I received a rather strange review for PR, with this guy explaining to me in detail what "model of magic" so to speak should I use... or at least that's the mild way of interpreting this, since he described his ideas like the only possible way this things should be done.

See for yourself.

On your spell creation thingie...Personally, I think it's kinda a waste to even use incantations, after all a truely competent magi could get the same effect with only pointing their wand and ordering their effect with a minor focus. It's all a matter of training. I'm pretty sure that Harry could mearly point his wand at somebody and say 'shut up' and they'd be silenced, after all, his aura is supposedly high intensity, shouldn't be hard for him to blow through an army of death eaters with a simple scream, no incantation, no silly wand movements, just willpower and anger. Imagine the kind of power even the weakest of wizards would weild should they learn true control...no amount of tracking or shielding could stop even a basic and weak stunner cast through the proper techniques. All it takes is a Wizard or witch willing to break the moulds, find their core, and master it to cast through thought alone. Imagine the kind of power someone like that could weild...then tell me
why you should really bother with incantations after all.

Sorry for shaking the foundations that JKR has lain...but really, all it really takes is a will that can't be denied, Harry's capable of harvesting that kind of power and so are most muggleborns, they just need to really think about it.

Keep the chapters coming...and think of the ramafications of what I mentioned.

Here's my response.

There is no canon proof that this is true - it's purely your own interpretation. And while it IS true that several fics use ideas like this, there is no way in hell that I will use it too.

The reason? Simply, it's way too easy to have your character being able to just imagine something and make it happen. There is no struggle there, no problems with finding training and books, no sweat and tears invested in training. I will not have my character an arogant brat who thinks the world should bow at his every whim. Besides, if that was possible, there wouldn't be magical schools and Voldemort wouldn't have had to travel the world for 20 years to gather his knowledge.

Bottom line is, that model of magic is used by authors who like powerful kickass Harry, but don't have the patience to build him up. So what they do? They have him wake up one morning and realize "Hey, I don't have to do bust my ass practising wand movements and doing homework anymore... Because if I need something done, I can just WISH it happen! Heh, I guess the founders, Voldemort AND Dumbledore were all idiots for spending decades laearning different spells and techniques."

So, what is your oppinion on this?

Do you like fics that remove concepts of incantations, wand movement and/or wands at all and have Harry perform magic by concetrating very hard and imagining the effects (most of super!Harry fics and the second half of Hero triology)?

Or do you prefer a model where Harry uses lots of different incantations and a wand to cast spells (the canon, Shezza's fics, first half of Hero triology)?

Which model do you prefer?

 

I definatly prefer incantation!Harry to lameandboringmagic!Harry. Magic without incatations and just "imagining" the effects is in the same realm as multi-magical animagus, elemental powers, and Heir of Merlin/founders/other for me.

"his aura is supposedly high intensity" - when have auras ever been mentioned in HP?

"find their core" - neither have magical cores

Personally, I think non-verbal magic is plenty good enough.

 

I partly agree with his arguments. However I think people can only do wordless magic after they are really familiar with the spell. So its not so much as they will it to happen as they know the spell so well that the incantation is unnecessary.

 

There is a difference between wordless magic, where you imagine incantations in your head, and wish magic, where you imagine the RESULTS in your head. First one is in canon and OK by me. The second one should be shot dead, raped and used as a prop in the aristocrates joke IMHO.

 

Another round of PM's on FFN. Thought I should share...

HE SAID:

The big part about using my method of magic is the training. You have to train your magic to respond to your will...and discipline yourself to have the control needed to make your magic respond...in all actuality, to reach that point you would be no younger than 100 years old before you could even get it to work with a normal mystic.
There are rare cases, like Mr. Potter, who might be able to reach that state sooner as their ignorance of magic cans and cannots allow them greater leeway with their powers as well as their innate link to their magical core, opening up some very frightful possiblities...but in the end he probably would only get it mastered 5-10 years sooner than the normal wizard. That's the problem with the techniques I'm refering to...you can't really train them up within a short time limit and therefore they can't be used by people of a young age...not to mention that beginning the discipline and mastering the discipline are two entirely different processes
. Beginning the discipline is easy whereas Mastering the discipline is nearly impossible without sticking to it for a very long time.

I REPLIED

Erm... I'm pretty sure you're talking about some manga/anime and not Harry Potter.

I mean, yes, you could use a model such as this in HP, but then it wouldn't be HP any more. Once Harry starts meditating, doing katas, searching for his ki and throwing fireballs from his arse, he's not Harry Potter any more - he's a freaky product of manga fans, who like characters and setting of Harry Potter, but prefer manga/anime style of combat. That's not bad in any way, and I enjoyed a number of stories that portray Harry's powers like this, but that's just not my thing.

As for Harry not realizing the limits of magic, that's bullshit. He's not the only muggle raised wizard ever to learn of magic. Why would he be any more ignorant than all the other muggleborns going to Hogwarts.

 

Strangely, I can actually imagine canon!Harry trying that, and setting his pants on fire. :lol: The only way that would happen would be with a Braveheart!Harry, which I would like to see, incedentally.

But, yeah, whoever that other guy is, he's a complete idiot who is trying ot force his ideas down other people's throats. Not a good idea in my book.

 

He's not an idiot. Lots of fics use systems like this... It's just that I prefer standard HP spellwork over manga-style battles.

 

Yeah, I read a fic (can't remember what it was called) the other day which had good ideas about magical cores (or lack of). Basically, it said that people don't have a "core" of magic and that the "volume" of magic a person has can't be measured - you either have magic or you don't. Thus a person can never exaust their magic or use it up or whatever. What does differ between people is not the quantity of magic they have, but the quality or strength of the magic they do have.

 

Much prefer a Harry that has to use incantations or non verbal magic.. Im not really a big fan of wandless magic.

I much prefer the idea of harry mastering spells and then being able to do them non verbally. The idea of him thinking 'shut up' instead of the standard silencing charm is gash, It totally defeats the point of incantaions at all. and from what we know from canon, Harry has no extra-ordinary magical ability and would, like Voldemort and dumbledore, need incantations.

 

It depends. We've seen powerful wizards like Dumbles and Voldie use magic without incantations on numerous occasions. I tend to agree with your reviewer that it's all a matter of focus. If you're strong enough and adept enough at concentrating your mind and magic, then theoretically you should be able to perform just about any spell without chanting (like Harry does in Happy Red Prince more often than not especially when he just wills a Transfiguration without doing wand motions or spell chants or anything). However, most wizard and witches are too weak and uncoordinated to handle this and have to use spell words. In any case, I think the incantation adds additional power and focus to the spell and so even those who are able to avoid them will use them when they need that extra 'oomph' behind their attacks (examples: Riddle trying to Imperio Harry, Dumbledore blasting down the door to stop Crouch Jr. from attacking Harry at the end of GoF, Snape using his Legilimency on Harry).

 

Personally I think that it is about 60% learning and 40% desire... After all, it IS possible to do silent spells, but you still need either the wand movement, or the wand.

Wishing things into existence is more of an accidental magic type of thing than a learned magic one.

 

I agree with Gio, on this one. While young wizards might need the incantations and wand movements that allow the magic to work. The older more experianced wizard might not need the incantation at all or even the wand movement that comes with certain spells. I think that perhaps they've learned to focus their magic alittle more on the intent of what they wish to accomplish, rather then reallying on the words and movements of certian spells.

 

Basicly I don't decline the idea of wandless magic. In my opinion wands are tools which help wizard chanel and form their magic into specific things. To do so wandless would require extreme concentration and also a very good feeling for your own magic. So when you use wandless magic you basicly take your magic and try to shape it into the same way like you do with a incantation. So there is no way somebody can go around shooting wandless spells right and left. It may be possible to move small objekts or something similar.
Most witches and wizards will never achieve the point where they can even feel their magic, let alone shape it to their will. The only ones who may be able to achieve small feats of wandless magic are Dumble and Riddle. And to do that in the middle of a battle....

Also please dont try to use handmovements like when you use a wand, its simply stupid when authors write about how they jab and slash with their hands. Let him point his hand into the direction he wants to move his magic but don't force him to do handacrobatics.

 

Nice point about the hand movements there ghst.san. I know i've read several fanfics were the aurthor had Harry do some type of hand movement in order to produce a spel just like he would if he were useing a wand.

 

I think that decent stories can be told with any logically worked out system of magic. However, in order for the story to really be part of the HP-verse then for any power/item that Harry has, there needs to be an explanation of why Voldemort/Dumbledore don't already have access to it. Also, it really destroys immersion for me when people break out the whole "misguided wizards think they're superior to muggles when modern technology can easily wipe them out" thing, which seems inconsistent with the books.

I personally like what we've seen so far in IP's story...if only we could see some more of it.

 

Perhaps, instead of the usual cliche wishing it enough, wandless magic acts out of NECCESITY. My idea is that ww magic HARMS the user, as it shoots undiluted magic through the user's veins, and as such is used not when somebody wants something, but only when the person is in a situation of pure NECCESSITY.

 

so are you refering to accidental magic or something else than?

 

If you ignore you see that accidental damage only occured when harry was in great physical danger, and as such we can safely assume that it is the bodies' last mechanism, just like the body digests muscles and organs should it lack food.

 

Than how would you explain the fact that in the OotP, that Harry was able to cast the Lumos spell even though he did not have his wand in hand. I know it was only a few feet from him at most but still that could be considered wandless magic for the simple fact that he didn't have his wand in his hand. or Are you going to consider that remote spell casting as I've heard it called.