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Staff Announcement Regarding the DLP C2 and Enembee

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Rahkesh Asmodaeus, Jul 19, 2019.

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  1. Mal'sSerenity

    Mal'sSerenity Second Year

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    So, what do you think the chances are that he's going to delete all of his stories just to spite us?
     
  2. Hot Salsa

    Hot Salsa Hαn Sαlsæd First

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    He already did it on his C2. Depends on how he's feeling really.
     
  3. Mal'sSerenity

    Mal'sSerenity Second Year

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    Well then I'd better hurry up and read Forest of Valbone then before I lose the chance.
     
  4. Hot Salsa

    Hot Salsa Hαn Sαlsæd First

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    LOL Better start reading.
     
  5. Shouldabeenadog

    Shouldabeenadog Unspeakable

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    A proposition in regards to the blotter.
    I suggest a blotter that only publically shows for certain length of time, perhaps a month or 3 months. After that it goes into a mod only archive, which the mods could use as a storehouse of precedent they can refer to. Someone clever could even tag infractions to make it searchable by offense, but that would be on the mod side if it is even needed.
    I do not want the blotter to get long. First because a long blotter shows minor discrepancies that rules lawyers will latch onto and make trouble. Second because a full catalogue of infractions and punishers and punishments starts showing patterns that don't allow people to be forgiven. As I'm sure xiph can say, many people are acting very differently post 2015-16 than they did before. And those infractions dogging them and the moderators who inflicted them only servers as a way to build negative reputations for both sides.
     
  6. Hot Salsa

    Hot Salsa Hαn Sαlsæd First

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    Sounds sound.
     
  7. entropist

    entropist Muggle

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    I agree
     
  8. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

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    Yeah, as I understand it the goal of the mod blotter is to keep people appraised of relatively current events, not to serve as an archive of things that happened months or years ago.
     
  9. Agent

    Agent Professor DLP Supporter

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    Gonna just chime in here but Xiph's initial actions seem pretty tame. He muted the guy for 29 hours. That's pretty much it. I've gotten longer mutes for saying "idiot" on Runescape. If you can't go 29 hours without saying something then you're more than a little impatient. Plus, DLP is a site that likes to debate things. I don't think people get trashed her for their views or opinions unless they don't explain it. It seemed like enemebee just refused to provide any reason for disagreeing with Xiph.

    He then extended the mute because enembee was talking shit on Discord. Since that incident occurred on Discord, maybe Xiph should have only muted him on Discord. Of course, he didn't know how so it might have been best to ask another member of staff rather than extending his existing mute. But the way I see it, he extended the mute to balance out not muting him on Discord for his actions there.

    At this point, everything was "balanced". Enembee did an action and Xiph responded to it. I've got mixed feelings ont he "Discouraged" setting but I figure it gives Enembee a taste of what it would feel like to be banned from the Forum. It was basically Xiph saying "Hey look, this is what it feels like to be banned from here. Cut the shit." In my unwarranted opinion, Xiph could have done without the discouraged setting but whatever.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
  10. fire

    fire Unspeakable

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    Enembee abused his power by destroying the C2, and justly got banned - and yet where are the consequences for Xiph0's own abuses of his mod powers?

    The testimony of various members make it clear that Xiph0 has a history of using his mod powers to harass other users who have broken no rule and committed no offence beyond disagreeing with and/or annoying him:

    Raven says the solution is not to demote Xiph0, and instead promises structural reform to give more transparency to the moderation process; but it's not an either-or thing; you can have reform to the system such that bad apples can't thrive, but you also need to get rid of the bad apples already identified. If a police officer shoots a civilian without cause, you can give the force all the deescalation training or bodycams you want, but it's no substitute for firing the fucking guilty party.

    And on that note, TMD says he wasn't too bothered, but with respect to the bolded and highlighted part above - how on earth is this fucking acceptable? What does it say about the character about a man that he wants to single people out for discrimination just because of the demographic group they come from???

    I believe Xiph0 is not fit to be a mod. Maybe you disagree. But the brutal truth is that if he were, this incident would never have happened, this thread wouldn't exist, and the C2 wouldn't be a flaming wreck dedicated in memoriam to one man's ego and another man's sins.
     
  11. Jon

    Jon The Demon Mayor Admin DLP Supporter

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    Xiph referenced this in one of his posts in the thread. It was meant as a joke based on the assumption that TMD's irc client would auto reconnect.

    tbh that's pretty in line with irc antics. We don't do it much these days but earlier in the sites history there was a lot of dickery between staff and members with the understanding that impromptu bans for the sake of a joke weren't permanent. Xiph wasn't the only one to do this, and it no longer happens at all.

    Anecdotally, Sree once terminated Nuhuh's connection on IRC whilst I was talking to him, so I kicked him in return. in @TMD 's case I think it's unfortunate that because it was his first time on he wasn't aware of that sort of thing, thus assumed it was malicious in intent, rather than the joke that it was intended as.
     
  12. Republic

    Republic The Snow Queen ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I absolutely disagree with that. Maybe there's some factor of assholish behavior that I missed, but it looks like NMB wanted to avoid an argument that would get nowhere. Perhaps that is annoying to someone looking to have that argument/conversation, but is it mute worthy? Fuck no. This isn't what mod powers are for, imo.
     
  13. Agent

    Agent Professor DLP Supporter

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    I dunno, based on the conversation int he IRC, it seemed to me like Enembee was baiting him:

    I do suppose though that it could have just been some light banter but I think that would only be the case if Xiph and Enembee banter with each other normally anyway.

    Maybe Xiph took it too far with a 29 hour ban instead of a few hours. I can't really judge that to be honest as I don't spend as much time here or IRC as many others so not sure what would classify as a "long" mute.

    Just wanted some clarification though. Does the mute only apply on IRC or the Forums as well?
     
  14. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned

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    @Agent Zero I took that as snark and just a reference to the history of mods using their power in that way; not an actual challenge. The truth is some mods use their power to win petty arguments.

    I think one thing that needs to be examined is culture. I hear a lot of history and “DLP used to do shit like this in the past”

    It seems there is a history that was integral to the site where this sort of thing was expected.

    That doesn’t make it right. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. Mod power should only be used in that role.

    I see a real equivalent between this and metoo, locker room talk, boys will be boys, etc. while those issues are much more severe than the culture of an Internet forum...there are parallels.

    I think it’s noteworthy that Xipho has not shown humility. There is no “I could’ve handled this differently”. Just excuses. That kind of attitude leads to this sort of thing happening again in the future.

    He claims that they can’t explain the way they do things because it’s implicit and just understood by everyone. I reject that viewpoint. If you cannot clearly articulate the standards of behavior and punishment that’s a seriously issue.

    So far it seems the only standard is that mods won’t question what other mods do. So no accountability.
     
  15. s0ng2Sing

    s0ng2Sing Second Year

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    I don't really participate on this site too much. But I do want to say that the only reason that I know that DLP exists is because of NMB. It was through his works that I found this community and so while I don't really know him personally or really communicated with him beyond some reviews I do appreciate him. It sounds like there were some screw ups all around and while deleting the C2 (which he seems to have put back to its original state) was a step too far it does in some ways sound as if he was being somewhat bullied (maybe that is too strong of a term) and you usually lash out at your bullies. I hope that this isn't the end of it and that there can still be some reconciliation now that some time has passed and tempers has hopefully cooled a bit. In the end, I just want there to be someway back for him, as I really do view the actions he took as somewhat understandable considering the situation he was seemingly in.
     
  16. Sorrows

    Sorrows Queen of the Flamingos Moderator DLP Gold Supporter

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    I dunno Rep, when I see it I can see Xiph0 engaging in a good faith discussion/debate. enembee comes across as rude and more than a bit condescending with how he replied. Getting kicked for a day for being a dick is no great abuse of power and I don't think that is the problem. Sure there is history there, but this was not the result of an argument, it was an uncalled for and unwarranted bit of dickery on enembee's part.

    enembee then jumps onto discord and starts chatting shit and taunting mods for not being able to silence him (unfortunately the logs have been lost.) He gets muted again, this time for a week. I still don't think this is a particularly egregious punishment. enembee has been here a long time, he knew exactly what the result of his actions would be, he was quite literally asking for it.

    The part where things went off the rails is that instead of temp banning him from the site, Xiph0 'discouraged' him. This ment he had no idea how long it would go on for and most of the ways he had to contact mods were effected. After a week+ of his access being fucked with, with no end in site, enembee snapped and went nuclear, using the one thing of power he had over DLP.

    Should the discourage tool be used like that? I think the consensus is no, but that is a new development, clearly there have been no particular rules around its use before now. I imagine cleaner guidelines for its use will come out of this shit-show, that how things usually happen.

    Still I think this timeline changes the narrative from, enembee was rude and got banned everywhere. There are clear stages of escalation, not a sudden nuclear war as the result of one spat. Whether that was the right path of action is a different discussion.

    I still think that if, after things have cooled down, he would like to return, concede that the C2 belongs to all and apologize for throwing a tantrum, there should be a road to forgivness. He's been a jerk, but I don't think he was the only one.
     
  17. Republic

    Republic The Snow Queen ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Perhaps not great. But it's certainly something. Misuse, abuse, pick your term. And that's a perfect example of mod powers being used based on personal whims and annoyances, rather than with the health of the site/IRC in mind.

    The Discouraging option is certainly horrible and should not be used in that way, but it's not the root cause of this issue.
     
  18. Seratin

    Seratin Proudmander –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    Just catching up on this and there's a lot of talk about "right and wrong." People arguing that we should strive for some greater morality. Why?

    From what I can see nmb was being an egotistical fuck and tried some weak court intrigue shit like Littlefinger in a really awful fanfic. He got banned after every opportunity was given to avoid that outcome.

    People are also forgetting that nmb knows Xiph. He's been on this site long enough to know how to needle him.

    The whole thing seems like Nmb's ego out of control and this somehow turning into a fucking Xiph witchhunt. This is being blown grossly out of proportion.
     
  19. lopeck

    lopeck Seventh Year

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    I haven't seen anybody argue that nmb shouldn't receive some form of punishment. Just that banning him permanently, without the option of regretting his actions and potentially coming back later, is perhaps to harsh.

    What the rest of the thread is about, is the question if Xiph0 or the rules as they currently stand share the blame and how to rectify that. Given that multiple people form the staff side already pledged more transparency and features to aid in that, they seem to agree.

    There is also the question if the discourage option should ever be used as punishment for anyone not actively trying to harm the site. I doubt anyone cries over spammers, hackers and plagiarists not have good access to the site.
     
  20. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

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    Not to mention the perception that this is the standard the mod team uses really pokes a hole in the argument that if you feel a mod is abusing their power the solution is to reach out to another mod for help. If Enembee had reached out to another mod instead of having his nuclear meltdown of bridge-burning, would he have gotten an answer beyond "Shouldn't have pissed off Xiph0. Deal with it."

    Sure, there probably would be a closed-doors discussion about the situation, and maybe he would've quietly been un-discouraged. However, that's not the kind of thing anyone other than the mod/admin team would know about.

    I get that we don't want a situation where mods can be pitted against each other and start forming factions. However, it also seems improper to tell people that the solution to mod abuse is to report it to another mod, but also have a policy that mods never question or overturn another mod's decisions (at least in any way that's visible to users).
     
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