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STAR WARS III (A Death Eaters Variant) :: Concluded [Rebels Win]

Discussion in 'Little Italy' started by Zeitgeist, Apr 28, 2012.

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  1. jwlk

    jwlk Seventh Year

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    Unfortunately the set up really was heavily town based. Generally, you don't want to list all the roles, and then role reveal death. Its usually one or the other. Everyone claiming in the beginning of the game would have pretty much confirmed a town win, I think.
     
  2. Eidolonic

    Eidolonic Supreme Mugwump

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    Yeah, sorry about that Ollie.

    But if it helps, your (second) lynch pretty much won the game for town!

    It's a thing that I like to do, that some people disagree with. And makes the game unfun for some, I suppose.

    I like to attack derping (probable) town on day one, and see how everyone reacts. In an ideal world, we have more than 24 hours, and I can then switch off onto someone whose reaction I didn't like, and get even more reactions and lynch information. But... we didn't really have the time for that. So the second day acted sort of like my 'extra time in the day', heh.

    I'll still defend lynching you day one because it was an easy lynch, and therefore the kind that scum like to hop on board with, usually while being all 'sorry dude, you're probably town, but we can't afford to split votes' and such tripe.

    Just, yeah. I'll pick a different easy lynch next time to let you actually play the game a little. Unless I think you're truly scum!

    Lessee.

    Ash! I had you pegged as the smuggler from like... one of your first posts, heh. Let me find it...

    I was torn between LochNess and Schro for the Doc, though. I know I mentioned in my QT that Scrho's defensiveness felt a little more power-roley than scum, but I still decided to make the post pointing it out to see what reactions there were.

    To the scum: You guys didn't play that badly. The main mistake some of you (mostly Bill, I think?) made was not just throwing Nae'blis under the bus when it was clear that it was the superior lynch on day two. You guys would have all gained massive town cred in my eyes and possibly won the game if you'd simply gone 'Welp. So much for him. /vote' and hopped aboard the bandwagon pretty early.

    Never be afraid to sacrifice one of your number in early-mid game to secure yourself as a strong town read for late game! I think I mentioned it early, but if I was scum with someone that has a tendency to uh... make unintentional scumslips... I'd absolutely lead a lynch train down their throat day one or two, to cement myself as town, and make it less likely to be checked by the cop/probe/etc in the process!

    Votes are the currency we are held accountable for in Mafia, and I think I showed this game how you can combine reads with voting history and patterns to narrow things down pretty well! There was a fair bit of luck involved, too, and poking people for reactions, but I think Town would have won almost no matter what after we narrowed scum down to a possible grouping of ~2 in 5.

    But that 'throwing a teammate under the bus' thing I mentioned earlier would have fucked me over so hard this game. Just something to keep in mind for the future (and something I'll be watching for in the future, too. :p)

    Lessee.

    Sesc! Was fun playing with you, and you did pretty well, even if your strongest two scum reads did end up being the cop and a rebel. Which is fine! The process is what counts, and I liked the way you went about things. It'll make you a better player in the long run and whatnot.

    LochNess: You made some insightful posts, and was fun to play with you. Hopefully I can do so again in the future, maybe when you have a little more free time. (I was sort of tunneling on you as my Doc read early, and thought the lurking was intentional, but... yeah. Whoops.)

    Schrodinger: With the knowledge that you were a power role, I understand the defensiveness a bit more. But I hope you took something from this game for future ones and stuff - when someone mentions you in passing as being slightly suspicious, the best way to make that mild suspicion go away is just to be an active, participating +Town player. Questioning the suspicion just... makes you more suspicious, even if that's a little counter-intuitive. People are strange, I know.

    Vira: Good job avoiding the night kills! Would have liked a bit more active participation, but you did what you needed to do - survive and keep pumping out checks until time to reveal. Or forced to reveal or get lynched... one of those. :p

    Bill Door: Did want to apologize to you specifically if I was a bit of a dick while pressuring/lynching you. You were pretty much 100% obvious scum to me after you spent a ton of time defending Kalas, and then yourself, rather than actually /doing/ anything that looked remotely townish. I mostly just ignored you, and yeah. That's not the nicest thing to do, even if probably the most productive with how short the days are, heh.

    Kalas: Bad luck replacing into about the worst slot possible. You gave it a good try, but... I wasn't letting my best lead on a scum team get out of that day alive, sorry. :p I do look forwards to playing with you in the future (DLPHunt, and beyond). Hopefully both as town, even!

    Uhhh. I didn't really mention a bunch of people, but yeah. Nothing personal! It's just 4 am and I'm tired.

    To Zeit, thanks for running this, I suppose. But I'll probably never play a 24 hour day game again. I just... don't care for not actually having any time to do anything other than someone randomly pick a target, and then pray enough people are on to go 'ok' and cast a lynch vote. Time zones exist, and the day ending when it did was a little problematic for a lot of people, with 24 hour days. Frequently all the voting was done after some people went to sleep, etc.

    If you want to run another SW setup down the road, I might play, if days are at least 48 hours (I'd prefer 72, in all honesty, but I know some won't like that), and we remove some of the vanilla. It's pretty easy to do so without really ruining the competitive balance, I think.

    I personally like being vanilla, for obvious reasons. I just claim vanilla, don't get NK'd, and I can be super aggressive. Which...tends to either work really well, or really, really badly.

    But, most people don't, and I can understand why. You don't need every person to have a strong power, but even a weak ability that they can use as a 1-shot keeps people engaged in the game a little more.

    One other major, massive setup issue:

    You just can't have an open setup, where everyone knows all the roles prior to game start, AND have the roles/alignment reveal on death.

    I could have broken this game so badly by demanding mass role reveals at any point, and just lynching all opposing claims. I chose not to, because that's just... not fun. But it still lets people narrow stuff down far, far too much.

    It needs to either be a closed setup where roles/alignment flip on death, or an open setup where they don't. Mafia, or Hunt, basically.

    Just some feedback!

    ---------- Post automerged at 04:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:06 AM ----------

    Ninja'd by Jwlk on the open/closed thing. Bastard. And shit, that was longer than I expected.
     
  3. Zeitgeist

    Zeitgeist High Inquisitor

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    I'm inclined to disagree. The large number of Vanilla Townies is where the Scum hide in during games with Role Reveal. Case point: DE1/2, and "classic" mafia. It's a fair playing field from there: smart scum would hide among the Townies, who kill each other off. Night-Kills would be reserved for those whom the Mafia consider most likely to be Power Roles, since lynching them is difficult.

    And on the topic of 24 hour Days/Nights, I suppose the Time-Zone thing peeved you, but that's what the first mafia games were like. And trust me, 48 Hours/72 Days can be great sometimes but nasty in others, as Femmafia and a few other games might demonstrate. The advantage that Role Reveal provides for the Town is the counterbalance for the "rashness" of 24 Hours, which you must admit, brings an appreciable immediacy to the game.

    Not everybody likes long Days in which the discussion goes on and on anyway. Eidolonic, if you don't like this set-up, try tinyhunt varieties instead. They may be more for your tastes than DE/Werewolf set-ups.

    /shrug. Each man to their own.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2012
  4. jwlk

    jwlk Seventh Year

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    I was going to post the time thing, but I decided i'd be nice and leaving something for you :p
     
  5. Klackerz

    Klackerz Bridgeburner

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    This will not work mainly because there are 7 rebels. So the 4 scum could claim themselves as rebels and then kill the power roles one by one.

    Edit: Ninaja'd by Fiat.
     
  6. Eidolonic

    Eidolonic Supreme Mugwump

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    Uhh. So 11 people claiming Rebel still breaks the game? Power roles don't really matter that much. That means you have 4 confirmed scum in an 11 player batch. Mechanically you don't know who they are, but you can narrow them down super fast with reads and voting history.

    That's not even getting into the fact that the Cop can reveal day one with no drawback, really. Doc and Watcher both target the cop, and roleblocker can't block him or watcher knows who one of the scum is.

    You just... really don't want open setup + role flip on death. It's bad.
     
  7. Eidolonic

    Eidolonic Supreme Mugwump

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    People put far, far, far too much emphasis on roles. It's a mistake scum made in this game, I think. If I had to guess, Riley and Aekiel were both killed because they were suspected to be power roles, and maybe Custer as a suspected Doc, as well. Killing players is almost always going to be better than killing roles, and losing power roles to greatly narrow down who the scum can be hiding is well worth it, too.
     
  8. jwlk

    jwlk Seventh Year

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    I understand where you are coming from, but you're wrong.

    Say everyone claimed, and all scum claimed rebel's. There would be what, 11 rebels? You can't kill the cop N1, so there would be an innocent/guilty there. Also, the knight can watch the doctor/cop in case they role block him. 10 rebels, and you can pretty much afford to mislynch... 3 times without hitting a scum. And at that point it becomes easy. Its just mini mafia, it'd be ridiculously easy, and game breaking.
     
  9. Zeitgeist

    Zeitgeist High Inquisitor

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    Once again, Death Eaters and mafia games played irl (and even Werewolf) are all Open, with role-reveal. And it works because you have Vanilla Townies in which the Mafia would hide. You'd be surprised by how most people are lazy and/or clueless and/or don't do all that analysis as you, Eidolonic.

    Not everybody is an Irene.

    Really, you didn't like this set-up, why did you even bother signing-up?
     
  10. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    :p

    I like myself pretty well as is already. And regarding Vira and Republic21: I maintain that everything I pointed out was valid. Not even the switch to Aziraphale changed things: I nominate them combined for the Randomly Witchiest Town Ever Award (Vira gets the Purposefully one). Dunno what you were playing there, guys :s
     
  11. Zeitgeist

    Zeitgeist High Inquisitor

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    The Emperor's Hand/Godfather receives the Cop's results for a reason: so he can counteract the Cop. And the roleblocker exists for a reason.

    Perhaps I should have included more Vanillas like Merrill did, but I didn't hear you complaining during DE2, jwlk. Honestly, I'm not in the mood to discuss the merits of tinyhunt versus DeathEaters. They are two different set-ups, and two different game styles. Apples and oranges. You have to deal with it.

    Why did you express interest in the game in the first place? =/
     
  12. jwlk

    jwlk Seventh Year

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    Tbh, while Eido obviously did a fantastic job, it shouldn't have been that easy :p. It would take something pretty extensive to happen for the town to lose, and thats not really fair to the mafia. Not at all.

    He's giving you tips to improve the game, its not that he didn't like the set-up, its that it was flawed.
     
  13. Zeitgeist

    Zeitgeist High Inquisitor

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    I'll post Awards soon. Vira will get her just desserts, Sesc.

    @jwlk:

    And lol, I didn't want to critique the Scum but fine, here it is:

    The scum a) failed to utilise the Emperor's Hand visions. Jeram didn't even tell his teammates about whom the Probe investigated until Night 3 or something? Granted, Jeram asked me once about whether he can tell his teammates (a question I accidentally overlooked), but it'd be common sense that he can divulge that information to his teammates.

    Consequently, the vanilla Imperialists had no real close about who the Probe was until it was much too late. The fact that the Probe investigated Ashaya N1 would be narrowed their pool down substantially.

    b) Eidolonic was special. Seriously, none of the other players posted more than he did in his QT. Aekiel didn't even post to confirm in his QT, and the vanilla Townies, for the most part, didn't really go into the analysis he performed. Hell, same with many of the Power Roles. Eidolonic worked his butt off. I strongly believe that the Town's victory is because Eid is the exception, not the rule.

    This fact will become far more obvious once you read the QTs.

    c) I'm responding to the criticism, jwlk, but I'm honestly confounded on why you're speaking up now, compared to DE2. And SW1 is the perfect counterpart to this game.

    That game, also featuring Vira, illustrates how the Town can go so very wrong. Same with Death Eaters 1.

    Look, I don't want to have this debate now. If you insist on continuing this debate, which in my opinion is more of a matter of personal taste (DE-style vs Tinyhunt-style), PM me. But don't post it here.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2012
  14. Eidolonic

    Eidolonic Supreme Mugwump

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    Well. I didn't actually look at the setup. Or day length. Or anything, heh. Just saw mafia and figured 'why not'.

    Well. The main thing is that there's 4 scum in an 11 player grouping, with mass claim. A more common ratio in heavy vanilla games is 2 scum per 11 players, roughly, if they're all vanilla.

    If you just hide what the roles are that are available, it makes mass claiming pointless and unproductive, while not really... detracting from the game in any way.

    But honestly, mass claiming is horrible and unfun, and that's why I didn't do it. I almost did at one point later in the game when everything was narrowed down, to see if we had any power roles hiding in the group I figured had to be scum, but it sort of resolved itself on its own with Vira claiming.

    But hey. You asked for feedback, and I was just trying to give it. If you don't want it, don't ask, I guess?

    I still had fun playing, and thanks for hosting. Doesn't mean there aren't things that can't be improved upon in the future.
     
  15. jwlk

    jwlk Seventh Year

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    lynch both, then. If he claims cop. And the knight can see who is role blocked, if he targets them. I don't think more vanillas is the answer. Just, not having an open set up with role reveals is a pretty good place to start.

    Edit: Also, tbh I wasn't thinking much in DE2 :p.

    ---------- Post automerged at 01:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 AM ----------

    And yah, while mass claims aren't fun, its still a thing that can happen, and why have it and ruin a game you worked hard on when you can just not have it, and save the trouble?
     
  16. Eidolonic

    Eidolonic Supreme Mugwump

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    A classic mafia setup is fine, really. DE, Werewolf, etc. Just if there's going to be a mix of power roles and vanillas, hiding the setup is common to prevent mass claim from breaking the game. That's the only real point I was trying to make. That it turns it into an extremely town-sided thing mechanically.

    But I'll just leave it at that, I suppose. Thanks again for hosting.
     
  17. Zeitgeist

    Zeitgeist High Inquisitor

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    Mass-claiming is extremely difficult to pull off in the early game when you have a bulk of Vanillas, who are essentially the same role but cannot confirm or deny it without death, especially since there are more than two Vanillas. Even KaiDASH, who introduced the tinyhunt format to DLP and is its greatest proponent, would concede that fact.

    Both of you grossly overestimate the ability of people to cooperate and trust each other to pull off something as ambitious and large as a mass-claim. Refer to DE1 and SW1. And yes, I asked for criticism, but I was asking for something more specific to SW3, rather than something more about the game genre (Role-Reveal, Open Set-Up) itself. Since this debate is more of a question of personal taste and what your idea of mafia is, feel free to continue it with me in PM.

    But I'd like to keep this thread more for the game itself than about the game genre. This is the last time I'll be talking about this topic in this thread, so please drop the subject and continue it in PM, if you absolutely must.
     
  18. jwlk

    jwlk Seventh Year

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    Reason I never said anything before was that I never thought about it.

    If you want to PM me, I can explain to you in example the difference between the "WH" type of games, and the "mafia" type of games, and how they're different, and why what we're suggesting isn't more of a "hunt" thing and more of a "mafia" thing.
     
  19. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    I want to announce, by the way, that I have stopped counting how many games I have played. Not one of them drew a mafia role for me, not ever. I give up. Sesc just cannot into Scum. It's unpossible. Think of me as 100% townfirmed from the get go, in all future games to come.
     
  20. jwlk

    jwlk Seventh Year

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    On the bright side, if you're ever scum it will probably be painfully obvious! :D
     
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