dC, what do you think of the specific points made on Zenzao since the flip?

Namely, the timing of his jumping on, and the scumslip I noted above.

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fonti, thoughts on dC? Especially play since flip?

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This got lost in my eureka, but

Yeah, he kinda did: he said it would be ~24h a few times.

All of this is very bad. Especially not fond of the "worse-off fish to fry" spiel: it's basically name-dropping "I was going after Waco", and its place within a back-off/wishy-washy approach to me feels a lot like offering up alternatives to me to be pushed, especially Stanari.

 

First off, making me have to manually quote you one by one like this because you were asinine enough to insert your response in my wall isn't doing you any favors.

Not when you made that post you hadn't.

Yes, it is bullshit. And also yes, I do have an extensive meta with Vaimes. I don't have 20+ games because I only play once in a few months over the past four years, but I know his meta across our games together, more so after BBB over on MTGSalvation where he played differently to DLP and I was riding him as scum for the entire game(he wasn't) and from Narutomafia(he was scum), and he played differently. This game he isn't Narutomafia!Vaimes, he's a crossblend of BBB!Vaimes and his usual self, and that for me is alignment indicative.

I don't dismiss meta because its my primary indicator for behavior on DLP when playing with players I know well and take the time to learn, but when I suspect you've got an agenda you're pushing behind your claim of meta, I'm going to call you out on it. You and I played for such a short period of time in MM before you replaced out that I have little first-hand experience of how you play, so I have to base my response to your posts against the crossdrop I've developed from multiple games and multiple players, and that often indicates town/scum behavior just fine.

See the above. Yes, you are trying to tie yourself to Regfan, because he's the only one that is actively defending you.

Combined with your previous behavior it is scummy. And if I'm not the only one dinging you for it, maybe take it at face value instead of trying to discredit it. I don't remember exactly who it was who said it earlier, but the point is that scum have to try harder with feigning scumhunting because they already know exactly who is town, so yes, you lolololing out of collecting reads when the game is already pretty well underway is a problem.

Yeah, where was this outrage D1 when I walled Jarizok and referenced this kind of behavior then?

Yeah, its called laying out what has happened to distinguish fact from my opinion.

When you're doing the same thing as earlier and doubling down on the same person town-reading you the most, again, it comes across as having an alternative agenda.

I have invited everyone in this game to cross-examine my walls and point out inconsistencies. I have amended my opinion on Fable in the light of Acio, dC, and Regfan's corrections. And no shit I'm looking at you, Jarizok, and Fable from a scummy perspective because you have all done scummy things, that's why I've started with you three who have been at the top of my walls, or are you each universally town-read from the beginning of the game to now? I'm not the only one calling you out for stuff like this, Cobalt.

And as I said to Jarizok yesterDay, I find it odd that he would rather find townies than scum. That is my mindset. Not everything a player does that is scummy is going to be an actual scum behavior, but enough of them stacked up tends to indicate a good chance.

To use your own words against you, she and I share similar viewpoints. Unlike you and Regfan, however, I do find flaws in her earlier posts.

 

Honestly, I slacked off for a couple hours after Waco got shot and then did a brief skim. I'll have to go back and do another reread->catchup cycle before I can properly evaluate. I'm sitting on Jarizok because it's the quickest way to start doing SOMEthing.

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EBWOP: I will say I assumed Zenzao's timing of jump-on was purely because that's when he arrived at the thread, though. Was there evidence to the contrary on that?

 

dC: It's more the way Zen went "why are we voting Q?" and then voted Q like two minutes later.

 

Threads moving too quickly and too distracted to actually try and keep up with it at the moment, likely just going to focus on the rereading and then catch up and jump back in with it later, hoping Fontisan has her reads wall up by then and I'll work towards having mine done too. Think todays lynch is pretty pivotal.

Done quick skims of Waco's ISO as well as my strong town circles comments re; him and I'm still pretty comfortable moving forward with Acio, DC, Vaimes, Fable & Blab being lock town still, got a few others I'd consider adding to this pile but needs more research into; I specifically liked Fables stance on Waco inside Post #473 and didn't mind Blabs response given it matched my thoughts at the time in Post #479; think if he was scum attempting to sneak a partner into his town reads he'd not respond in that sort of fashion at all. The interaction between Acio/Fable/Waco where they're bouncing thoughts and opinions on Q around Post #579 - less the specific post but the posts in that area and the context of it points pretty heavily towards them being town too. His stance on DC similarly in Post #761 feels more like him trying to add 'original reasoning' behind town reading DC while disagreeing with some of the earlier one that was presented which makes significantly more sense if he's town. I think that flip makes me feel a lot better about my town core being correct.

fontisian - I do have one question since Vaimes isn't around, there was a point where Vaimes asked Jarizok to claim as in he was shooting him before I urged him to change it to Waco - I want to know your involvement just before, between and after that.

 

I think Reg's, uh, bitterness here is kind of town?

 

Referring to these quotes for you to do a timestamp check re; your QT posts if needed.

 

I was working at the time, and didn't tell him to do it. Previously, I had explained why I thought Jari might be town in our chat (this was a bit before posting it in the thread). I did say that Jari was not a bad shot if he wasn't convinced by me, because that meant Jari would be a likely mislynch anyway if I was right. And I wasn't even entirely certain I right.

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Oh, I had also asked him if he thought jari had fallen off activity wise just before that, with the implication that that was a strong scum indicator in the last game.

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Fontisian
Vaimes
Acionyx
dC
Quiddity
Cobalt
Stanari
Miner
Reg
Blab
Fable
Jari
Kai
Pie
Zen

Heh, Jari actually ended up in my likely scumteam anyway. Stanari is so high because I think her response to the shot was super genuine.

 

I want to re-emphasize just how bad this is. Zenzao has just been called out for jumping onto me only after others pointed it out. His response is basically "you are w/w with Waco, you defended so you could have pushed it onto Jarizok". Given this, one would conclude a) he thinks I am scum, and Jarizok town, and b) his read on me is a strong one, I am a prominent enough scum to consider assume others towniness in the process.

This is dressed up in some backing off language, but this remains the theme. He doesn't actually say I look better, he says he may reconsider on closer examination and then adds more about how he dislikes me.

(This also means these are his surface thought: off the cuff he makes this assessment. Thus, his scum-read on Jarizok is not deeply ingrained, despite writing a ton on it. This is part of why I think this is definitely a slip, not a mistake.)

Spoiler

Then we go to the rest of it:

Suddenly, I am maybe scum, but Jarizok is a definitely. The maybe on me makes sense in context: he's backing off a bit, the worm has turned. The Jarizok read doesn't. It undermines the entire first portion of the post.

Same thing here, but more explicit:

So, what does this point to?

Zenzao is catching up, sees a ton of votes on me after the flip, is surprised, looks for a reason. Jumps on a growing wagon, pretends he hadn't read up fully.

(Opportunistic scum.)

He's getting called out by a number of players, both that move and him specifically. He's still kind of behind/can't devote his full attention to the thread, but wants to interject to stop this. So he writes this post, hedging a bit about me but trying to thread the needle of a) keeping a potentially killer wagon alive, and b) backing off a little.

In the process, he forgets his read on Jarizok. Jarizok isn't really a focus of the thread, so he doesn't make the connection in his own mind. He has to grasp at straws like this because he didn't think I was scum on his own, he didn't see these connections himself. Opportunistic. Doesn't believe in his reads. Trying to keep easy lynches alive.

Kill the wolf.

 

I'd put money on all of the blues being town.

 

Zenzao give a defense, any defense.

Or not. I mean, it's really obvious what you're going to say, and it really doesn't matter.

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Hmm. Fonti, do you think Zenzao's slip makes Jarizok more or less likely to be scum?

 

Look back at Waco here vs MM vs HPM vs Narutomafia. He had a delayed presence in both this game and MM, and while I did scumread him eventually there, he was more active. I believe he was more active in HPM though I cannot say with certainty right now. He was certainly more active in Narutomafia with Ponzai.

In hindsight he essentially lurked out this game, and the points I've seen raised mostly by pienyan against him for his pushes against her stand out more now that he has flipped. This is the first time I've seen him as scum, and he does come off poorly against the backdrop of our past games. I'm also probably being influenced by my reads of Cobalt and Jarizok, more so Cobalt at the moment, but read what I posted on him and tell me that you don't see at least something of scum in his behavior at this point? So no, it isn't 'easy' 'game solved yo' right now, but it sure as hell isn't as hard as it was before Waco's flip.

Go back and look closer, because he's in my earlier posts leading up to the last wall to read through and sort out of null after I was done with Cobalt.

Most of the past dozen pages since DayStart haven't been deeply read. I've skimmed to catch up, and certain parts stand out to me more than others, including the situation with Vaimes being DayVig and setting a longcon re: Acio.

If the discussion is between you and Waco as the shots, and Waco hasn't been around to claim, then yes, you should have had a chance to talk Vaimes off of that shot, though whether or you could have convinced him onto Jarizok given Jarizok's suspicions on and off I don't know. I'm surprised at how quickly Vaimes decided to yolo it.

No, I think Cobalt is the more likely option between he and Jarizok following my read of him and then Waco's flip, but I haven't dismissed Jarizok as a possibility, thank you.

 

I don't see what you like about this, Q.

Also, Vaimes still owes me his Fable read.

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Oh the hand, less. I don't want to commit to this right now, I need to go over Zen's posts again.

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How does the flipped scum being obvious in hindsight make the rest of the game easier though?

 

Who is more likely to be scum, me or Jarizok.

 

Oh, duh, if Zen flips mafia, Fable is clear.

 

I don't like that from Fable, fonti.

Before The Great Reset, I liked Fable for some interactions he'd had, but I can't remember which ones.

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So? You weren't pushing him, and that's what you implied.

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Why?

/brainteaser number 3.

 

I think Waco's accusation that Pie was looking for a mslynch opportunity inside Post #233 actually points towards Cobalt being town; I think the fact that he explicitly states that he's null on Cobalt there feels with the flip is a pretty large indicator that Cobalts town imo. I don't think he'd chainsaw attack Pie in that sort of manner about a partner, it's even less likely that the three of them are all scum. Still continue to find Cobalts early posting very genuine and much more in-line with his town play there. I really like all of his thoughts in Post #1056 despite them being very short reads and liked his reaction towards the flip with his scum team guess in Post #1366 not being too different from mine. I find his reaction towards Fontisian in Post #1368 -> particularly Post #1375 -> Post #1388 -> Post #1395 as really fucking genuine.

I'm ready to move Cobalt back to my locktown area.

 

Uh, they had a huge fight. Fable seemed really genuinely emotional.

 

Oh, right. That.

Do we have any meta on Fable/emotion?

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I agree with Regfan on Cobalt.

Why don't you like Cobalt, fonti?

 

For the record, my problem with Cobalt's recent behavior is how he's approached his reads surrounding Waco and me.

D1 he maintained a weak scum read on me, but never actually posted a reason for it anywhere. The things that he *did* address to me were generally either explanatory or trying to help me understand his play/convince me my read on him was wrong (i.e. both things in #568), and then near the end of the day says "maybe pien" when talking about scum reads in a Plot-town Jari-scum world, but apart from that there's no explanation for the read anywhere.

He also didn't bring mention Waco at all and had him as dead null the entire D1. I don't *really* give a shit about this by itself, but it ties into what I'm going to say next really strongly.

Next, FF to #1107 and we get this.

He posts this, despite the fact he literally had not said anything about Waco in any way whatsoever before this, wasn't focusing on Waco at all, didn't have him as a scum read or anything. Reg wrote a whole post about me, and Cobalt specifically singles out Reg's point about me/Waco making sense as S/S, despite the fact that he specifically scum read me and Waco was *nowhere* on his radar before then. Moreover, he hadn't had a chance to explain his read on me yet. Why not take the opportunity to single out things Reg were saying about *my* play specifically that he agreed with instead of explicitly trying to link me to Waco, despite Waco not even being a thing for him.

Now, to be clear, I don't really take issue with people who have actually looked at and analyzed interactions between Waco and me and decided it makes sense as S/S. That's understandable, even though it's wrong. But this isn't that. FF again to #1357 and we get this:

Waco is someone who he hasn't thought about all game, and now that he flipped he hasn't seemed to have given it any thought or adjusted for it in any way whatsoever. At this point, the impression I get is that he hasn't *actually* thought through Waco/me at all and that his first post was an instance of TMI, i.e. he preemptively took the stance that we were scum together so that he wouldn't have to go and *actually* deal with coming up for a real explanation for why I'd have pushed Waco the way I did post-Waco flip. It reads like he's lined me up as a potential mislynch, and is taking care to make sure that his mislynch on me is left open knowing a Waco flip would happen soon rather than simply directly explaining his read on me and having to deal with actually coming up with a direct reason to back up his position on me after Waco flips.

This is also consistent with his general treatment of me throughout the game, which has been "maintain as a light scum read but instead goes to push other people and doesn't seriously engage it in any relevant way" - the whole thing just reads like he's keeping his options open more than anything.

I'd like to hear people's thought's about this. In particular Regfan; You better read this post because I just saw that you posted about Cobalt being "lock-town".