What I'm getting from this is you can describe any character, maybe compare them to multiple other characters from another story and then add Sue to the end and a "Mary Sue" is born. If that's true you can "Mary Sue" any character ever created. Let's see...

Fela is attractive smart and loyal but has spunk and attitude.. well that could be Hermione and Ginny Sue. Manet could easily be described as looking like Hagrid but not wanting to grow up like Peter Pan Sue. Etc.

I have yet to read a book that doesn't have half a dozen of these things. You are going to have cliche character types in all books, because that's just what they are, character types. There's no making a book without them. It is the detail you put into characters and your background, along with development within the story that truly marks the strength of a book. And I think that is what Rothfuss has done so well in his books. The general characters are there but the details he sprinkles in and the pace of his writing is what makes his work so entertaining.

 

I didn't really dislike anything from the books, though I agree some parts tended to drag on too long. What I can say with absolute certainty is that Rothfuss could pick up Twilight and rewrite it to be art. The guy just has a way with words.

What he does with the plot remains to be seen. I don't see how he can wrap up the Amyr and Chandrian arc in one volume, but I still think he has a chance. However it turns out, no matter how badly the story ends, I'm sure I'll keep having these mini orgasms at the end of each sentence. Seriously. Art.

/fanboy

 

LOL butthurt fanboys.


Denna's not a Mary Sue, she's just a love interest, so naturally she's given a certain amount of attractive qualities and a mysterious allure to cover up whatever the Big Reveal concerning her will be.

Kvothe is a deliberate subversion of the Mary Sue trope, but the subversion was much better done in NOTW. In WMF, it felt less like a subversion and more like Rothfuss really was writing a Mary Sue. Loved and aided by people who have no rational reason to put themselves out for him, hated by people who have no particular reason to hate him other than to make it clear they're EEEbil, and able to pull fantastic new abilities out of his ass when it suits the plot.

Rothfuss gets away with it because he's a spectacularly good storyteller, and he's dropped enough hints that Nothing Is What It Seems that I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and see him make it all make sense in the third book. And Mary Sue or not, the books are entertaining as hell -- because, again, Rothfuss is a spectacularly good writer. But without those writing chops and an enviable ability to tell an overlong story that still holds your attention, he'd be soundly mocked for the shit he pulled in WMF. I am never going to forgive fifteen-year-old-virgin-who-can-convince-an-immortal-femme-fatale-that-he's-totally-wise-in-the-ways-of-pleasurin'-da-ladies, and no, "It's part of a mythic fairy tale world so it doesn't have to make sense that's just how things work in fairyland" is not a good explanation.

 

I don't see where you're getting this from; it's pretty clear in the book that Felurian teaches him everything about sex during his stay in the Fae realm. He doesn't convince her of anything.

 

When does he pull new fantastic abilities out of his ass? Naming Felurian and the wind? That is about as far from pulling out of his ass as it gets. Kvothe has spent years looking for the name of the wind and has already found the name of the wind once which would make it easier to do so again. Elodin also specifically says that danger rouses the sleeping mind. The scene with Felurian was easily the most danger he had been in since his parents were killed. That moment had been coming since he used the name of the wind against Ambrose, which had been coming since he say Ben do it at the beginning of NotW. To say that was pulled out of his ass is beyond stupid.

 

She doesn't realize he's a virgin until he tells her she was his first.

In disbelief, she praises his lovemaking skills.

So, he's so good that an immortal love goddess who is legendary for seducing men and screwing them to death, literally, couldn't tell that she was sleeping with a fifteen-year-old boy who'd never had sex before.

 

I seem to remember it being more that she couldn't fathom anyone not having had sex before. But that part sort of blurs together for me, I'll have to re-read it.

As for the Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu shit: fuck that. I've never held those labels in high regard.

 

Isn't part of the appeal of these books a character who is, ultimately, competent? I love seeing Kvothe pull of awesome shit, its the most entertaining part of the books. The bits we complain about are the parts where he gets beat up in Adem or sits around in a forest, ie the parts where he isn't owning everyone.

Rothfuss loves to use common fantasy tropes and write them well enough that you don't care that they're cliches. For me, Kvothe is the biggest. Yes, he has way too many good qualities, and his bad ones are still good, but he is still a rich character, with issues and hurdles he can't overcome. There a ton of other things like this in the books, like the classic rich boy whos a dick, and best friend who is overly understanding, etc etc etc, but they are just taken to the best possible place, and that is what makes the books so awesome.

 

Hmm, that's true. But she also tells him that he has a lot to learn. I guess I just don't see this issue as that big of a deal, especially considering that Felurian is essentially the goddess of sex and subconsciously influences everything around her with magic.

 

I figured she was just praising his... enthusiasm. I imagine that Rothfuss was grinning like a loon when he wrote those lines. I'm actually fairly pleased with how Kvothe's brilliance mixes with his youthful hotheadedness and lack of inexperience to get him into hot water. If he'd been able to hold his tongue with Meluan and the Maer he might have a ridiculously powerful patron, not to mention being a landed noble in Vintas.

If he hadn't been so out of it after killing the False Ruh troupe he might have reminded the girl not to talk about the fact that he killed a bunch of people. If he hadn't arrogantly assumed that he understood Tempi, he may not have gotten them into trouble. His lack of forethought got him into trouble several times with the Adem as well.

His actions always have consequences, both good and bad. Sure he has plot armor like any protagonist, but its so well wrought that I don't care. Kind of the same thing with Dresden, really.

 

You are trying to support a bias here. Trying to re-interrogate the situation with a bit of distance: a virgin is having sex with a goddess. That is what part one of those extended scene boils down to. Within it, there seems to be no measure of irony. Rothfuss is not subverting the usual male-fantasy-fulfillment trope here in any way whatsoever (unless the whole scene is a lie - but that's another matter entirely.) He has sex, gets some cool items, meets a talking prescient shrub. And by escaping, he does something nobody else has done before. Leaving aside obvious physical issues like for exactly how long can the male body, hyped up on teenage hormones and goddess brand aphrodisiac, have sex before dehydration and extreme and painful sensitivity set in - *cough*. Besides that, isn't the whole thing just... tacky? And kind of useless and puerile? And surely a master storyteller like Rothfuss could have envisioned a better way to give the guy access to the fairy realms and talking shrubs, no?

It might still tie up later on - now that he's had sex with her, will he follow the general pattern set up that myth she's a part of? But at this moment, I'm not really concerned about deferred gratification.

Kvote has long gone past mere competent. I wouldn't have minded had he fumbled a bit more. And perhaps even failed a couple of times. Although, Denna's comment at the end, "isn't there anything you don't know", when he deciphers the meaning of the knots of her hair, is, I believe, a subtle clue that perhaps, just perhaps Kvote-present is bloated with hot air. These and a couple of other instances still made me hold out hope for the unreliability of the narrator - and that is something I hope comes to play extensively in the next book.

 

You mean like when he completely failed to land himself that patronage he'd been aiming for? True, he didn't exactly come out of it badly, but it was far from the result he'd hoped for. Or that bit where he repeatedly got his arse kicked by a twelve year old girl? And before someone says anything about him passing the test with the sword tree, that does not mean he's as good a warrior as the Adem. He's barely average, by their standards. What he is good at is the strength of will/magic, which seems to overlap a little with the Adem skills. Or maybe you're thinking of that bit where he hit one of the Chandrian with a fucking lightning bolt and apparently managed to not even knock him unconscious. Or possibly his incredible success with Denna.

Leaving all that aside, this is the second book of what appears to be a tragedy more than anything else. First book - beginnings. He takes his first steps on the path to glory. Second book - everything's amazing, he's fantastic, yadda yadda yadda. Third book - well, he's going to end up failing a lot, it seems. Patience.

 

For me the whole appeal is that he's more than competent.

In so many stories you have characters like Kvothe in the background. The Dumbledores, the Voldemorts, the Grindelwalds. The legends who were kicking ass and taking names when still in their teens.

What's so satisfying about NotW is that we finally get to see one of these characters as the protagonist, not the wise old man or the antagonist.

 

So much fucking this. When I read fantasy, I want to read about a badass who can do a lot of things. Doesn't mean I want him to have an easy time, but if I feel the protagonist is doing retarded things, I loose interest very quickly.

 

I was under the assumption, that since he knew the "name" of Ferulian he could understand her and thus allowing him to make sweet passionate love? Much like when he knew the name of the wind at the sword tree he could visualize the path of the leaves.

 

The "sweet passionate love" she praised him for happened before their fight.

Anyways, I completely agree with Taure. The story wouldn't work if Kvothe weren't competent.

 

Maybe it's the fact that he was intimate with a being whose primary purpose is sex that allowed him to call out her Name. After all, she's basically sex made physical, so once you've had sex with her you possibly know all there is to know about her (or at least a good part of it), which is key to understanding and finding the Name of things, or so it seems to me.

 

This might have come up before but does it ever say what E'lthe means? E'lir is seer, Re'lar is speaker;but I can't remember if El'the is ever mentioned.

 

I've been curious about that as well, but I don't think it does. We'll probably find out when Kvothe gets there, if he ever does. Maybe Rothfuss will spill in an interview or something.

 

My guess would be 'Listener', because as it is Kvothe can 'See' and 'Speak' but he cannot 'Hear' the Names that other people say. Remember when the girl in Elodin's class said the Name of Stone, but all Kvothe could hear was the word Stone? I bet he'll have to teach himself to hear those words at some point.