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The 'Powerful!Harry' Debate

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sir Snuffy, Jul 9, 2016.

  1. EnnuiKills

    EnnuiKills Muggle

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    I'd like to second that... Has the potential to finally be an example of that old adage of "so bad it's good" ;)
     
  2. blueeyedsidhecat

    blueeyedsidhecat First Year

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    You asked, so here it is. https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8233288/1/Faery-Heroes Faery Heroes, by Silently Watches. I would agree about so bad it's good-fic has some good moments, and author doesn't write bad, but it is full of cliches and Dumbledore/Weasley bashing.
     
  3. Sir Snuffy

    Sir Snuffy Third Year DLP Supporter

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    Holy shit, 245k words. You have to appreciate the determined ones.

    Edit: The beginning chapters aren't actually that bad, despite the harem, time-travel, Harry calling the his 'loves' and 'lovers' at every opportunity and the wizard/muggle war where the muggles fuck up all the wizards. The writing is quite good, in spite of the above.

    I trust that this story is more of a parody of the clichés, which is why its sins are more forgivable. I am yet to come across Harry increasing his magicore by the method of babe-banging.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
  4. blueeyedsidhecat

    blueeyedsidhecat First Year

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    I admit that at beginning I liked it. It was interesting, but then we got to manipulative Dumbledore and Weasleys attempting to give love potion right and left ( then again, it may just be me. I have distaste to character bashing).

    Author has wrote new stories, the latest being Harry Potter/Dresden Files crossover. It is solid story.

    It has 50 chapters. If I remember right, it was somewhere around 33-35th chapter.
     
  5. Sir Snuffy

    Sir Snuffy Third Year DLP Supporter

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    Got to the bit where Harry gets pissed off and starts going 'Crucio! Crucio! Crucio!' and I couldn't take it anymore. The dialogue is so cheesy sometimes it's ridiculous.

    I'm not even going to bother looking for the magical core thingy.
     
  6. Joe

    Joe The Reminiscent Exile Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Hey, some of us are only getting warmed up in the first quarter mill.

    I'm more than guilty when it comes to giving Harry some... exceptional levels of power. The Hero Trilogy was absurd, Wastelands he kind of earned it. I think so long as you increase the challenge to that power - that is, either make Voldemort as powerful, or present a challenge to the absurd abilities, the story can still work.

    I love reading and writing super powered Harry, but only if there's still a challenge to that power.
     
  7. KGB

    KGB Death Eater

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    The type of super!harry I hate the most is the one where author pretends Harry isn't supper.

    Sure Harry just killed 10 Death Eaters, or stunned ten aurors, or performed legilimancy on Dumbledore, but that doesn't make him super powerful because Voldemort is so much stronger... Blah, blah, blah.

    These are also the type of stories that are abandoned before Harry ever even meets Voldemort, because the author run out of ideas what to throw at Harry so it would even look like there are any chalanges left.

    Or the other option is that Harry will inevitably suffer from plot related stupidity, where every now and again will forget whatever it is that he has been doing in previous fights. Just so the author can say "See here harry lost, so he's totally not super"
     
  8. Sir Snuffy

    Sir Snuffy Third Year DLP Supporter

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    That's the hard part. Either Super!Harry becomes Super in one day and kicks so much ass that:

    Or he progresses so slowly that by the end, the author has to give him 'the ultimate power boost' or else he just dies.

    Encountered this many times where Harry couldn't do a bunch of stuff for the entire fic but then suddenly 'it clicked' and he could fart around wandless magic out of his ass in the last chapters, thus defeating the mighty Dark Lord. *cue 'kiss passionately' for pairings*

    Wastelands had a great reason for Harry to be as powerful as he was (still waiting for Heartlands update :p), with the Hero trilogy being... slightly questionable at times. In the end, agree with what you guys say.

    In my opinion, a Super!Harry fic needs some sort of pre-planning (unless you have a solid foundation), otherwise you might blow through the steam too fast and end up in boiling water.
     
  9. blueeyedsidhecat

    blueeyedsidhecat First Year

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    I found lot of Super Harry fics that have him go to some super school ( which is of course in America) where he learns blood magic, necromancy, runes, elemental control and what you have, that prepares him for fighting Voldemort much better than Hogwarts ever could... And of course, time that was spent in canon finding horcruxes and ensuring Voldemort stays dead this time is wasted on rants how British misunderstand Dark Magic, and how backwards they are... Oh, and Harry gets cool name and familiar, of course.
     
  10. Triliro

    Triliro Second Year

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    I feel like this is just people copying A Second Chance at Life, or perhaps thats the fic you're talking about, because it hits every point you gave. Cool name excluded.
     
  11. ihateseatbelts

    ihateseatbelts Seventh Year

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    The worst Super!Harry-centric plot(s) that I can think of go to the author of such classic calamities as Love Before Death, its sequel Life After Evil and the Kings of Magic series.

    I first came across this body of work at the tender age of fourteen. I'd never read a "powerful" Harry before that, but that was my first hit. Took a long time to break that habit. On top of that, these stories are from the mid-2000s so they've aged terribly.

    Back on topic: I can guarantee that you've never read a Gary Stu like this before. Obscene inheritances, godlike powers, friendly goblins, remorseful Dursleys, GigglyHormonalSexpotDamsel!Mione, UselessCovetous!Ron... I'd go on, but the list would be as long as the fics themselves.

    As for plausibility, ScottPress nailed it. Time is the integral component, here. In HP, I'd say that a character's magical power is directly proportional to their wisdom, and I use the term wisdom because it encompasses a broad spectrum of concepts (knowledge, reasoning, creativity, empathy, etc.) and magical power itself arguably can and does manifest in vastly different ways, as opposed to "who can blow up everything more". But all of those facets of wisdom require time and chemistry to develop.

    So you can technically have a "powerful" Harry in his third year, but powerful compared to whom:

    - His peer group?
    - An angry mob in Hogsmeade?
    - Someone like Ollivander?
    - A band of Death Eaters?

    At the very least, the last two groups have to display more cognitive power than a thirteen-year-old Harry, so unless you pull magical cores/reserves, time-travel or the Genius Card out of the bag, Harry could realistically only be called powerful when compared to those his age. There's nothing wrong with this; it makes for a great contrast when someone like Dumbledore has to step in, and gives you a taste of how skilled Harry may become in time.

    Like in a half-century's time, but still.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
  12. Triliro

    Triliro Second Year

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    On some level I agree with you here, More time= More knowledge of magic etc etc. But I also have to disagree entirely. Voldemort was 71 when he died, and Dumbledore was either 115/6 years old when he died, but they are shown to be fairly similarly powerful. Not to mention that members of the DA a student group were able to duel Death Eaters with at least some (if little) success, and they didn't even have a proper teacher for the DA or DADA.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
  13. blueeyedsidhecat

    blueeyedsidhecat First Year

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    Never heard of that fic. Is it any good?
     
  14. Triliro

    Triliro Second Year

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    Guilty Pleasure at the best.
     
  15. arkkitehti

    arkkitehti Groundskeeper

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    I'm going to assume that "powerful" in the context of this thread means capability of beating other wizards in combat, not the skill of creating protections or enchanting objects or something.

    Really all we see of magical combat in canon (bar Dumbledore, but more on that later) is very straight forward "shoot spells (=magical missiles) at your opponent and use shields to protect yourself". Voldemort does this, Bellatrix does this, Moody does this; that's the way magical combat works even at the highest levels of deadliness and skill. We also know that the spells wizards can use are ridiculously overpowered; in the first four years of education Harry masters three different one-hit-win spells: the petrification spell, the disarming spell and the stunner—and that's not counting the killing curse he also learns.

    Given this, I just can't see magical combat as being particularly difficult; the number of useful spells is rather limited, and relatively easy to learn for even a somewhat dedicated teenager. The rest is just speed, killer instinct and situational awareness, something that's typically associated with young men high on adrenaline, not wise, mature, elderly people.

    Now, as said earlier, Dumbledore is somewhat of an exception to this. Dumbledore seems to have much higher level of control of everything around him, using the surroundings both as weapons and shields, making things happen near and far at the same time with no sign of individual spells used. He has a style different to everyone else in canon. But anyway, that's only Dumbledore; you could get to the Voldemort's level of combat skill easily enough.

    Obviously older, more experienced people know all kinds of magic that can make them bad-ass, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with combat.
     
  16. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    Magical combat isn't just shooting missiles and using cover. This ain't Gears of War. In OOTP, Dumbledore animates the statues from the fountain in the atrium during his duel with Dumbledore. Movies overwrote your recollection of the books.

    I think yours is an overly simplistic way to look at it, but whatever floats your boat, mate.
     
  17. ihateseatbelts

    ihateseatbelts Seventh Year

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    And it wasn't just Dumbledore, either. McGonagall, Snape, Percy, and Hermione all used regular, typically non-deadly Charms and Transfiguration spells to their advantage in battle. If one thing is clear, it's that there isn't one way to win every duel, or even one duel at all.
     
  18. chaosattractor

    chaosattractor Groundskeeper

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    I still hold that magic is fueled by angst, which is why Harry is good at it. Being skilled at it on the other hand requires actually sitting down to learn and try out spells, which Harry tends not to do unless [insert annual mortally dangerous situation] is happening.
     
  19. arkkitehti

    arkkitehti Groundskeeper

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    Go back and read the Battle of the DoM from OotP again. Combat in canon is overly simplistic.

    I mean, I like the duels from TLIL, ABC and Wastelands as much as anyone, but if you're going to argue about what's plausible for Harry and what's not then canon is the source.
     
  20. chaosattractor

    chaosattractor Groundskeeper

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    "Voldemort paid no attention.

    'I have nothing more to say to you, Potter,' he said quietly. `You have irked me too often, for too long. AVADA KEDAVRA!'

    Harry had not even opened his mouth to resist; his mind was blank, his wand pointing uselessly at the floor.

    But the headless golden statue of the wizard in the fountain had sprung alive, leaping from its plinth to land with a crash on the floor between Harry and Voldemort. The spell merely glanced off its chest as the statue flung out its arms to protect Harry.

    `What -?' cried Voldemort, staring around. And then he breathed, `Dumbledore!'

    Harry looked behind him, his heart pounding. Dumbledore was standing in front of the golden gates.

    Voldemort raised his wand and another jet of green light streaked at Dumbledore, who turned and was gone in a whirling of his cloak. Next second, he had reappeared behind Voldemort and waved his wand towards the remnants of the fountain. The other statues sprang to life. The statue of the witch ran at Bellatrix, who screamed and sent spells streaming uselessly off its chest, before it dived at her, pinning her to the floor. Meanwhile, the goblin and the house-elf scuttled towards the fireplaces set along the wall and the one-armed centaur galloped at Voldemort, who vanished and reappeared beside the pool. The headless statue thrust Harry backwards, away from the fight, as Dumbledore advanced on Voldemort and the golden centaur cantered around them both.

    'It was foolish to come here tonight, Tom,' said Dumbledore calmly. `The Aurors are on their way -'

    'By which time I shall be gone, and you will be dead!' spat Voldemort. He sent another killing curse at Dumbledore but
    missed, instead hitting the security guard's desk, which burst into flame.
    Dumbledore flicked his own wand: the force of the spell that emanated from it was such that Harry, though shielded by his golden guard, felt his hair stand on end as it passed and this time Voldemort was forced to conjure a shining silver shield out of thin air to deflect it. The spell, whatever it was, caused no visible damage to the shield, though a deep, gong-like note reverberated from it - an oddly chilling sound.

    'You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?' called Voldemort, his scarlet eyes narrowed over the top of the shield. 'Above such brutality, are you?'

    'We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom,' Dumbledore said calmly, continuing to walk towards Voldemort as though he had not a fear in the world, as though nothing had happened to interrupt his stroll up the hall. `Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit -'

    'There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!' snarled Voldemort.

    'You are quite wrong,' said Dumbledore, still closing in upon Voldemort and speaking as lightly as though they were discussing the matter over drinks. Harry felt scared to see him walking along, undefended, shieldless; he wanted to cry out a warning, but his headless guard kept shunting him backwards towards the wall, blocking his every attempt to get out from behind it. 'Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness -'

    Another jet of green light flew from behind the silver shield. This time it was the one-armed centaur, galloping in front of Dumbledore, that took the blast and shattered into a hundred pieces, but before the fragments had even hit the floor, Dumbledore had drawn back his wand and waved it as though brandishing a whip. A long thin flame flew from the tip; it wrapped itself around Voldemort, shield and all. For a moment, it seemed Dumbledore had won, but then the fiery rope became a serpent, which relinquished its hold on Voldemort at once and turned, hissing furiously, to face Dumbledore.

    Voldemort vanished; the snake reared from the floor, ready to strike
    There was a burst of flame in midair above Dumbledore just as Voldemort reappeared, standing on the plinth in the middle of the pool where so recently the five statues had stood.

    'Look out!' Harry yelled.

    But even as he shouted, another jet of green light flew at Dumbledore from Voldemort's wand and the snake struck.
    Fawkes swooped down in front of Dumbledore, opened his beak wide and swallowed the jet of green light whole: he burst into flame and fell to the floor, small, wrinkled and flightless. At the same moment, Dumbledore brandished his wand in one long, fluid movement - the snake, which had been an instant from sinking its fangs into him, flew high into the air and vanished in a wisp of dark smoke; and the water in the pool rose up and covered Voldemort like a cocoon of molten glass.

    For a few seconds Voldemort was visible only as a dark, rippling, faceless figure, shimmering and indistinct upon the plinth, clearly struggling to throw off the suffocating mass

    Then he was gone and the water fell with a crash back into its pool, slopping wildly over the sides, drenching the polished floor."

    Is that the overly simplistic battle you were talking about?
     
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