I like the idea, really, I do.

But, as stated, it's awkward. Maybe, if you slowly introduced the idea before actually doing this (holding off on this chapter for a couple chapters); having several scenes where Dumbledore contemplates giving a demon Lily's heart, it would be more believable. Especially if the said spell/ritual took time to complete, or a greater sacrifice than mere blindness (what Dumbledore has dome here is very significant, something so important that it feels dumb to have it so early in the story. If you intend Harry/Meciel, then have them truly fall in love (or Meciel trying to love him anyway, but failing despite her struggles) and introduce this idea as a means for her to finally love him, at the cost of Dumbledore's life [which is a much better price for such a powerful alteration, I think]).

As it stands, I think this scene is wrong though. It doesn't feel like the Denarian Knight. It feels like a cheap duece ex machina to get some Harry/Meciel romance going.

Personally, I think Dumbledore should go up and invoke Meciel's avatar in some special spell. Have him interrogate her, and ask her if she truly loves Harry. It's not like he can know for sure whether she does or doesn't. This is actually what I anticipated when I first started reading this "new" chapter 15.

 

Ok. The new version is better I suppose but I am still not a fan of it. After thinking about it a little I shall try to explain further what I dislike about this:

1.Dumbledore's awesome supahpowah!

I did not like the way the spell was handled. Now I admit that its better for Dumbledores spell to affect only the coin or Harry or whatever instead of the true Meciel herself which was ridicilous but it still has problems. Earlier with the curse on Vesper, you mentioned how the curse was incredible piece of work and totally unique among the fallen. And yet here Dumbledore can just decide totally out of the blue to put such a curse and succeed despite your earlier mentions of how the coins are almost immune to magic.

I know you tried to justify it by saying that the spell affected Harry and Meciel is only affected because she inhabits his body. But if Meciel was so affected by her host then no spell would have been necessary because Harry IS human and already has a human heart capable of feeling love.

This simply makes Dumbledore far too powerfull in my view. If he can alter divine things such as the coin then why does he really need Harry? Why not just alter Voldemort instead and turn him into a good man or some such nonsense. I simply think that you are making Dumbledore far too powerfull here. A great man he may be, but he should simply be a man, not a god. Lily too is in my view is boosted a bit too much. I simply dont believe that a remnant of her (or even the real deal) should be able to change Meciel in any way. Just feels as though you are artifically boosting both Lily and Dumbledore and doing it at Meciels expense by wrecking her character.

The way the spell is described is also a bit confusing and unclear. If Dumbledore can draw on some alternate power from Hogwarts (or whatever?) then why has he not used it against Voldemort. Just did not seem credible.

2.Lack of free will.

I am not certain if I totally buy the idea that only humans have free will and the ability to make a choice for themselves. First of all, it diminishes all other creatures in the HP universe. I don't like the idea that humans are somehow so super-special while centaurs,house elves and so on are all incapable of making choices for themselves. It sort of justifies the view of people like Umbridge who view non-humans as inferior and I don't really like that.

Second I cannot help but wonder, if god created archangels like Meciel in such a way that they don't have free will, that they are just robots incapable of changing their nature or choosing for themselves, then how is it that Meciel could fall in the first place? I mean to fall she had to make a CHOICE to defy God did she not? That implies that back then atleast she had free will and the capability to freely decide the path she wanted in life. Unless ofcourse god created her in such a way that she was intended to fall from the very beginning which seems totally pathetic.

You could argue I suppose that god removed her ability to make such choices after her fall but that does not really work either. In the Dresden universe, God is generally shown to be benevolent and kind. His angels and swords all speak of a good entity. The idea that he would remove all ability of the fallen to feel regret and remorse and the ability to seek redemption if they so desired just fails.

3.Weak and pathetic Meciel

This sort of connects with the above lack of free will. I don't like the fact that Meciel which earlier has been shown to be such a vibrant,powerfull and cool character has been so greatly reduced and brought low here. Like I said in my earlier comment, it was great when we could imagine that despite her evil, Meciel did care about Harry. But now you have wrecked all that. If I were to reread Renegade I would now know that all those multitude of scenes where Meciel is shown to feel fondness for Harry are just not true. All the times when she is shown to "fill Harry with her warmth" are now just meaningless lies. That, for me atleast makes Meciels character far less likable or interesting and far more one-dimensional.

I also hate the fact that the great archangel Meciel needs a human to offer her the ability to seek redemption or feel true emotion. Not to mention the fact that any redemption she is now shown to have is apparently false since she can only feel such things so long as she remains in Harry. You have sort of divided Meciel in two now. The true Meciel that floats in the outside and the Meciel in Harry. Even if Meciel becomes kinder and more redemeed, it will constantly be in our minds that it was only because of Dumbledore's spell and that if Meciel were to ever leave Harry and the influence of the spell then she would instantly lose her ability to seek redemption and revert, which makes any character development of Meciel meaningless now.

I have no problems with Meciel being redemeed. But I think if the redemption is of any real worth then it should come from her and her alone. Having Dumbledore force it down her throat cheapens her and the idea of redemption both. It is a very weak way to try to make Meciel a better being and I don't much care for it.


Well. I think I have said enough. My ultimate view is that this was a very poor chapter and a poor direction for the story to go to. As an omake Nuhuh's segment might have been interesting but as actual canon its not. Further more, the change in the style of writing is somewhat jarring here. Though that is less of a problem to me than the actual content. Sorry Nuhuh, no offense intended.

 

*jumps in*

Okay, a couple of things first.

1. I never finished Denarian Renegade (sorry Shez). I stopped around chapter 19 or so; Shezza updated too fast for me to keep up. Therefore I can't tell if this chapter is coming out of the blue or not -- after discussion with nuhuh, apparently, it does.

2. I just beta'ed a good part of the omake, and this without knowing about the controversy. So I guess I was relatively unbiased, and as such, I thought it was drop-dead gorgeous. Dumbledore's characterisation in particular is the best I've ever read (too much sighing in the end, but otherwise, it's just so fucking perfect), and there's a poetic touch about a mother's love being able to shield her son from the worst hellspawns that touches me (might be the estrogens though).

As far as the quality of the omake is concerned, I don't think there's much of a debate anyway. Now, I understand why some of Shezza's fanbase would twitch at the idea of a chapter that wouldn't be written by him. I also understand why they wouldn't like that he would give up the plot he thought of, and pick up a plot-twist someone else came up with instead. However, if he thinks that plot-twist is better than whatever he came up with, hey -- it's his story, I think he's better qualified than any of you to make that decision. He might want to adjust a few of his previous chapters to make it fit in better with the plot, though.

Now that's out of the way -- Meciel.

No, Meciel is not able of selfless love. Meciel is not human. She's a Fallen Angel, and a Temptress. It's her job to make Harry think she loves him, in order to secure him as a host by exploiting his weaknesses. Her own weakness is that she needs a host, and she wants that host to be powerful. It's oddly naive to think she would teach him all that out of love for him -- she doesn't give a damn. She'd just as well dump him for a more powerful wizard; Dumbledore, for instance. Her goal is to survive. If my memory serves, she wouldn't have said no in the beginning if Harry had agreed to let her take complete control.

To those who've read the Dresden Files -- Lash isn't Lasciel. Dresden was never in contact with the Fallen Angel, but with a shadow of her personality whose job was to lure him into taking up the coin. This shadow was shaped up by his own subconscious, his own soul, one might say; thus it grew its own personality after a while, based off Dresden's own selflessness. Harry, on the other hand, is in contact with the real deal: the thousands-years old demon, who isn't going to be altered by one child host.

About the plot-twist in itself.

Lily being able to fight Meciel's influence... Why not? Her lingering protection was already strong enough to deflect the most powerful, most lethal curse known to the Wizarding World. In the Judeo-Christian tradition (to which Fallen Angels more or less belong) love can defeat death; it can also defeat demons, since it's the one thing they can't understand. Meciel was able to have such a strong hold on Harry because he was unloved; and the first thing she did was neutralise Lily's protection, probably because she knew it was a danger to her. She knew enough to try and erase completely the memory of her from Harry's mind.

So, on the contrary, Lily's love being able to counter Meciel's influence makes perfect sense. As for the consequences... Well, it depends on Shezza, I guess. It would make sense to have Lily weaken the demon, possibly ban it from Harry's mind. Ultimately, I don't think Meciel can be permanently changed. But while she's inside Harry's mind, her thoughts and motives altered by Lily's presence, who knows how she will behave.

Strange, I didn't see it as such at all. Much more could happen than a cheap Harry/Meciel romance after Dumbledore pulled such a trick. Also, calling the scene a "deus ex machina" isn't quite accurate here; it rather fits with Dumbledore's personality. That said, I see what you mean.


Last,

That was spectacularly useless and quite insulting for nuhuh. If I remember correctly, he didn't exactly force his omake down Shezza's throat -- nor did he try to make Shezza's story remotely like his own. Lily's love is central to the HP fandom, it's not because it is used in two stories that one should go all 'OMG! SAEM PLOT-TWIST!'

-_-

 

Note: Well, fuck me with a chainsaw. Another version was posted while I was doing this. While the urge to kill is overwhelming, I think I'll go with my original plan and go to bed. I'll take a crack at the other version later. ZZzzzzz...

I'd get less comfortable by removing 'comfortable and'.

Does he seek them in himself, or others? If he's primarily referring to himself (he is being introspective here, after all) I'd change 'sought out' to 'strove for'.

If both, perhaps 'Albus strove for and sought out in others.' or something... that's a bit wordy for a random thought. Shit, I dunno. I've had six hours of sleep since I got up on Saturday. :?

It's nitpicky, but moving 'over the years' to just after 'done his best' would likely make it clearer that 'over the years' refers to 'done his best' and not 'sins'. ie: Do we mean "He had done his best over the years." vs "Atone for the sins which he has committed over the years."

I'm fairly certain we all know which is meant without further modifying the sentence and I blame my egregious over-analyzing of this sentence on the aforementioned lack of sleep.

Drop the 'in'. Beyond that, if he's being torn between two things, what is the second thing? Only 'his responsibility to see the world as peaceful as possible' is listed, so what's the other thing? Without it, the sentence isn't a sentence.

I'd swap the 'a' for a 'the'. That way it sounds less like he can only defeat a newly reborn Voldemort and more like he can defeat Voldemort, who happens to be newly reborn at this point. Or at least that's what the voices tell me.

This entire passage doesn't make sense to me.
As is, it seems to be saying that the things which caused his regret (like Arianna's death) were all for nothing because he has Fawkes.
That can't be right.
Fixing the odd disagreement that 'all for not with the presence of [fawkes]' sets up, we get: 'He had several regrets in his life, Arianna’s death, his reckless youth and his inability to have a family, but they were all for naught without the presence of his faery companion.'
This doesn't make much more sense than it did before.
Now he seems to be implying that his sister's death, his reckless youth, etc. were somehow necessary in order to defeat Grindelwald but that without Fawkes, they wouldn't have mattered. Huh? Something just isn't right here but I'm not sure where to point the finger. Obviously he is saying that without Fawkes, he couldn't have beaten Grindelwald, but that still leaves the opening sentences implying that the other things were somehow sacrifices that had to happen but would have been pointless if he'd lost the fight.

Maybe I'm just missing the point.
Maybe I've eaten too many honey mustard & onion pretzel chunks.
All I know is that, either way, reading this passage gave me tunnel vision, dry mouth, restless leg syndrome and brutal menstrual cramps and I don't even have a uterus!

'a' should really be 'the' while 'and had always' is possibly me nitpicking again.

Hogwarts needs to be possessive here. You are holding an apostrophe hostage and we demand its return.

'Professors' it's supposed to be plural, not possessive. So that's where you've been hiding the apostrophe!

Which coincided with his last bowel movement but that's beside the point. Delete the 'he' for 'Albus could' or 'Albus himself could'.

'compiled'

'approximate to'

There's a word missing here, possibly 'Albus recognized a fae word'?

[quote]“My concern is that although he will always place her first, I do not believe that she would do the same for him?”[/quote]Firstly, I'd really put a comma between 'that' and 'although'. Secondly, Albus is making a statement here, isn't he? The question mark at the end weakens the strength of his statement considerably (or is he actually doubting what he says here).

Wouldn't be the first time they lied for curry flavour, either. Temptresses gotta eat too.

'But more than just the body could die'

At the very least, some commas would improve the readability of this sentence.
'If the small, admittedly hard-to-find, decent part of Harry died under the Hellfire'
Or... 'If the decent part of Harry, though small admittedly hard-to-find, died under the Hellfire'

The 'as' is extraneous. Though you could do 'strive so as to not fail'

I'd add an 'it to' between 'owed' and 'them'.

Stone flagstones; as opposed to those marvelous vinyl flagstones with the faux stone finish that the Weasleys just bought for five galleons a roll and installed in their kitchen?

'a place of storage' / 'a place for storage' The Place of Storing is just what the house elves call it...

The magic of commas... Unfortunately commas were declared 'Dark' in 1907 and thus are rarely used today.

'With a mere thought, the heavy doors of the ward shut behind him, the seams between them sealing up so that, where once their was a pair of doors, there now stood a wooden wall.'

'For the briefest of moments, a dull light shone on every surface in the ward, revealing patterns and runes;'

'in the ward, barefoot, with' or 'stood, barefoot, in the ward'

'the garb'

Wut? Okay, the bit before the first comma could be rearranged to improve readability... 'He walked in a curving path towards the occupied single bed in the middle of the floor,'
...but after that things get dense.

'before the path of his bare feet': Okay, is this effect really taking place in front of him, or rather is it occurring in his wake as he passes or is it radiating all around him at once?

'and on the heels of the whispers from his mouth': on the heels, meaning 'directly after'... Cute, but since we're already talking about the floor and feet and walking, this heels business makes an already circuitous and confusing sentence even more so. Clarity would be better served, perhaps, by speaking plainly here. If the rest of the sentence could, perhaps, be clarified then the inclusion of the 'heels' here might not be so confusing.

'words in ripples heaved from the floor and rushed out in waves of stone noiselessly.': I'm assuming these words are actually etched into the stone, because at this point, it's somewhat unclear.
This section gives one the vague impression that something pretty damned mystical is going on but the sentences aren't quite making sense, without having to be read and reread. This passage would make a lot more sense if it were broken up by commas and, in some instances, split into separate sentences, rather than unwieldy conglomerations that threaten to become run-ons.

I'll just drop my rough and quite possibly completely fucked up translation in here, to see if I'm getting this.

'He walked in a curving path towards the occupied single bed in the middle of the floor. In the wake of his bare feet, and directly on the heels of the whispers from his mouth, writing, in ripples, heaved along the floor and rushed noiselessly outwards in waves of stone.'

Swapping 'words' for 'writing' makes it clearer that we're talking about words written on the stone, rather than voices or something relating to the spoken incantations.

Regardless of the accuracy of my interpretation, you need a comma between 'stone' and 'noiselessly' at the least.

Obviously one must find a happy medium between plainly conveying what's happening and giving an appropriately arcane and mystical description. This particular interpretation, in addition to possibly being way off the fucking mark, also tends towards the plain but more easily understood category. Just be careful that the events you want to describe (along with sentence structure) aren't getting lost in baroque description. Making absolutely sure that your sentence structure and grammar are correct helps immeasurably. Breaking those tortuous, meandering streams of words up with commas really helps.

This is another place where comprehension of the sentence could be aided by improving the sentence structure (through better punctuation and word choices). Also, while it is easy to understand what is meant by 'as long as the age of the castle', it doesn't make grammatical sense.

'Ten times he circuited the walls, while languages ancient and forgotten crested on the floor in confusing, twisting scripts, as if they had been embossed on the stone at the very inception of the castle.'

'Around his feet, with the soft falling and rising tone of his whispered bewitchment, the words too sank and rose.' -or- 'Around his feet, the words too sank and rose, with the soft falling and rising tone of his whispered bewitchment.'

Commas!
'They sped away, changing the landscape with the end of each spell. Soon he stood by the side of the boy who was lying on the singular bed in a sea of carved and raised magic, set in stone.'

'things as he'

That orange section isn't quite right, so I'm just going to throw something out there...

'With closed eyes, he turned his head this way and that in a slow measured manner, searching for that one impression that he wanted; that one moment of unparalleled happiness that had imprinted itself in the 'memory' of this ward.'

'The plight of his charge, and through him the fate of his people, never rested in such a unique balance, fraught with forces so volatile that they had never been seen before.'

I'd replace 'But' with 'Still,' here. The rest isn't quite so clear. Does 'of his making' mean he created the spell, or that he is the one casting it, currently? Because the latter is painfully obvious already. The rest of the sentence sounds... I'm not sure I have quite the right words for it.

'Still, he was prepared to cast these magicks of his own making. Magicks that would forever remain secret, never to be made known to the world.'

Wow, break it up. If you can't say that whole stretch in the middle in one breath without sounding like a robot, add some friggin' commas.

'These questions had plagued him, but now at the edge of it all, he steeled his heart as he had many times in the last two wars, when he had chosen to bleed for his world; when he had chosen others to sacrifice along himself.'

'he muttered, opening his eyes, which so many knew to twinkle blue in indulgent amusement, but in this instance there were no eyes behind the lids.'

'Behind and around him the hidden marks on the ceiling opened, glowing with a bronze light, and began spinning like gears and cogs in a machine.'

'The frozen, raised scripts'

'With his magical, but for the moment blind, eyes he looked at the boy lying in the bed.'

'The lightning scar on his forehead sat there, looking like an innocuous curiosity.'

'The runes above the bed shone and a curtain of bronze light fell straight down, crashing onto the young body of Harry Potter.'

'From within it, a startled woman with expressive silver eyes and dark silky hair stepped out, wearing a flowing, lily white dress from a time past many years.'

'Albus Dumbledore smiled, seeing her presence in his mind. Seldom had such an unworldly beauty stood in his way.'

'Meciel scoffed and threw her head, taking a step towards Albus, letting her pale feet show below the hem of her ancient robes.'

'eyeless'

'all that and more'

'or, perhaps more accurately, a surety'

'the healing of its rivers? I have known them, and you can know them through me.'

'away, to her; singularly to her.'

'The golden shimmer of the falling magical light on her dark hair, her eyes, hooded and enchanting, whispered promises of their own besides the one she spoke with her tongue.'

You tend to start producing meandering sentence fragments whenever you get poetic with your descriptions. Keep an eye on it.

'Hell’s seduction, which coloured her words'

Wut?

That last sentence is a fragment. 'and spirit; two words demanding he take her as his saviour.'

'afraid of how easily'

'his failings'???

'Albus intoned harshly, invoking the unnatural magic, and she fell against the moving barriers he had formed.'

'Serene and calm, she stood'

'We both that know what stopped you was not simply that word.'

'She gave a beatific smile and Albus shuddered.' Time to toss in a female pronoun and nix a comma.

'Albus answered with half a mind, the rest concentrating'

'the divine powers he had employed in separating her from Harry.'

'Don’t fail your son, Lily, expel this usurper!'

Assuming that's referring to Meciel, shouldn't 'its' be 'her'?

'the hospital bed, putting'

'Albus stared at Lily Potter’s chained, naked form, stunned.' -or- 'Stunned, Albus stared at Lily Potter’s chained, naked form.' -or- 'Albus, stunned, stared at Lily Potter’s chained, naked form.'

'And I am his lover. I am his everything'

'Expel her, Lily, claim your son! wake up!'

I'd drop the 'such'.

The 'in front of his eyes' falls flat without something like 'Right in front of his eyes' -or- 'Before his very eyes'

For the sake of consistency, shouldn't that be [limey]focussed[/limey]?

'in her hands, creeping down her bared arms to her body so she was clothed only in flame.'

'Now, Lily!'

'The image of the twenty year old woman stood and, with stumbling steps, lunged into the fiery nebula formed by Meciel.'

'within Meciel's taller form'

'Meciel clutched her breast', lest we forget which 'she' we are talking about at this juncture.

'You are a fallen with a heart and now, with Lily’s hold on you, you cannot harm Harry.'

'Meciel flew from the bed, her bonewyrm wings appearing; propelling her towards Albus.'

'but was pulled back, violently, into Harry’s body' -or- 'but was violently pulled back into Harry’s body'

Try 'immemorial'

'Meciel knew more than revenge and the hellish fury'

My god, I'm beat. I fell asleep partway through this, so I haven't much of a clue what I wrote. Hopefully some of this mumbo jumbo was helpful; good luck with that... Hopefully I haven't fucked up too much. I'm going to bed. :|

 

Its not bad writing as such. I just don't think it fits well in the existing story. Or atleast the view of the story that I had before this.

Maybe you are right and this is what Shezza thinks when he considers Meciel. I suppose we all have ways of seeing things and trying to create mental images of the characters we read about. In my mind I have a view of Meciel thats more complex and perhaps you are right and thats not how Shezza intended it. You speak of Meciel teaching and caring for Harry only to secure a powerfull host and that the idea that she truly cares for him is naive.

I wonder why it cannot be both? Why cannot Meciel teach Harry for selfish reasons while still caring about him to some degree? Why cannot she feel emotion for Harry while simultaneously being concerned about having a powerfull host. Thats the image I had in my mind I guess. A complex character that could not be summed up by just calling her an "evil temptress".

I suppose after considering your words its possible that the reason I don't like this chapter is because that complex view has now been shattered and she has been turned into the sort of mindless evil incapable of feeling positive emotion thats in every story everywhere. Hardly original and somewhat disappointing to me.

I think it was more like million-years old or something? And while she may not be altered by one child host she can apparently be altered by an old man and a remnant spirit. Or merely temporarily supressed as it may be since apparently the real Meciel wont be altered. (which means that from now on, the Meciel we read about wont be the real deal I guess?)

 

Warlocke~

I was having Tinn beta that piece for mechanics and such. Usually when I write I let it flow, and then go back and fix structure of sentences and such.

Your point about the meat of the scene getting lost in baroque style is well taken. The purpose there was to imbue it with a sense of mystery, not confusion.

Most of your edits will have been taken care of by Tinn I am sure.

Lastly:

There are such things as marble flagstones. But vinyl is quite original.

Datakim~

On the subject of Meciel's characterization. She loses none of her complexity by establishing her limits as a fallen angel in the dresden universe. In fact it is a much more interesting character when you have to understand that her motivations are other than a human's and she can give the illusion of being a human but underneath is an ancient evil.

Furthermore a character of so much knowledge, ability to deceive, manipulate is hardly a 'mindless evil' that you seem to think she has become after this sequence. A fallen angel in this series and the one it is based on has never been shown as a destructive automaton of some sort. They are in fact complex, different, with their individual agendas and stories. But the fact remains that they are incapable of love.

Even in Denarian Renegade and later in Knight when Harry is on the subject of how he loves her, he says that he knows that she does not love him back in the same way. So this inability should hardly be a shock when that has been established before.

All this twist or whatever you want to call it does is give her that ability, to love as a human. It means now that not only she can influence Harry, but how he treats her will influence her too.

 

I agree with many of the opinions already shared here. Great scene, really interesting idea. I think the story would be better served if you Shezza rewrote at least the start of this scene because right now it's odd. I know it's one end scene and start of another, but this just feels like one end scene and the start of a new author. Which detracts from the story as a whole.

As for the plotwise, I think you shouldn't jump too far ahead of yourself. nuhuh's written a great omake/scene here. But you need to ignore the quality of the writing for a moment and look at how this would affect the story. It's a pretty significant change in the second most important character in the storyline.

Personally, I'm on the side that this seems kind of a cop out. And it weakens the dilemma of Meciel. I think it'd be far more interesting if Lily's "protection" isn't some chained play-thing Meciel controls but a weapon that even Lily's "over-protective" spirit will happily and extremely forcefully defend. Can you see Albus' reaction when it's Lily that repels him in protection of Harry? Or in this case, in protection of Meciel? If a mother's desire for the best for her son is to actively include a temptress/demon? It's not "love" but saving and violently protecting Harry. Something Lily and Meciel would happily agree on.

Meciel I think works best without a clear "redemption" going on. We've seen she does care for Harry but it's fun knowing the possibility of her corrupting and taking over Harry is out there. And perhaps only if that ever happened would Meciel and Lily's protection combat. I mean what if it was partially Lily's protection that drew Meciel to Harry? That's the sort of truth I'd love to see Albus to reach from this.

 

And only evil. Nothing more. I suppose I might have said it poorly when I called her mindless but she is most certainly more one dimensional and weaker for that in my _opinion_. I suppose in the Dresden universe fallen angels might not have free will but there the fallen are not main characters either. Personally I think this kind of "only humans have free will" thing does not fit in the HP universe anymore than soulgazes do (and Shezza dumped those).

I suppose I don't really need Meciel to be passionately in love with Harry but the idea that she is supposedly totally incapable of anykind of caring sucks a bit. It just suddenly turns Harry from an "equal or slightly inferior" partner to little more than Meciels bitch that she has completely manipulated from the very beginning. And now Meciel has become Dumbledores/Lilys bitch. Ok maybe I exaggerate a bit there but I am sure you get my meaning. Both Harry and Meciel are diminished.

Except it does not. Unlike what we might have thought before, Harry has never influenced Meciel in the slighest and he will not in the future. Why? Because for all intents and purposes its not really Meciel anymore.

a)Her character has been altered on a fundamental level from the way it was before. And not by slow development where she freely changes her mind and the way she views Harry and the world due to experience and the events around her, but rather by simply saying "MAGIC!" and then she is someone else. Like I implied earlier. Its not Meciel anymore. Its Mecilily. Its a weak cop-out for a redemption that could have been so much more powerfull.

b)Its made clear that the change only affects Harry so if Meciel were to leave Harry she would instantly return to her "incapable to love" version of herself. If she would permanently be changed by simply hanging around in Harry then it becomes very hard to believe that she would not instantly leave. I mean who wants to have her very mind altered by an outside interference against her will. Anyone would seek to avoid that kind of brainwashing even if they were not evil. If you were in an environment where you knew that somekind of outside magic would alter you into a completely and utterly different person and you had a door out of there. Would you really stay even knowing that the person you are now would essentially die.

So either way. We have Meciel where any change would not be permanent to the "true Meciel" making any kind of character development pointless. Or we have a weak pathetic Meciel who would essentially freely commit personality-suicide for no real reason.

I see that Nonjon has posted some of what I am trying to say more eloquently while I was trying to clumsily explain my thoughts. His idea of Lily actually protecting Meciel from Dumbledore would have been in my view infinitely better because that way Meciel would still be the same Meciel we have come to know and care about. And Lily protecting her would have suggested that perhaps Meciel can love after all without actually saying it. Leaving the reader wondering.

And if its absolutely critical that Meciel cannot originally feel love then maybe she could somehow have tried to learn the ability from Lily WILLINGLY or something. Instead we have Dumbledore brainwashing her despite the fact that Dumbledore is supposed to be a mere infant in both age and power in comparison. This would still be kind of weak but atleast Meciel would come off better if she embraces Lily because she wants to feel love and chooses to try and change herself willingly and not because she is being forcibly altered by Dumbledore(or maybe she already did?). This way I could maybe have accepted a permanent change to the real Meciel too. Just the idea of Dumbledore forcibly altering who and what Meciel is feels so wrong.

Sigh. I think I have said enough here. For what its worth. Shezza has done something right to make me care so much about a fictional character and get so "upset" over her character assasination.

 

I completely agree with Datakim.

Moreover, Shezza mentioned that the idea of a dark wizard like Harry and a light like Dumbledore working together was cool and I agreed with that. I was actually very looking to Harry working with Order. Now we have all building Harry-Dumbledore as ally's relationship completely ruined. Meciel would poison Harry against Dumbledore. Nor would we see a Harry respecting Dumbledore anymore. Any attempts of cooperation or working together between them would be tainted from now on and would be feeling particulary fake and bitter.

2/5 from me for this chapter.

 

Have a little faith in Shezza, he has good things planned for this. I promise you Meciel is in no way diminished, and I simply laughed at the character assassination comment. There is a lot more of Meciel to come, the way Shezza and I saw it, this will make her only more vicious. The comments Nonjon made regarding how he would see the lily aspect affecting the story are very close, just probably executed differently.

Regardless, this is Shezza's story, I didn't ask him to include this in his storyline, he chose to do that, and if you see his past comments in his threads he doesn't easily get swayed into doing something. He listens to comments and does what he wants with his story. So I would give him a little credit and chance to show how he is going to absorb this in what he has planned for Meciel.

There is enough of a split in the reviews here, which is understandable. The part I wrote was meant as an omake, an out take, something generally independent of the story line. Some people loved it, others hated it. In the end its up to Shezza.

But I promise you Meciel hasn't been de fanged in anyway, I would say more on that but that would be spoiling.

 

Another problem other than what has been already stated: Dumbledore is indeed a powerful wizard, but he is a powerful wand-wizard. Like Harry, I always pictured him as lacking in skill in "Dresden Magic" though, also like Harry, not without some marginal skill in it.

This spell, though within his power as a wand-wizard, is not a wand-wizard spell, and so he should not be able to do it.

On Meciel: de-fanged or not, she's still no longer Meciel. For me, the greatest attraction this story had was the ambiguity of Meciel's character. Was she using Harry, or had she come to care for him - maybe in future even love him? There are times in the story when Harry says he knows she is using him - supporting the first view - but there are also times when he feels great affection from her through their link.

So it was ambiguous. This scene removed that ambiguity. Since that was the driving force of the story for me, this is the climax of the story - but it's a premature one: not only is there much of the story left to be told, but it came out of nowhere.

Don't get me wrong, it's well written and a great omake, but that's what it should stay IMO. A bit like the Amanda omake that Shezza decided to make canon. It was a good scene, but in making it canon he has revealed his cards too early in the game.

The relationships were what drove this story, and now in the space of an omake and a chapter all mystery about them has been removed. Meciel and Harry's relationship has become two dimensional, and Harry likes Amanda - or at least likes to be kissed by her, which is a step along the way.

Edit: It also feels like you've crippled Dumbledore too much too early, assuming he stays blind.

 

I agree with many others that this just was not a good way to redeem Meciel. I have no problem with Dumbledore being able to temporary bringing Meciel to the circle to talk to her. But not alter her in any way.

Also it appeared that Meciel had already bound "Lily" to her will. She must have done more then bind her, breaking her mind and making her loyal to Meciel would have made sense.

Instead of Meciel merging with Lily could Lily have fought Meciel for a brief time, Lily's love reminding Meciel of heaven for a moment and it triggers the slow redemtion of Meciel...

 

I'm going to jump back into this discussion as well, now that it isn't an ungodly hour and I've actually slept a little bit in-between exams.

First of all, if you do decide to keep this plot-twist in the main story, please at least push it back a chapter or two as someone said - it just literally, from the perspective of the reader, feels exactly like what it is - some random idea that came to the author very quickly and he decided to surgically insert it. Dumbledore is musing at his desk, goes 'Aha!' pulls out a book, and then wham-bam-thank you ma'am, he's ready to whip out some hardcore ancient/divine/true magic on a fallen angel? It definitely needs a little bit more build up.

That having been said, I really hope you decide to not follow this plot-line. To clarify my own personal opinion of Meciel, and it follows closely with Datakim's opinion, you have really altered her character too much. If I recall correctly, the first few chapters of Renegade established that she used to hunt down Nephilim, or the children of angels and mortals. However, she just couldn't go through with it - she couldn't kill children. For this, she was banished.

Now, first thing is first - obviously in Dresdenverse at least, angels can exude free will - otherwise, as Datakim said, they would have never fallen in the first place, unless that was God's plan. Meciel chose not to fulfill her purpose and was thus punished for it, generating her dislike of God.

What I thought was the awesome thing about where Renegade ended is that you insinuated that Harry/Meciel, fallen though they may be, perhaps their redemption is in the future, through God and the sword. I remember when Harry/Meciel first realize that one of the three swords of God, imbued with a nail from the Crucification worked for them, Meciel was full of doubt, confusion and anger. Now, again, perhaps she just sort of fed false feelings to Harry, but that feels cheap. Especially given that God just decided to allow a blade to work for her.

I agree with what has been expressed - the complexity of the situation when dealing with good/evil - the innate nature of a fallen angel, was the fascinating thing about this tale. To suddenly (and without any warning) reveal that she is apparently nothing but mindless evil cheapens the character to such an extent that it is a major turn-off.

I'll be perfectly blunt - I read very few fan-fics these days as I'm just too busy with real world stuff at school, and the lack of decent stories coming out these days. Yours is/was one of the best, and one of two I actually keep up with - the other being The Hero Trilogy by joe_6991 whom I moderate for. No offense to the creator/author of this new idea you've incorporated - but unless you wait to merge it in seamlessly with the story (and I hope you do not) it feels very 'off'.

I won't reiterate further what Datakim has already brought up, but a story that was rife with originality is bordering on 'Powah of Luv!' nonesense. I beg of you, Shezza, please stick to whatever was originally your plan! Don't utilize this, no offense, sub-par twist.

 

As much as I am for the 'redemption' of Merciel, I don't think that having a human heart, even if its Lily's, is any guarantee of it.

As Ryuugi Shi said, and I have to agree with, the human race isn't all that impressive. Plenty of us will spend time in the place where Hitler has a pineapple shoved up his ass on a regular basis, and we have 'human hearts.'

As far as Merciel is concerned, this influence that Harry now has over her may very well be an unacceptable liability. Then there’s still the matter of the prophecy connecting Voldemort and Harry in a battle to the death, and she has seen him lose to Voldemort, who does not poses a fallen himself. What is she going to do when she learns of the prophecy?

Self preservation has overridden "love" before fed and many, many times.

 

My opinion exactly... only much more properly put.

This whole chapter feels like a knee-jerk reaction to the omake with Amanda (hohoho! Harry likes to be kissed by Amanda... but... to counterbalance this development, we must allow Meciel the ability to love!).

This idea could work, but only later in the story. Not here. Not when there's already enough going on; with Voldemort on the prowl and things still developing. Not when we still don't know Harry's true feelings on Amanda, or even Meciel's on Harry.

Perhaps the worst part here? Harry has no awareness of what's going on. He doesn't even have the opportunity from stopping Dumbledore's spell. Maybe he wants Meciel to love him out of freewill, if she even does. Perhaps this scene could be altered:

Harry says he wants to be loved freely, not to be given love. Still, Dumbledore casts the spell and Meciel has the heart of Lily. Now, Harry wants nothing to do with her. He doesn't find her affection or presence genuine; he begins to loathe her instead.

Or Harry could just refuse and the old man could back down.

But now that I contemplate this idea... no, even if I consider the above scenarios, the scene really doesn't belong. Not with some explanation as to how Dumbledore can even perform such powerful magic in the first place! Or even what Lily has to do with anything. She's not been mentioned here or there since the beginning, it's a 3rd party barging into this conflict and solving it out of left field.

If Meciel is going to change, and it's not going to be of her own free will, it has to be by a force the reader can anticipate. Using Lily is no stretch, but when she has not been mentioned at all for some 50~ chapters besides the occassional "What happened to your parents, Harry?" for her to barge in and influence the outcome of a major conflict is just wrong.

It's like rocks falling and killing them all. "Ohhoho! You couldn't have guessed that ending!"

 

The new version satisfies my objections.

 

Jon, you couldn't beat your meat without getting a black eye. Shut up.

 

I always had this theory that the series would end with Harry dieing to free meciel somehow.

Now with this addition, I'm thinking Motherly love, dead son...
Super pissed off demi god - Armegedon, 2012 aztec apocalypse shit!

A woman scorned... and all that.

Edit: While I like this chapter, fundamentally I diagree with the whole meciel can't express emotions properly thing.

I dislike how they classify her as a demon, when she is truly a fallen angel... the operative word being angel.

If anything she would know better than any human what love truly is, and a mothers love would probably be kinda pitiful compared to heavenly/Gods love.