel through the years etc and trying to develop ways around muggle repelling charms and stuff.

It'll probably start out at the start of book 5 where Fudge pisses off the pm yet again treating him as a child and not informing him about anything while more and more muggleborns and muggles in general are killed/tortured/obliviated/ dementors and giants destroying homes and killing ppl etc....then the mass Azkaban breakout 5/6 months later might be the last straw and the PM might order small scale special forces to hit centralized targets to send a clear message....and things would escalate from there.

In fact, I actually made a rough "outline" of a Wizard/muggle war based loosely on Tom Clancy's Clear and Present Danger, just the bare backbones of creating the conflict and its escalation.


I can post it somewhere if you all like, a lot of people say it's really interesting neat idea.

Shamefully, even though I'm a honour student, and I'm a decent paper writer, fiction isn't my thing. I wouldn't be able to do it justice at all imho, I just don't have the talent for it

 

You're right to not try.

 

What Andro said.

If you feel compelled to post it, we have a Plot Bunny thread for just that purpose.

 

I really don't think there's a realistic way for this to happen. Even if wizards were initially caught off-guard (assuming muggles find a way around some of the protective magic), they would be able to respond in force with all of the other magic that muggles would have no idea about and no defense against. This argument has been rehashed over and over, however, and I don't really want to go into all of the reasons why I think magic would win.

You might as well post your outline, though. It might be interesting to look at.

 

:fireThis entire idea makes me want to set things on fire. Small and fluffy things.

The muggles vs wizards debate has been beaten to death many times. I believe wizards would win, but that doesn't really matter. If you want to involve Muggles with magic, write an AU (EDIT: I should probably clarify that I mean AU in the massive sense, ala Skitterleap or Lords of Magic. One where virtually everything in the world is reworked, not one that has a largely canon world with a divergence at some point in the books.) There is absolutely no compelling reason nor a compelling way to involve Muggles with the HP magical world if you're diverging from the books. For that matter, there's no reason to involve Muggles at all. It's a magic world, Muggles are boring and no one gives a fuck.

If you really want to post it though, here you go. Plot Bunny Thread

tl;dr What Andro said.

 

Here's a link to my premise...its really rough and I vomited it out onto the screen

http://forums.darklordpotter.net/showthread.php?p=432227#post432227

Thanks for the replies by the way, the more i read it the more I realize there's a few too many "what if's"...a lot would need to be worked out.

While running it seemed like a good idea in my head though...but then again i was experiencing lack of oxygen

I think though that someting kind of like this might be a good way to go about it.

---------- Post automerged at 01:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 AM ----------

Well yes it would be a AU obviously.....I just think a decent compelling way could be found and be made interesting for entertainments sake.

i'm not here to start a "omfg muggles would kick their ass!!11!!!"....

I just want to see if theres a cool way to bring both worlds together in a scenario, it wouldnt be a whole scale secret being unveiled occurence, but only a minority would find out.

Cheers!

 

Muggle vs Magical is unrealistic as hell. A more realistic way to do it would be wizards on the side of the magical government vs wizards and muggles on the side of the muggle government. Just have MI5 implementing a generous recruitment package for disgruntled muggleborns, halfbloods and out-of-favour purebloods and you've got the beginnings of a fun little conflict brewing. Or you can have the House of Windsor having a stake in or at least knowledge of the wizarding world - they've been in power since 1066, so at some point one of them must have gotten wind of the wand-waving buggers running around.

That said, from the content of your posts, you sound like one of the last people who could write this idea well.

 

WTF? The name "Windsor" wasn't even adopted before 1917! 1066 was the year of the invasion of the British Isles through William the Conquereror, the founder of the Norman dynasty of english kings.

 

I believe the House of Stuarts, the House of Hanover, the House of Tudor, the House of Plantagenet, its cadet branches of Lancaster and York and William the Conqueror's inital successors would very much disagree with that belief. Windsor has been around since 1917 in that name, Tehan.

If you want a chronological look:
Normans
Plantagenet
Lancaster
York
Tudor
Stuarts
Hanover
Windsor

/sizable knowledge of English history.

 

While the corrections are, well, correct, if he meant the muggle Royal Family in general then it's entirely feasible. Before the statute of secrecy (1692) and the evolution of the tenants-in-chief into a parlimentary system (1649), there's no reason British and other European Royals wouldn't be well aware of the existence of magic, whether for or against it. /eyes own sig and that's all I'll say on that.

You could also do some interesting bits with other parts of international history which Rowling left up for grabs. I've always wanted to write a Rasputin-as-an-HP-Wizard thing.

 

Waiting for Taure...

 

(sigh) This isn't going to end well.

Also: people always bring up either the 'muggle versus magical' debate or a plot bunny based along those lines every few months...I don't think I've seen a "Oh shit, muggles have made SkyNet and it's now nuking the planet/humans" scenario, however.

 

Look, if I changed my name every few years, it would be perfectly valid to refer to me by my latest nom de plume when discussing my history as a whole. The British throne has stayed in the family of William the Conquerer ever since Harold bit the dust at Hastings, even if said family has changed it's name and interbred with every other goddamn royal family in Europe in the meantime.

And all of you fucks knew what I meant, anyway, and chose to pretend you didn't so you could show everyone how good you were at using Wikipedia. I'd be pissed if it weren't for the fact that any story written by this guy is probably doomed anyway without the thread being derailed into a discussion of the British monarchy.

 

Actually, I've a bit of an interest in history, which is why I know all the different houses, if only from memory and not in-depth study.

But yeah, Windsor has inheritance dating back to Normans, but making the claim that Windsor is the same as William's family isn't accurate, which was kinda the point I was making. Considering how many intermarriages and cadet branches became senior branches over time, any "stake or knowledge of the wizarding world" would be much less diminished than if it was a single solid dynasty for nearly a millenia, than successor branches fighting each other over time for power, plus foreign blood married in. Heck, considering Hogwarts is in Scotland and when the magical society split from the muggles, one can make the assumption that the Stuart dynasty post-union is when the Stuarts started their contact with the fledgling Ministry of Magic and all that instead of a hidden community with a much less organized representation.

Also Tehan, didn't you say discussion and arguments is something you wanted more in DLP as of late? We can easily take this to Real Life if you want to keep it going?

 

Hell, please do. I think a thread about how to make the British government and/or Royal Family a mover and shaker in the wizarding world would be quite profitable, divorced from this Malcolm Tucker fruitcake (and hopefully with an electric fence to keep Taure out).

It seems to me that all the royal families of Europe being so feud-happy and interbred would only increase the chances that somebody knows about magic, either as a hold-out from an era when keeping magic a secret was for pussies, or from a particular royal family finding out about it from an arrangement similar to the one between the British PM and the Minister of Magic, or just from them having a muggleborn in the family at some point and finding out that way. And that's assuming that, in a world where magic exists, the royal families who made the world move and shake for over a millenia were completely without it.

I believe Gentleman Usher of the Scarlet Rod by our very own Heather Sinclair dabbled in this idea, but it's been forever since I read it.

 

...

What were you expecting to happen when you fielded this idea?

 

A discussion of the British monarchy becoming involved in the Harry Potter world. Not a wrangle over whether a cadet branch becoming a senior branch by the extinction of a pre-existing senior branch still counts as being an unbroken line from the original Willy C.

 

Basic corrections. Yeah, we knew what you meant, but it technically wasn't correct. No big deal.

Back to;

As in, I'm game for a discussion on how to make that work.

The problem I'm forseeing is that before the Ministry of Magic (apparently founded in the 1600's, tieing in somewhat to the development of muggle politics) there was the central body that was the Wizengamot, if memory serves, which probably wouldn't be legislative and judiciary and sounds more of a circle-of-chieftains thing, regulating local magical people to some small extent, than a real, centric government. This is pre-Western-democracy, as well - would a central wizarding government have been feudal? Run like a hierarchal religion? In an entirely feudal and very primitive system, would there have been muggleborn, magical people in the nobility?

A central governing body doesn't seem to fit with the times, and it seems rather like wizards would have been integrated into muggle society, being as much a part of it but with one or two safe havens (Hogwarts, Hogsmeade), than have their own central community. The formation of the statute of secrecy ties into the foundations of the ministry, indicating that with the development of a central government a hidden community was then created, rather than upheaved.

It's the impression I've always got from the little tidbits we've been given about pre-canon history, and what I'm implementing somewhat in HPAC both in terms of feudal lords and with small, fringe communities of wizards (though that part is predominantly going to be in France).

 

The Wizengamot seems vaguely like it's the modern-day remnant of a sort of international wizarding republic - like height-of-power Venice or the East India Company and others like it, except about magic rather than trade goods, if that makes sense. Or possibly more like the Papacy, with it's members drawn from all the countries of the world but beholden only to it's own internal power structure...

And to further confuse the issue, I've just been informed by my spellchecker that 'mugwump' is a word outside of HP, and looking it up has just given me a headache.

 

On a side note, pre-dating the Wizengamot was a Wizard's Council or something, apparently.

I've always thought that wizarding politics and its system (Ministry, Wizengamot, ICW) were the wizarding parallels to the House of Parliament, House of Lords and an odd mix of the Commonwealth/UN.

Then again, it has been a while since I've read the books: maybe I've missed something?