You know, I can't help but feel that this has turned into a copy of the "Would Harry ever match Dumbledore/Voldemort?" thread. We're basically covering the same topic: Harry's level of competence. If only there were a common factor...

/me glares at Alexx.

 

He could touch him. But Dumbledore's eyes shone with triumph because that was the moment Voldemort tethered Harry to life.

 

Yes. It's 100% canon. Voldemort taking Harry's blood undid the protection. So, almost every enchantment has a loophole one can take advantage of. For, you can push the unbreakable vow to a limit without breaking it.

Wonder if Dumbledore just offered yearly contracts to two professors to rotate every year, the curse Voldemort put would have been rendered useless.

I still don't like that scene even after a decade of reading it. While it gave Harry a chance of survival, Dumbledore was at his worst competence in the GOF with the fake!Moody, stuff with Crouch Sr and it's not like he did anything to make Voldemort take Harry's blood. Unless you spin up a manipulative Dumbledore angle where he planned for Voldemort taking Harry's blood, I see no reason for the 'triumph in his eyes'.

It's not like he did anything. If Voldemort on the other hand knew that Harry was a horcrux all along in the graveyard, now that would make stuff difficult for the protagonist and Dumbledore.

 

Genius is a product of hard work and talent, sure someone might grasp something quicker and easier but it doesn't automatically make them better.

There are very talented people who do fuck all with their talent because they can cost through life. Dumbledore and Voldemort didn't just look at a book once and go "Boom, OWLs are aced." They were hard workers. They applied themselves a hell of a lot.

I'm pretty sure there is a quote from Voldemort that says he pushed the boundaries of magic, indicating study and research, not just chucking a few spells about. I don't think Hermione was as good as either of them but she definitely was an incredibly intelligent person.

 

Yes, Hermione is SMART, but not brilliant. She doesn't have a grasp on any fundamentals; she only learns textbooks by heart. If she had the grasp, then she'd be able to make the same kind of alterations that Harry had found in Half-Blood Prince's book. Like this, it's Snape who had a grasp on fundamentals of potion making (making him into a potions prodigy) and Hermione who's a little stuck-up teacher's pet, who only wanted to regrugriate recepies from her standard textbook.

What is Hermione intrigued with? Had she invented some new charm (Snape's curses)? Or a magical item (James' and Sirius' communication mirrors)? Or took care for dangerous rare plants (Neville)? Or did anything at all creative outside of school work, for the pure pleasure of magical science (helping Harry on his various adventures doesn't count)?

Her only interest is to get the best grades. She's good at everything, but doesn't excell in anything.

Hermione is a smart girl and great student. But she's nothing special. In any way.

 

There isn't actually anything in canon that says Hermione does not have an intuitive grasp on th fundamentals. But yes, Hermione is Bookworm urned up to eleven. If theres any sideknowledge or skill thats not hard, just obscure, Hermione has it.

Particulary in Deathly Hallows.
Wards? Check.
Extension Charms? Check.
Healing? Check.

An analogy, Voldemort was good at everything and studied Neuroscience. Dumbledore was good at everything and studied Psychologie, after a failed attempt in Sociologie (but his real talent lies in politics). Hermione took every 'A brief Introduction' book the library had.

 

Sorry if I missed something, but did someone change the thread title to 'What does DLP feel about canon!Hermione?'.

 

So long as we're on the topic, I'll add my two cents by saying that my greatest problem with Hermione is that she is so blatantly a fucking plot device that she just rubs me the wrong way, not to mention that I wouldn't be friends with her in a million years, as I can't stand nagging, bitchy females (or males for that matter, I suppose).

The only reason Hermione knew wards, extension charms, or healing in Deathly Hallows was because it was require. Let us never forget that when it came to practical work in the previous books she did struggle, despite apparently having an iron clad grasp on the theory, which tells me without a doubt she was far from being a genius in magic and most definitely wasn't anywhere near being a prodigy.

 

I'm wondering that myself. Make a new thread where you can rant about Hermione, Alexx. People will come in to defend her, or not, and you can make all your points there. Stop derailing the thread.

Anyhow, I don't think the original question 'what do DLP'ers think about canon! Harry' has anything to do with his potential of reaching Dumbledore or Voldemort's level.

I can't think of a tale in Western fiction where the good guy has the same power as the main villain, and it's rare to see a hero surpass the 'wise old man' character.

Every victory of a hero over the main villain involves another factor other than pure strength and skill.

Aragorn would have gotten stomped by Sauron, and Gandalf the White was stronger as well. So Sauron gets beaten by a small hobbit with the courage and willpower to survive the torment of the ring and bring it to Mordor.

Tavi was constantly getting bitch slapped by the Vord, he would have been slaughtered one-on-one versus any one of the high lords, and Gaius was many times his better. He won through sheer tactical brilliance and the use of a deus-ex that would eventually disrupt the balance of all the furies in the world (or something like that).

Pretty much, no hero can win through becoming more bad ass than the villain. That's honestly, simply lame.

The real kicker for why people don't like canon! Harry is that he never even became badass to the level that more heroes reach, which is quite badass, BUT IS BELOW THAT OF 'THE MENTOR' OR 'THE VILLAIN'.

He got right there. Right there. But he gave it up for being generally mediocre because his personality was simply too meek to ever truly become an epic hero.

 

While I do like Hermione, I wish she had made that jump from just being well-read to being innovative like Snape was when he was her age, just like I would've liked to see Harry and Ron's basic skills evolve at some point. But that's all I'll say on that.

@Gabrinth: Going along with what you're saying, I basically see canon Harry as being like a Luke Skywalker who didn't make that crucial jump from average farm boy to Jedi Knight.

 

Never mind, lol. Misremembering Star Wars FTL.

 

Were you going to make a "jump to lightspeed" joke? Because I would approve.

 

Oh my god this thread reeks of fail.

Things you can probably establish after one reading of the book.

Harry is average with extraordinary willpower.
Hermione is better than average with a love for books bordering on author mouthpiece, so she has to be a bookworm or her ability to plotdump would be a black hole that would swallow up all of the HP universe.
Dumbledore and Voldemort are archetypal plot devices who are given character retroactively.

I honestly don't see what there is to be said, and I certainly don't think we need actual quotes or anything. Just look at the structure of the story - it's more fable than fantasy. Basically, if you love and love and are brave, you'll be successful in conquering your demons. Harry Potter is a children's novel, albeit with hints of worldbuilding which belong with more traditional fantasy novels, but no matter what direction we run in, it should be extremely easy to distinguish canon from fanon.

There's a really simple question you can ask yourself.

"Does this ability or power, if expounded, dilute the moral message JKR's trying to send us?"

If the answer is yes, well, then don't expect it to be anything other than a plot device.

 

Lol! Sauron was defeated by a Deus-Ex-Machina... *cough*Gollum*cough*. Literally. But it was nicely done, so we don't nitpick Tolkien's work.

BTW

Aragorn < Sauron
Gandalf The White < Sauron
Frodo < Sauron

 

If you're talking strictly literature then the choices are fairly limited, but they're there. The Wheel of Time's Rand al'Thor seems to fit. Beowulf pretty much was that strong. Pretty much any D&D fic where the antagonist isn't a deity will have a main character strong enough to rise up to power.

If you want to look at movies and comic books then there are tons of examples. Western fiction loves the "Rocky" character who builds himself up, surpasses his trainer, and ends up going toe to toe with the enemy and comes out victorious.

But you're right about Harry. He's not meant to win through brute strength. It's not that kind of story. But that kind of story does exist.

 

That's why Big D's WWSHD is made of pure win.

 

I do dislike Canon Harry being Dumbledore's man. I think the root cause is that I don't like to see Harry under the thumb of an authority figure manipulated to waking to his own death.

 

Would you die so all your friends and family aren't killed?

Not a huge question, just a test of the strength of your character.

 

Harry is an orphan and has two close friends. Walking to your enemies with no wand is stupid. They could have done anything to him. Harry finds out in RC Remus was watching him all along and never did anything about the abuse of the Dursleys (which Dumbledore did in Canon) and he says in the lines of 'I don't think I can ever forgive you' or when Neville is disgusted with Dumbledore for trusting and working with a man like Snape in DAaYOD. I expected Harry to have such reactions. And naming his kid Albus Severus. What was Rowling thinking when she wrote that?

 

She was high on drugs.