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The Wise Man's Fear by Patrick Rothfuss

Discussion in 'Books and Anime Discussion' started by Joe, Feb 25, 2011.

  1. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    I read the "waiting to die" bit completely differently to you. I don't read it as meaning that he has a terminal illness, or anything like that. I read it as meaning he no longer has anything to live for - he's lost purpose. He's not living, he's just continuing until he dies - which may be tomorrow, or maybe be 80 years away.
     
  2. Styx0444

    Styx0444 Minister of Magic

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    I reread that section - Kote didn't have the piece for weeks. He had it four days, at most, and that's assuming he doesn't go to kill the scrael the night he buys equipment from the smith.

    Again, why? Is making an uber-draccus so hard that it requires the greatest of the shapers to be involved? Why should the armor be poisonous, and why is that more likely then Lanre being tricked into thinking Lyra was a suicidal burglar, or that a bottle of poison would go great in her ice cream, or even that another woman was Lyra? He sleeps with her, Lyra walks in, kills herself. He realizes his mistake, the woman turns into Iax, the first and greatest trap.

    Speaking of Iax, do we have any reason to think he was sealed behind the doors of stone before this happened?

    Your quote doesn't really back that up. Given the other two things, I think that 'iron' refers to the metal, not to the Iron Law. It seems more likely that the Laws were named after the metal and weapons created from the metal, then any anti-fairy properties.

    Also... What 'control'? They have a different world. There's no reason to come to Kvothe's very often, and it's troublesome to do so. And here is the entire quote:

    She offers several reasons to stay separate beyond iron, but I don't see any suggestions that a roving band of that universe's Molly Weasleys are defending the border. The Iron Law is no more for that then it is for keeping clothes from becoming wrinkly.

    ....What? I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Where do you get the idea that the draccus isn't just another animal? Iron not burning it seems to imply that it isn't from the same side of things as Bast and the Scrael. And why should there be a flaw or weakness in the shapers' creations?

    Isn't it possible that the fea weren't created, that they were originally shapers, or followed the shapers, and the weakness to iron is a side effect of living the the other world for so long?

    I think something like that was said somewhere, possibly in the section where Kvothe finds the bestiary of mythological creatures, but I could easily be wrong. I may have pieced it together and assumed based on other sections, but here's a relevant quote.

    That's what I've been doing. Contrary to what you seem to believe, I don't have anywhere near enough time on my hands to piss it away calling people wrong on the internet. If I didn't want a discussion, I wouldn't have replied. If I thought everything you said was dismissible, I would have told you go go read the rest of the thread.

    That said, since this is ALL conjecture, pretty much everything is possible. It's possible that Kvothe is a faen child swapped with a human at birth, or that he's now secretly a robot created by Elodin, and the fall from the Rookery killed the original. It's also possible that this entire story is playing out in the head of a traumatized child, lost in the woods after fleeing the bandits that killed his troupe.

    Pretty unlikely though, so we'll ignore them for now.

    Pretty much all of my speculations have been discussed to death either by me or others who had similar ideas, earlier on in the thread. I recommend reading that if you haven't already, great stuff. Here's the more interesting that I remember off the top of my head, though, go nuts.

    Starting with the more outlandish... One of Kvothe's friends is a fea, walking among humans in disguise, possibly Wilem(sp?) or Auri. Kvothe used a portion of Auri's true name when he named her, or the name he used means something related to who she really is, which Elodin is aware of. Kvothe changed his name, possibly writing the original in a book of glass and sealing it in the thrice locked chest.
     
  3. songsparrow

    songsparrow First Year

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    I don't think you can assume it was only four nights. We don't know how many nights have passed between the end of chapter one and the beginning of chapter three. Kvothe sets out after the rest of the scrael only after learning something has been slaying a farmer's sheep, tearing them apart. He'd been waiting for something of the sort - but whether it's days or a couple of weeks we don't know. But while he has the piece of the scrael is the only time he's described as looking sickly, as though something vital is being drained from him, by a town person and compared to just last month. The townspeople have only known Kote, not Kvothe, and he's never been very talkative or outgoing around them. I think it is significant that PR has the carpenter notice how terrible Kote is looking.

    He also tells Bast he made sure no one kept a piece of it as a souvenir, that he's not an idiot.

    I think there's plenty of hints it's not a good idea to keep any piece of a dead dark fae creature around. It took iron and fire to kill Incanus in the story Trapis tells Kvothe in Tarbean, the only thing capable of killing him. This is a Tehlin story, so for demons read dark fae.

    I think the Iron Laws were sort of like the Spanish Inquisition. Anyone suspected of being fae, or a Shaper, were subjected to trial, testing, and death. But fear breeds suspicion and soon those who were Namers or just had knacks were also swept up - I'm referring to the Aturan Empire, where the Tehlin Church was founded. That may explain in part the corrruption in the Church and the disappearance of the Amyr, but that leads to more conjecture. At any rate,when he was arrested under the Iron Law, Kvothe was bound in solid chains of iron that would incapacitate any fae.

    Why would the dark fae want to come to the human world? Why does anything evil do what it does? it delights in causing pain and destruction. For a lark. Out of resentment at being confined to one realm by beings it considers inferior. To cause mischief in court circles. To manipulate humans for their own ends.

    The draccus is a big lizard. but the first we ever hear of a beast like this is at Drossen Tor, and that was no mild plant-eater. Draccus are shy of men, and mild-tempered like cows when not hopped up on denner resin. It stands to reason the first uber-draccus was created from a common lizard, and Iax, who was the greatest of shapers was behind it. His draccus was a fighting, fire-breathing, iron-scaled massive beast, far from a gentle lizard. And if the namers did manage to return it's mild temperament and plant-eating nature, it is still stuck with fire-breathing, iron scales, and unnatural size - so I'm not sure it's completely harmless to keep a piece of it as a souvenir, I think it's still part-fae in nature - but being mostly made of iron it would have no problem passing the iron test - tricky!

    Yes I think the fae are the shapers and their followers, but additionally whatever beings they have created - and they may have created the dark races as allies in the Creation War - certainly that's where we first see the draccus. The skindancers would be a horribly effective weapon against your enemy. And some creatures in the fae may have been created by Shapers just seeing what they could do, we know they were already out of control before the war - think of mad scientists let loose in their laboratory, no, locked in their laboratory.

    The line you quote actually is what made me think maybe most of these boogiemen are things from the fae- the draccus we are told was at Drossen Tor - I wonder if this is in Vint -Vintish people are said to fear Draugar (draccus?) and fae, The Eld, where Kvothe met Felurian, is located in Fae. So perhaps it's possible that shamblemen DID bother the people of one region during or after the Creation War, and we know in Atur they were afraid of demons, which was the church's revision of fae, especially the skindancers according to Trapis' story. Again, historically, there's usually a bit of truth behind all folklore and superstition- Arliden makes that clear when he tells how he's had success searching out the basis for other songs he's written.

    I have read through all the threads on PR's works here on the forum. I've read through a lot of the discussions on other forums as well, but haven't posted anywhere else as I wanted intelligent, thoughtful discussion. There are some points on which I feel I'm pretty solid on, but didn't get any response to at all. Others, like the river stopping the army? I think that was dismissed too lightly. PR mentions that bridge over and over for a reason. Either the army was stopped by the river, and remember fae powers are seriously less in the human world, or the bridge was in place but couldn't be crossed because it was made of iron. The best shapers maybe could have made it across the river somehow, but they didn't have the power to bring all their fighters. That's my thoughts, anyway.

    @Taure - I read Kote the same as you, but in addition keeping the piece of the scrael is draining him physically. ALso, I don't think he has anywhere near 80 years - Bast is in a panic, and I don't think he panics or turns to humans for help easily. And if the recent attacks at the Inn continue, I don't see Kote surviving them much longer unless he gets his mojo back, and becomes Kvote.

    Thanks for the replies!

    he.
     
  4. Styx0444

    Styx0444 Minister of Magic

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    It's true that Kote didn't hunt them until after he heard about the sheep being found, but he heard about that from the smith, which he was only speaking to because he was buying the equipment to hunt them.

    Secondly, the smith tells him 'I didn't know if you were going to stop by at all. Old Cob and the rest came by day before yesterday." Assuming Kote hunts them as soon as he's ready, that would imply that this is the third day since the scrael showed up, since 'Old Cob and the rest' would likely have bought the iron as soon as possible. I doubt they would have waited even a span.

    Thirdly, Chronicler shows up the night Kvothe is hunting. Assuming that his being robbed happened either on the same day or the day after the scrael appears, the timeline fits. He mentions passing through Rannish, which is later described as 'less then a day away', if I remember right. When he is being robbed, the leader informs him that 'If he leaves now, he can get to Abbot's Ford by dark.' Given the chapter title when Kvothe meets him, 'Halfway to Newarre', and Chronicler trying to hurry as much as he can, it's a reasonable assumption that this can't be any later then the fourth night since he got robbed, assuming he lost a day in one of the towns looking or a horse.

    From that, and from Kote using the piece he took to draw the scrael to him, I gathered that the scrael are attracted to each other. That's also a good reason to stop them from keeping any souvenirs, because if they attracted any scrael they would go through the town like 'a hot knife through several dozen farmers'.

    Dark fae? I don't think there's any 'light' ones. I understand what you mean, but I object to the term on the grounds that there aren't any fea who are, strictly speaking, good. Even Bast, the most benevolent fea we've seen, rejects the ideas of good and evil when referring to fae.

    But I digress. There is plenty of evidence that it's a bad idea to hang onto pieces of scrael, but unless I'm forgetting something, there's no such information about any other kind of faen creature. Comparing a scrael to a draccus, if a draccus is even a fae, is like comparing a spider to an alligator. Even if they're from the same world, they're entirely different creatures.

    I think the chains are coincidence, given that most fae wouldn't get caught, that any namer or shaper would laugh their ass off at being bound by mere iron, and that iron is generally a damn good way of restraining someone's mobility in the technological level of the world in which this is set.

    Considering that every fae sees humans as playthings to begin with, Kvothe being a special case, they do it because they want to. because it amuses them. Which doesn't mean that it isn't a huge pain in the ass, that they aren't seriously weaker, or that it isn't dangerous, or that iron isn't so generally useful that everyone and their dog has some on them at all times.

    Remember what Felurian said: They're here, but their aren't many, and you don't see them for a reason.

    I doubt it for several reasons, but I can't think of any arguments against it, or any particular reasons why not, though I think it's incredibly unlikely that it's a faen creature to begin with.

    I wonder if someone created the Catheth, or however you spell it, or if it was already there. Felurian did say that originally their were two worlds, not that the shapers made a separate one...

    That's where you got Draugar? Alright, well, I'm not sure what Pat means, but traditionally Draugar are this.

    What bridge, what river? you're going to have to clarify, I don't remember, though I doubt it helps that I just woke up.

    Also, pretty sure Taure wasn't being literal when he said 80 years.
     
  5. Sol

    Sol High Inquisitor

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    She's talking about the bridge between the University and Imre, which does get brought up a fair amount. Kvothe calls it ancient, and he and Elodin spit over it for luck. How this somehow translates to the river and bridge stopping an army during the Creation War I've no idea.

    In fact, I'm pretty sure that the Creation War was over once Lanre heel turned. I got the impression from Skarpi's story that the Namers had all but won, but then Lanre went nuts. What followed was the rebuilding of civilization. The creation of the Amyr to hunt down Haliax and the Chandrian. But the Creation War was over, the Shapers sealed up.

    Speaking of fae creatures, I'm not sold on them being Shaper creations, atleast not exclusively. Some, perhaps. Others could well have evolved in fae to their current manifestations.
     
  6. syed

    syed Supermod

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    Alot of what I wrote are made theories filled with spoilers so be careful. Full of things that may or may not happen.

    The Draugar are from barrows, Kvothe is said to rescued a princess from the undead in a borrow, there has been mentions of a princess ariel so I wonder if Auri is a princess that is in hiding? So that means there must be undead near the university?

    If his sword is from before the creation war, does that mean he now has a weapon to wound the Seven, or simply most creatures of magic? If these sword can hurt them, it would explain why the Chandrian have not been massacring the adem for properly remembering them, they might have magic and other powers but if these mighty warriors carry weapons that can harm them, they must be careful as all it would take is an unexpected blade.

    The lackless box is believed to be part of the Cthaeh, as they both smell lemony. So what in the box is either to the chandrian or iax. Also if the carving on the box is a story knot, then the archive collection of knots will hold important info. There is a theory that one of the chandrian is denna's patron, so there had to be a purpose for her to be in Yll, so some info was hidden there. Would he get a reward, for finding a way to translate a language thought to be lost. The Yll lunar calender makes me think they encountered lots of fae.

    The lackless is said to have a candle, Tamborlin the great is said to have used a canndle, so is this family his descendants, and the coin and key are there. He is said to be an enemy of the chandrian.

    The chandrian is sure to have a strong hold hidden away, where they have hidden things they have kept or taken over the years. Books thought lost and objects of power, trophies taken from their many enemies. I bet the spoils of such a place could earn Kvothe forgiveness anywhere.

    We guess that the waystone inn is in Vintas, I am thinking either alveron or lackless lands. that way if he finds himself again he can go to that lockless door to find answers. Is he not the heir to the lackless lands, as his mother was the elder sister. He is Kvothe Lackless, son of the famed arlinden the bard. Those skin walkers were said to be extinct, wanna bet what nasty creature would keep them around, i think that the chandrian are sending out the creatures that made people believe in demons to locate our hero.
    So the king of vintas died, I hope ambrose snuffed it too and alveron is now king

    The location of the draccus body is valuable info, even in poor condition, so a trade able bit of info to those of a questionable nature. devi could arrange for the body to be bought

    The tahl singers are said to have magic in their songs, the chandrian fear the singers so who want to bet they are one and the same? they are said to be able to heal, sop why would the seven fear this? Kvothe was told to go past the storm wall mountain to get the aid needed, so they could help him like the adem did.

    Do we yhink he would learn ten names, or would he just learn a couple the rest is just advertising?

    The waystones allow for short cuts acrooss the whole land, you just need to know the right paths.

    Imre is a secret Amyr city, a guess due to the name and so close to way stones.

    Shapers were banished beyond the doors of stone,. the chandrian try to return them, while the amyr attemt to keepo them sealed away.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2012
  7. deathinapinkboa

    deathinapinkboa Minister of Magic

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    I think the Ember is Lanre.
     
  8. syed

    syed Supermod

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    THe CHandrian are the seven correct. But is Lord Haliax is he just the lord of the seven, or part of them. THere is an eighth that is closely linked. He was on the vase, he did not turn traitor, he helped to save one of the cities. That guy who only has one eye is somehow linked to the seven. Was the reason he could not kill lanre, but cursed him was he was linked to him?
    SOme claim that the last seven men to cross Tehlu line were the Chandrian, but if lanre was the demon lord covered in shadows, who was the the one who was banished to the outer dark the demon?
    IAX was banished to beyond the doors of stone, Lanre found dark power and became HalIAX, so I wonder if he is now some how linked? The seven have an agenda and are searching for something, a purpose, Haliax said this clearly in front of Kvothe at the camp fire of his troupe's death.
    We guess he is searching for his death, and that it is some how linked to the moon. The moon which is vital for both the fae and mortal realm. So he searthes for the box, the flute and door of stone that iax is cast out of?
     
  9. Mock Moniker

    Mock Moniker Professor

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    I was under the impression that he simply used some sympathy for that. Much like he did near the end of NotW where he threatens the innkeeper after killing the draccus.

    He says that he encouraged the people to think it was a demon, much like he encouraged Aaron to think the skinwalker was a demon. It's the easiest thing for them to believe.

    ---------- Post automerged at 01:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 PM ----------

    Also, I'm betting on Cinder/Ferula being Denna's patron. Bredon could work out too, or it could be someone who hasn't been a major part of the story yet.

    I definitely think that Kvothe's promise to Denna on his power and his left had has something to do with his lack of sympathy and (apparently) music.

    Oh, and regarding the moons surrounding Haliax on the pottery: what if this is just reference to the fact that he can't sleep? Haliax and Iax do not have to be the same person, and I'm betting they are different.
     
  10. Sol

    Sol High Inquisitor

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    Kote can't use sympathy. The eighth figure on the vase was not one of the Seven but one of the Ciridae. Auri compares Kvothe to them. A question that's always bugged me that I've yet to see anything near an answer for: Who/What is Encanis? We know he was an enemy of Tehlu, atleast according to the church, but their view on Tehlu may be wrong. If the demons Tehlu was allegedly killing were fae, does that make Encanis king of the fae? What's the link between Encanis being kind to Kvothe in Tarbean and his father often playing Encanis to who Encanis actually is. I'm guessing misunderstood bad guy. Or something to that nature.
     
  11. Mock Moniker

    Mock Moniker Professor

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    Oh, and here's the two lockless poems



    This is obviously some huge foreshadowing. Both poems clearly reference the ring, candle, word, door, dream, and secret (thing tight-held in keeping); so even though the first poem is presented as some silly child ditty I think it actually means something.

    I think that Kvothe is the son that brings the blood, and the wood ring is the ring not for wearing. The door without a handle (which is a separate thing from the Lockless door) I think is the 4 plate door in the archives, or perhaps a waystone archway.

    I believe the wood the box is made of comes from the Cthaeh's tree. I think what is held inside it is something dangerous and locked away, but Kvothe will open the box and the 4 plate door; unleashing something terrible (like the Scrael and skin-walkers, stuff that had been locked away for thousands of years ever since Drossen Tor); or some of Cthaeh's tree's flowers.

    Speaking of Drossen Tor, one thing I caught this time around on the re-read is that Caesura isn't 2000 years old as Kvothe estimates: it's over 5000 years old. One of the owners of it died as Drossen Tor, which was before Lanre became Haliax. We know from the Cthaeh that Haliax has been cursed with sleeplessness and immortality for 5000 years, so the sword must be older than that.

    ---------- Post automerged at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:19 PM ----------

    I don't see any reason that the forsworn word is Selito's curse. Though it does seem reasonable that it would be a Name.

    Regarding the Doors of Stone: that is where the losers were locked away after Drossen Tor. So Iax must have been on the opposite side of the battle from Lanre and Lyra and Selitos. I believe this is the 4 plate door in the university, or the greystone arches. In this case I would lean towards the 4 plate door.

    ---------- Post automerged at 02:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------



    Assuming you were replying to me; Kvothe's sympathy is shown failing once. that doesn't mean he might not have done the trick with the iron drab. And the figure with the moons on the vase is Haliax. The Ciridae is the figure with blood on his hands.

    I figure Encanis might be a refence to Haliax, but that seems very tenuous. I don't think there is any major significance to the fact that Arliden played him; and I simply took the fact that the person playing Encanis to be passionate and kind to Kvothe to be a little bit of irony.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
  12. Koalas

    Koalas Dark Lord DLP Supporter

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    Encanis had a face all in shadow. Haliax's face is covered in shadows. Hmm.
     
  13. Thyestean

    Thyestean Slug Club Member

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    I am quite curious if we are going to see Abenthy again. I'm waiting for the biggest troll ever when he is an Amyr. The troupe didn't get attacked until he left, and Kvothe's parents were practicing that song for a long time, considering you just have to say one of Chandrian names a few times to invoke their wrath.
     
  14. Mock Moniker

    Mock Moniker Professor

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    They moved around so much and so often that they weren't saying the names in the same places all the time; so the chandrian couldn't find them.

    It's stated explicitly somewhere in the books.
     
  15. syed

    syed Supermod

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    Draug are undead creatures feared in Vintas, so that is where they will be fighting. THe sword has killed them before, so they can do so again.

    Does any one else think the scael were sent to find kvothe?

    WHat was kvothe promise to Denna and when did he say it, book and chapter if you could?

    Why would three phases of the moon have to with his lack of sleep? Does anyone else think the fact that the dark face of the moon, the one which is feared, just happens to be the phase of the moon left out.

    I dont think Iax and Haliax are the same, but I do believe there is a link between the two. Names have power, so to change to lanre to Haliax, when Iax is someone known to him has to mean something.

    I think there is a link to the fae and the ruh, something to do with the greystones. A son who brings the blood, what if it means more then a lackless son, but a lackless son with a specific heritage, I cant remember where but the ruh were refered to as blood somewhere i think. Brings the blood makes it sound like a son who has something else.

    Abenathy was consulted on the song, so he may have some of the detail, so Kvothe would search him out.

    If denna's patron is really one of the seven, then there had to be a reason they took her to those places.

    ENcanis is said to have destroyed cities, which makes us think of the creation war? I think he was Iax, and Haliax had shadow effect due to being influenced by him. Also due to Haliax associated with the moon, makes me think of iax, especially as his doom is linked to it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
  16. Styx0444

    Styx0444 Minister of Magic

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    Actually it's speculated that that's the case in the book. The seven haven't been nice enough to come out and explain yet.
     
  17. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    I'd like to take a moment to pay tribute to the phrase "cut flower". Big props to Rothfuss for inventing a metaphor with such vague meaning which nonetheless manages to convey so much. Shakespearean, I'd say.
     
  18. Joe

    Joe The Reminiscent Exile Prestige DLP Supporter

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    As a quick aside, Ecanus is the Enochian angel of writers, inspiring writers to completing their tasks.

    Considering how daunting such an undertaking as the Kingkiller Chronicle is, I like to think Rothfuss was being clever there--naming the most powerful demon in existence after something that supposedly demands completion of stories.

    Then again, it could just be a coincidence.

    I think it safe to assume that the naming thing has some justification. And more than just speculation. In one of the interludes of Wise Man's Fear, Bast is almost mad with worry after Kvothe names the Chandrian with their proper names.

    He says something like: "Certain things know not only when their names are spoken, but where."

    They then go on to discuss that's why it took some time for the Seven to find Kvothe's parents, becaue they were almost always on the move.
     
  19. Mock Moniker

    Mock Moniker Professor

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    Regarding the Lockless/Lackless poem stuff I posted earlier:

    the tight-held thing in keeping is not the same as "the secret", I'm quite sure it is actually just the box. Kvothe refers to it as tight-held when Meluan is about to show it to him.

    And to justify my connecting the 4 plate door to the Lockless stuff: the key Kvothe asks Meluan to let him examine is the same sort of key needed to open the 4 plate door. It goes into a circular plate with a keyhole that doesn't look like a keyhole. The lock on the box and the 4 plate door are described very similarly. I'm pretty sure the reason Kvothe asked to see it is because he wanted to know what sort of key would be needed to open the 4 plate door.
     
  20. syed

    syed Supermod

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    Tight held in keeping, does that refer kinda to a knot, like the possible story knot carved on the box.

    Scrael are said to come from the east, I wonder if they came from the door in the archives.

    is there a translation for "valaritas" yet?

    The grey stones are door ways leading to tinue or the fae equivalent. That crossroad in the Ruh story begins Fae in the name.