Harry P. didn't seem to object in the fourth book when the manager of the campgrounds got Obliviated multiple times. The only time he ever objects, in all the books (at least I think so), is when it's about to be done him by Lockhart in the second book.

 

Eh, I don't think manipulating people's minds in Dresden is wrong for any great feeling about the sanctity of the mind. Rather, it's about what manipulating people's minds does to the wizard (turns them into a warlock).

Also, with regards to the update, I have mixed feelings. It's good, yes, but you have to be careful with cliffhangers. They can entice the reader, but if you leave the reader hanging for too long nothing will turn the reader off a fic quicker. People hate unresolved cliffhangers, so I'm not sure if it's wise to write a cliffhanger at a time you yourself write that you won't be updating for a while.

 

Indeed. It brakes the Fourth Law of Magic, and the Laws of Magic don't care about Good or Evil. It's simply that A) doing it in the DV has side effects on the subject, and B) it tends to twist the mind of the user, as well. The intentions or situation or whatever? They don't mean shit. If the DV wizards could wipe minds without fucking both the target and themselves? They'd be wiping minds all over the place.

The Warden's and the WC don't really care about the moral standpoint thing.

 

As I posted in... some thread or another, the Obliviation does not techinically break any of the mental magic Laws. You are nether entering the target's mind or enslaving them to your will. Getting the White Council to believe you is another matter entirely.

This bugs me somewhat. As explained in Small Favor the White Council can't involve itself morally, as taking a side in any conflict would inevitably break the Council. The Wardens become emotionally hardened after seemingly endless hard choices. Saying they don't care is oversimplifying it.

 

I'd woundered if it broke the Laws for a bit, focusing on the Fourth, before deciding it wouldn't matter to the WC, if GP is anything to go by. However, I do agree that it probably isn't an actual violation. However, it's doubtful anyone in the WC would notice.

Allow me to rephrase that. The don't care about the moral standpoints involved in the breaking of the Laws.

 

I know where you're coming from but in PG Harry had the support of basically every wizard in the building. The only reason Molly was initially sentenced was because the Merlin is an ass.

Obliviation is no more breaking the Fourth Law then a Wizard withholding information. You're choices are most likely different because of what you do, or don't, know but you can still choose.

 

On the otherhand, all of those wizards were still going to go along with the execution. By the way, Molly was in fact guilty, so I'm not sure we can call the Merlin an ass for pernoncing her so. Especially since she ruin one woman's mind for years, and drove her boyfriend (probably) permanently insane. Especially since Molly would go on to break the Law two more times (and counting).

Technically correct, but not completely. Technically speaking, Obliviation removes ones ability to act upon certain things (the removed knowledge). Removing a persons ability to act in certain ways via tampering with their mind is a violation of the Fourth Law, as proven by Molly.

 

I'm not saying Molly wasn't guilty of breaking the Fourth Law, she was. What I'm saying, as did Dresden, is that Molly =/= The Korean kid. She was not yet irrevocably damaged by her use of magic and was thus worth saving. The Merlin, who doesn't like Dresden, ordered her execution 'just to be safe'.

On the otherotherhand we know the wizards present were stunned by the Merlin's decision. They did not agree with it at all. The Merlin, however, was acting lawfully and no one was going to challenge him on his decision (bar Dresden and the Gatekeeper).

Agreed on the last bit about Molly though. I have a feeling she's going to go BC sooner or later.

Technically correct is all you really need, the Laws must stand as written after all.

Your interpretation of what Molly did is unfortunately false. Molly did not remove a person's ability to act in a certain way, it's the opposite she forced them to act a certain way.

Rosie was made to feel fear about drugs and their effect on her baby, she was made to ignore the physical needs and urges of going cold turkey. Nelson was made to feel the same, Molly botched the spell however and he was, unintentionally made to feel severe fear over just about everything.

To use another example the hot lawyer chick from TC was made to hire a PI to follow Harry and report whatever he found out by Madeline.

Going from this it is safe to assume that a violation of the Fourth Law must force someone to think/feel/act in a certain way (binding their will). Unfortunately the mind-controlled will subconsciously, in humans at least, recognize they are being forced to act in a certain way and fight against it. A fight that literally damages their psyches and often as not leaves them insane.

Thus while Obviation definitely takes away responses the subject might make it never forces them to act in any way shape or form and certainly does not lead to an insanity-inducing mental showdown it is safe to conclude...

Obliviaton does not break the Fourth Law of Magic

 

Obliviation =/= Dresdenverse counterpart. In the Dresden Files the magic user has to force the target to not think about something, which is the opposite of what obliviation does. The most prominent difference I can give between the two would be that Dresdenverse memory wiping would still be vulnerable to a legilimens-style spell, while HPverse obliviation would not. At least that's my take on it.

 

Agreed.

I know that, and you know that, but is there any pssible way for the DV wizards to know that (with out breaking the Third Law)?

 

Not really. The best he could hope for is a Molly-esque situation, someone Soulgazing him (if it works) and declaring him an alright fellow. Given his.. activities as a Sentinel this is unlikely however.

 

The Gatekeeper knows that he's an outsider (non capital), which could work in his favour, and he's also been shown to be able to AK the demons, something that all the dresden wizards were all pretty shocked at. Theres also Harry's position, title of Sentinel. To me, that sounds like a very dresdenverse sort of position ala Warden etc, and not something that really fits well in the HPverse, which is a bit of foreshadowing for me.

So I think he's going to get off (obviously) and be either forced to help out the WC with the carrot on a stick of 'Do it and we'll send you back' or 'Do it or we'll kill you'.

 

The way I see it, Obliviation breaks the law of Magic. If I recall correctly, the law of magic says 'Don't invade the minds of others'. Invade is a particularly loose term in that sentence. It could mean something like legilimens, where you actually enter the other persons mind, or it could be along the lines of just tampering with the other persons mind.

 

By that definition Dresden's Notice-Me-Not charms (that are in common usage I might add) from TC would be a violation of the Law as he is 'tampering' with their minds.

 

I really don't think Ebenezer would be all that concerned with Harry breaking a law of magic, what with him helping fight off the vampires, killing the outsider, and saving his (and other wizards) life minutes earlier.

Also, he's the Blackstaff. He gets to break the laws of magic at will. I don't remember canon DF as well as some of you here, but I never got the impression he was all too hung up about the laws of magic like Morgan is.

Just doesn't seem to likely to me that he would go and pull a Morgan like that.

 

I believe Morgan coomented upon it being close, and Harry saying 'but everyone does it'.

Demons: Eb (and all of the Senior Council), take the Laws very seriously, according to Jim. Also, Eb has the Blackstaff, which allows him to use Black Magic without screwing himself, unlike everyone else. Also, he has expressed disgust over what he does, and disgust towards others who do so.

 

Just because McCoy is the Blackstaff, doesn't mean he takes the laws less seriously. The laws are there for a reason. One being that doing black magic, particularly messing with other people's minds, changes both the wizard and the victim in the Dresdenverse. We know that it isn't like that for Harry Potter, but McCoy doesn't.

 

Convince, what for? All he has to do is Obliviate the poor sod and this this will go away.