While most of that statement might be mostly true, I think my biggest issue with the last two books doesn't even have to do with the plot (well, it sort of does, but not enough to be relevant). It has to do with the plot structure of the story, namely the pacing and some of the ludicrous plotting that Rowling basically forced herself to do to maintain the verisimilitude of the plot.

Take the shipping. In all due fairness, the groundwork for Harry/Ginny should have been laid years earlier. At least most of Ron/Hermione shipping was foreshadowed in the earlier books, but H/G came out of fucking nowhere. Or the Horcruxes - while Rowling did a great job introducing them, I would have loved to see more hunting and legitimate searching efforts throughout the last two to three books - but instead everything was crammed into the ends of HBP and DH, and Rowling was forced to resort to the fairly unbelievable event of Ron using Parseltongue. Keep in mind that FOUR of the Horcruxes are destroyed within the final hundred pages of DH - at the same time as several major deaths and a major battle. While there is dramatic tension, there's none of the same emotion and climax that was found in the destruction of the locket or the diary in CoS, and I think that's a damn shame. Worse yet, in all the time where she COULD have had Harry adventuring and hunting for Horcruxes, she has him camping, doing the equivalent of NOTHING.

While it might be realistic and believable and all that garbage, the story didn't have to take that path. If Rowling had primed the 'quest' better in HBP for DH, she could have done a far better job pacing the Horcrux hunt, set in a conflicted and warring Britain. If she had primed the relationships in a more realistic manner, the ships would be a lot more sensible and might actually draw some emotional impact from the readers instead of a 'meh.' And with that same elongation of the Horcrux plotline into the entirety of the last two books, she could have gotten some mileage out of the slew of excellent characters she created and then spends most of DH ignoring.

So yeah, while fanfiction has shown me welcome alternatives, there were problems with the last two books that have nothing to do with my personal preferences, and it's a damn shame that Rowling had to continue the plot the way she did because of the way she set up HBP. I think this can't be iterated enough: if HBP was paced and written differently, DH would have been a better book.

 

Following a suggestion I wanted to expand and touch upon the validity of JKR's work.

I understand that opinions may differ, but still some semblance of reality should be maintained; while following the willing suspension of disbelief we must not forget the reality that drove us to appreciate that particular work of fiction.

As I've read the thread I've noticed there is a lot of personal reflection impacting the reception of HP series. While in itself it shouldn't be bad nor discouraged, I believe a more objective (or academic) viewpoint could be advantageous to the discussion. Okay. Following that little rant I've that to say:

I have a theory (touched upon by many people on this board, so it's nothing new):
JKR was surprised by the book's success (DUH!!!). I'm very fond of the first three books; seeing them as a general coming of age, children story that's prevalent in European literature (Astrid Lindgren anyone). If one analyses the books, one can see that it all depends on reliable stereotypes: good teacher (Dumble, McG), bad teacher (Snape, Quirell (Lock)), good peers, bad peers, so on, so on... It's nowhere near Lucy Montgomery level but enjoyable all the same. After that it all gets muddy and unreasonably complicated. I had the feeling that I could respect the teacher and any adult characters up 'till the fourth book started. (Paraphrasing my best friend : Adults behave like children and children behave like underdeveloped inbred infants [the original was somewhat different but untranslatable] ). And while it is fairly obvious the author milked her fame and popularity for what it was worth it shouldn't distract one from what was important to the literary success of the series.

I won't spout on the mechanism behind HP's popularity, since it's pointless, I'd like to prod the intricacies of what made Harry one of the cultural icons of the 21st century and designate the issues that made the wonderful reality created by JKR so important to us.

 

Essentially this.

I think the whole concept of an item-hunt leading to the defeat of the Dark Lord is disappointing. Despite that it was still good enough for me, I actually did like the whole exploration of Voldemorts past/character and the subsequent retracement of his horcruxes, but it could have been so much better. A Black Comedy for example was simply brilliant in that regard, an old hideout of Grindelwald? A tomb in the middle of the desert? A vast improvement.

We know that Voldemort travelled around the world after Hogwarts in order to increase his expertise in the Dark Arts, keeping all of his horcruxes, his means to overcome the only thing he's afraid of, within a single country is somewhat questionable. But again, we've seen the other side of that argument too, like the horcrux in space from Methods of Rationality.

Well, that's at least my opinion.

 

This pretty much sums up the majority of the problems with the last two books for me so Quoted for Fucking Truth .

 

Agreed. I think that Silens Cursor has summed up the majority of the problems that the last two books had...well, plot/structure wise, anyway.

 

A truly eloquent post.

Of course, the Dursleys' didn't actually die. And Harry didn't cry over them in any respect, so it's a completely inaccurate post, but it's eloquent nonetheless.

Don't bitch about it if you can't be bothered to even go and look it up on wikipedia

 

hmm, I actually read the last two books on three different language, i don't know why.... Anyway,that was irrelevant, back to topic, these last two books made these series what actually they were,children books.(happy ending,eternal love,etc) In my opinion the first three books were actually good,and had the possibility to become something more, sadly She choose the most boring,unimaginative and "cliché"-d plot line. I use the term "cliché" loosely because, I'm not talking about fanfiction, but the Clichés of Book writing. I've red it,and again, and it has every damn cliché you can find.Ever.

Let's not talk about the deus ex machina. one of my friends said: 'It's a textbook example for deus ex machina.' I think enuff said.

About the character development: for the first half of the series(till the fourth book) Harry uses his brain, studies... and so much more. Actually it's funny,that he is more mature when he is eleven, then when he is seventeen.Damn those hormones.I bet they are working for word domination. Soooo, back to topic: Clearly (many before had said this.All heil!) She never was a teenager, because damn, the emos aren't so...well emo.It annoyed me greatly,that the whole fifth book went on about Harry bitching,angsting(is that a word?) and more bitching, I think you can imagine it.Who cares? if I want to read angsty bitching then I will read something from Dostoyevsky.

I think thats all... thanks for reading...

 

I can understand that somebody doesn't like OOTP because it's an attitude break to the previous more light hearted books and probably because of Sirius's death.

BUT, I simply disagree because the frustration, angst and anger of Harry makes perfect sense in the context of what happened after GOF and how he was treated by Dumbledore and his friends.

What I would have liked though is Harry using his anger and frustration to deal with his problems more aggressively and directly. Something he actually did before in POA's beginning for example.

The beginning of "Anger Management" on ffic would have been well placed in OOTP to add some spice to the Doom&Gloom for instance.

Regardless, I think OOTP gave so many options for the future plot since perhaps POA, unfortunately JKR never scratched at its full potential. That was my ultimate frustration, not with OOTP but with HBP and DH.

 

I saw a pretty good theory a while back based off a passage from Godel Escher Bach that makes everything after Goblet of Fire noncanonical... I'll see if I can dig it up.

The thing I missed most from the last novel was the return of the Flying Ford Anglia. Rowling promised me a flying car, and she did not deliver.

 

How can things be non-canonical after the fourth book? I just don't see how that'd work, even if the last few books were dog shit.

 

Silens: if we accept that the problem with the last couple of books was that not enough time was devoted to Horcrux hunting (a plausible thesis, even though I would have preferred no Horcrux hunting at all) I don't think the problem is HBP. Rather, it's OotP. It basically stalls the war a whole book. OotP did a lot of characterisation, but plot? We ended OotP at the same spot we thought we were when we ended GoF.

If the events of HBP had been merged into OotP then the last two books would have been better set for a properly realised Horcrux hunt (of course, due to the nature of magic - apparation etc. - it was never going to be a LotR style quest).

 

To me OOTP has broaden the HP universe, the Ministry could have formed a 3rd power greedy group after OOTP which would have made it really more interesting but all the investment into that was quite wasted. The same with the department of mystery, also completely wasted despite the effort she made in creating it.
And the order itself, was there any real point in them to give some background texture to OOTP ? They didn't do anything really afterwards if we ignore the mental retarded escape plan in DH.

 

The problem with both OOTP and HBP is that the plots weren't really thought out. It seems to me that JK Rowling had no idea where she was going with them. I know she's said she had all seven books planned out, but there isn't really any evidence of this. The characterization in them is all at least passable, but the way the story is constructed isn't very strong or coherent. With OOTP the problem was that the entire plot hinged on Harry being stupid under pressure, while he's been characterized as actually performing well when things get sticky. By this I'm not talking about impulsiveness, I'm talking about his inability to think about ways to actually communicate with his godfather (and by extension the entire Order).

With HBP it was that the actual climax of the book was not in the vision of Harry. In terms of story, HBP actually revolved around Malfoy's emotional journey into an even more pathetic whiner than he was before, rather than Harry's understanding of his foe. We only find out what happened indirectly; this is probably why most of the book feels like filler. The horcruxes (I hate the name, but appreciate the nod to DnD with them) had enough design space for her to really have fun with them. I really had no particular preferences as to the methods Voldemort used to stay alive, and what amount to lichs' phylacteries are hardly the most groundbreaking concept. I didn't enjoy Volemort's characterization thoughout the entire reveal of his past, as he simply didn't seem particularly cunning. Or intelligent. Or anything other than fearful. In general, this is the weakest book in terms of just about anything, except maybe PoA, and it didn't have PoA's charm.

 

I just read this and I must admit, I do agree. I read the HP books on a whim and I really loved the first four. But after OOTP, I felt it just went downhill.

And that prophecy just made me gag. Whether or not it's true, I feel that including a prophecy is just a cop out more than anything. Instead of developing Harry to the point where he would have either wanted to hunt Voldemort down or providing some impetus for Harry to slay him, she pulled out this massive clusterfuck.

HBP really didn't do anything for me. It was like she was trying to cram three years worth of teenage stupidity into nine months. I'm all for suspension of disbelief but if Harry was going to notice Ginny "the Youngest Ginger" Weasley, wouldn't it be before it all.

Didn't even think of her before that and then it's wham! Oedipus Complex assuming command, must plow red-head.

I am sorry for necro-posting, just had to agree