Would I be massively overrating Queens of Darkness, Ladies of Light by saying that the two chapters it had were more awesome than the entirety of Wastelands of Time?

 

Being honest here I never got into Dagger & Rose. I found it without DLP's help and read a few chapters and clicked on the red X. It didn't sit well with me.

But as I need to add something to the thread... Every fic is overrated by somebody. EDIT: Usually the author.

 

Oh, the two chapters that together totaled 60,000 words?

I don't say this lightly, but... yes.

This is my favorite Harry fanfiction of all time. I thought it was the most epic story of all time until Wastelands came along. It's still my favorite story.

I have to acknowledge that the 'rhetoric' critique applies a lot more to Queens of Darkness than Wastelands.

It's a very straightforward story, nothing to mull over suddenly at odd times. There's no mysteriousness or curiosity as to past events, a lot of uninteresting flashbacks.

All the formula is is piling on conflict. That's it. Making every single antagonist invincible, killing truckloads of supporting characters, the works. The mechanics of the writing itself isn't too polished.

And the Dragon-Ball Z style fighting gets worse and worse as time passes. What can you say to flying orbs of energy?

And yeah, the characterization. There's a point where I just stopped emphasizing with the Harry in Thalarian's story. Because you know that if the entire solar system got eaten up by an interdimensional demon army or whatever that the story was hinting that, Harry would still persevere. If his back got broken and his vertebrae got ground to dust and scattered to the winds, he'd keep fighting.

That's not a character you're interested in. Same thing with the Harry in the Hero Trilogy.

Wastelands' Harry is different because he does break. He does have limits, and he gives up, citing the wonderful Tessa interlude.

The Eden scene was magnificent, but now is rivaled by any number of settings in Wastelands.

To be fair, Queens was only getting started, but 60,000 words is about enough.

Quotability? Coolness? I'm not seeing any of that, and I'm the last person to criticize someone for creating well-turned phrases.

The vignettes is something you either buy at face value or don't. I don't like them either, but I've found they just don't matter. The story is good enough that Joe can indulge in his idiosyncrasies. Just pretend they're a line-break if you dislike them.

Joe's writings don't need to be defended, so this is all a waste of time.

 

And, you just demonstrated why some people are saying it was overrated.

Hint: Fanboyism, the ability to look beyond a work's flaws and see only the shining epicness.

Don't take that too seriously; it was spoken purely in jest. I know how some people get their backs up when a noob speaks critically of them.

 

Ah, I beg to differ good sir! The most underrated story is Alice's Wonderland. You cannot possibly overrate the epicness of Harry/Alice. It cannot be done.

As for the Wastelands debate, I don't think it is overrated. It might be overrated on this site. Actually, I'm pretty sure it is vastly overrated on this site, but I don't think it is overrated off this site. Quality of writing, word count, and plot quality of Wastelands do not match up to the number of reviews a story like this should have on ff.net.

Think of it this way, compare it to "Methods of Rationality" which has many more reviews, is highly rec'd on other sites, and was just barely published a few months ago, has a piss poor plot, bad execution, and nowhere near the word count needed for the 3000+ reviews it currently has. It is quite quickly becoming the most overrated story ever.

Wastelands is epic. It is probably one of the best fanfics ever written, but that isn't to say it is without problems. Anyone familiar with the Dark Tower series can see the problems are somewhat similar in nature probably due to the influence said series had on the idea behind Wastelands.

As one critic said about King's Dark Tower series, it is so epic I have a hard time believing someone would actually attempt to write such a thing. *paraphrased since I can't be fucked to look up the quote* He was basically pointing out that the problem with the story is that it is so epic that you tend to get lost in the epicness of it all, but at the same time, the epic nature of the story is what makes it so great. You can't really have one without the other.

 

On the other hand, it could be what you're interested in. Very rarely am I interested in big stories that engage all of existence, time, etc etc.

I prefer much more personal, character-driven stories that often don't include much more than a dozen or so core characters. The occasional 'epic-scene' is nice and all, but that the end of the chapter, I'd like to see how the main character grows and changes intimately.

 

That definition makes fanboyism a good thing. I said I didn't like the vignettes, and I've had moments of impatience where the writing's clearly pretentious and throwing out red herrings for symbolism.

I'd rank the order of comprehension as follows, from least to greatest:

The blindly adulatory
The critics that see the shortcomings
The people that see the shortcomings but still appreciate it for what it is.

Edit: Yeah sure, sparkles are right up my alley I guess.

 

Harry Potter and the Wastelands of Time is overrated both in its plotting and writing.

I realize that story is quite popular on this forum, however my opinion is it has diverged greatly from fan fiction, meandered down paths only fit for original works. Seems to me like the author is using Harry Potter as an excuse to peddle his own original works in disguise and it seems to work based on the loose standards expected of fan fiction.

However when judged by its true scale it is paltry in comparison to what one should expect from a published work. Too long, too nonsensical and ultimately boring.

 

I like Wastelands of Time. Yes, in it's current format it wouldn't work as an original story and Joe relies on us having a certain mental image of Harry and the cohort to really reinforce his characterization. Yes, it can lack description in some parts and it's over-the-top and epic just for the sake of being epic.

But it's still epic. It still has moments where I feel like I need to jump up and work off some of the energy that it instilled within me. It still has its moments where I feel like pausing and putting on some pounding music to make it even more epic. When Harry was proclaimed the sleeping god I almost shouted 'Fuck yeah!' because it was just...so damn awesome.

For a traditional novel, it's overrated. For a story to get your blood pounding and get your head swimming in the world that it creates, it succeeds magnificently.


Oh. By the way. The Denarian Series was absolutely perfect and there is not a single thing wrong with it and if you disagree I'll call in my fanbois and have them find you and take you all down!

 

Heh.

I'm getting alternately shot down and then blown back up in this thread. Cheers, crew - positive or negative, these are some pretty good reviews.

Let's check the score:

Haters:

Grubdubdub
Amerision
Nuhuh
turtle7 (who the fuck is turtle7?)

Ma' peeps:

Scribblerus
Oneiros
Andromalius
Shezza

Sort'a broke even there. Honestly, I agree with both sides of the fence on certain points about Wastelands. On the one hand, it may be that once again I've descended into realms too epic to matter, on the other, I think the balance (considering how the story will end) has been handled rather well.

The over-epicness might be due in part to the fact I made half this story up as I went along, and in the last eight chapters or so I've had to take things up a notch so earlier plot threads will begin to tie themselves off. If that makes any sense. Let me respond in kind:

Yeah. This has been discussed. Many a'time. The Hero Trilogy had promise, some great potential, but I missed the mark in the end. Wastelands is what that story should have been. Also this:

I'm closing in on 2,000,000 in HP fanfic alone. That's a very lonely statistic.

Yeah? I might make an effort on that after Wastelands is finished in a chapter or two. The reason that story had to hit the bench, was because I felt it was too... bland. It was falling into a trap of almost every other HP fanfiction out there. A story that just goes from A to B. I dunno. I'll be having another look at it.

Cheers, mate. This gave me a



moment.

Sparkle!? That is... fucking...

...accurate, in part, I guess. Sparkling wordplay, amirite. Some of your comments, Amer, actually mirror my own thoughts about the story as I'm writing it. That said, it wouldn't work any other way.

All the elements you mentioned to make your point - the grand settings, the powerful magic, the sparkling silver cities exploding under a rain of demonic hellfire - demand a touch of epic if they're to work at all. I've actually spent some time curtailing a lot of the epic out of this one, because if the Hero Trilogy taught me anything its that character needs to remain prominent - more so than the grandiose description that's turned you off the tale.

In all modesty, Insane!Harry is pretty fucking prominent in Wastelands.

Above all, though, the story should remain king. I guess it may just not be your cup of tea, but approaching these topics of time-travel, Atlantis, demons and all that crap, would require some grandiose standing, wouldn't it? If you're saying I went too far, then that's cool, thanks for the feedback.

It is extremely hard (read, impossible) not to fall into cliche these days in the HP fandom. I think Wastelands has dodged that bullet, for the most part, because of its sweeping scale and sometimes over-the-top style. I mean you got a guy that has spent lifetimes dying and traveling back in time, again and again and again, and the story is told in first-person. Harry's got to sound old, sometimes flowery and grand, because to have him converse normally wouldn't work at all.

So yeah, you got me on some points, Amer, but I don't think most of what you said makes the story overrated. It's more a matter of preference, I think, than anything else.

Thanks again for the feedback, though. It does me good to be reminded that I can (and do) go overboard. Forest for the trees, and all that rubbish. Cheers.

I think it will avoid the trap, Silens. The next few chapters will set up the sequel, and we're done with the like of the Atlantis side of things. I could see it falling into the trap, as well, as I said above in response to Amer, so the next few chapters are primarily character driven (I think they are, at least), so we'll see. I'll be eager to know what you think.

^This. I've learned me lesson, goddamnit. Cheers, mate.

That pun better be fucking intended!

Too right!

I think this sums up my argument against Amer again. You can't really have one without the other. It's a balancing act, the scales can tip too far (and you may think they already have in Wastelands), but it's always better to burn out than fade away.

Sparkly prose FTW!

Plotting AND writing? You may be expecting too much from mere fanfiction, buddy.

Honestly, I do have some original writings along the same lines as the themes and such covered in Wastelands, but nothing published. So peddling my own stuff? Not yet.

SHEZZA LIKES MA' WASTELANDS SO EVERY NEGARRTIVE OPINION JUST BECAME INVALID..!!!>@#

Ugh, long post is long... Basically, I reckon both sides of the fence are right about Wastelands. It can be overrated, but not for the most part, because it wouldn't be up for so much discussion if it didn't work as well as it does.

As for over hyped?

DLP is the only place I really discuss this story. FF.net and PC are the only places you can find it. It could probably do with a lot more hype and therefore a lot more exposure, but damned if I can be bothered.

I tried posting it on Schnoogle awhile back, but anyone who has tried that knows that it often feels like pulling teeth... from your dick.

Finally, sparkle!?!?!? I can't get past that, Amer, it draws a parallel to fucking Twilight:

 

Trust Joe to turn this thread into one about himself.

But yeah, I can see both sides of the argument there.

As for over rated fics? Eh, we all like different things imo. Some things others like, I dislike, some things I like ,others dislike. It's all up to the person imo.

 

The most overrated fanfiction out there has got to be The Shoebox Project.

If you don't believe me here is a definition of the The Shoebox Project stolen from Urban Dictionary.

Just because it has it's own webpage and pretty illustrations to go with it does not mean it's the best thing since the wheel.

Is Wastelands of Time overrated?

I think it's a great story with an elaborate plot that really sucks you in and is about as addictive as chrystal-meth.

But it certainly has it's flaws.

If I read another "Can ya digg it?" I think I'll spew.

The vignettes feel like those small few seconds when you have to look down in your lap while in the cinema to find the box of popcorn and you are momentarily reminded that the movie isn't real.

The reminders of The Hero Trilogy piss me off because it starts to read like a predule to The Hero Trilogy or like the two different Harry's will meet eventually (ie the cracked pedestal surrounded by dust in the latest chapter? Ways of Twilight remake, fo sho. Not to mention the white rose that went ka-blammo and Ethan Rafe The Comeback Kid).

Please stop showcasing your music preferences. It's almost a songfic.

And yet the Insane!Harry is very well done and the point of view is perfect for the story. If it was done in third person it wouldn't have the same charm it does now.

I find myself loving the idea of Atlantis, even if it is hard to get my head wrapped around the logistics of the time-warp stuff.

The rhetoric really does tie it off with a little bow. It's the polish. Yes, a lot of it could be pruned off but it does add a sense of character to it.

The writing is very good, Joe has come a long way from the fifteen year old that wrote Sword of the Hero.

The idea is pretty original and adds a bit of twist to the old second chance plotline. And the Understatement of the Year Trophy goes to...

Overall, I think that there are a lot of fanboys/girls out there that worship every single last shiny word and really do overrate it. But there are just as many people who love to hate it and there also those special few who see the flaws and the highlights and acknowledge them both.

And this is the part where you realize that everything I just said just amounts to a whole lot of fence-sitting. And now I shall distract you with this music video of Warriors of Time by Black Tide which is destined to be the theme song for Wastelands of Time.

 

Nah, I'd be in the 'haters' category if you were phantasmagoricblade. Honestly, you probably start on Epic Level 10, so anything that follows has to top that in order for it to have it's own place. Being an old fan of Hero Trilogy, I started Wastelands probably about four times, and didn't find this point everyone says there is where the story gets on an even keel. Might give it another shot, though I'd rather read the Dresden/HP cross you started a while back.

Anyway, like I said before about my hypocrisy, any criticisms I have of your writing are what I hear from Sree and Taure about mine. Though, of course, I don't enjoy the same popularity. And I'll read WoT again because Shezza came all over it and his tastes usually meet mine.

 

Wastelands ftw. It's a pretty awesome fic, the only real pet peeve I have with it is what has been stated before, Harry likes to quote way too much and there are way to many cliffhanger lines in every single chapter.

But that does not outway the awesomeness of the rest.

 

Honestly Joe, I'd rather you continue All My Love to Long Ago. Boatloads more moving, I think.

 

I'm very meh towards wastelands. It's technically good, but I just can never be bothered to read the new chapters because I know there will be some new epic event superceding the previous one and I just can't be bothered to keep up. The series of epic events just doesn't draw me in.

Also, to be honest, I think Wastelands suffers from the same symptoms as ASCAL does, its not Harry Potter anymore, it's Joe's original ideas with Harry Potter characters strung loosely throughout. Sorry Joe.

 

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Thanfiction's Dumbledore's Army and the Year of Darkness yet.

It's a decent if overwrought story, and if you like BAMF Neville, an unmistakeably evil Snape, and lots of magical torture scenes, you'll probably love it, but Thanfiction basically just squeezes drama out by dialing the Angst up to eleventy. When in doubt, write another death or torture scene, wrapped in grand themes of Ultimate!Sacrifice! and Totally!not!gay! male bonding. (This becomes even worse in the sequels.)

What makes it overrated is that the "DAYDVerse" now has its own fandom, with people writing DAYD fan fic, holding conventions, calling Thanfiction "the commander," and shit like that. Which became epically wanky when it turned out that Thanfiction was actually a notorious con artist.

 

Says the author that has his own wiki for his universe... OH WAI-

I kid, really - for the type of work that it is, the Alexandra Quick stuff is maybe a little overhyped, but not to the extent of some fics, and certainly not across the wider fandom.

I'll disagree with you when it comes to Dumbledore's Army and the Year of Darkness (I think I did mention it earlier), because I think a lot of the hype Thanfiction did himself, rather than having people follow after him. But then again, I haven't seen any of this DAYDverse fanfic or following either.

 

Not my wiki, dude. Someone else started it. I'd be tickled if my stories were well-known enough to be considered overhyped, though.

Although Thanfiction did do a lot of pimping of his fics, I'd say DAYD is overhyped precisely because it's taken on a life of its own, even now that he claims he's "retired" from the fandom. You really should read some of the Fandom Wank threads -- they are hilarious.

 

Wastelands is... weird. I just can't get inito it no matter how hard I try. It just doesn't feel like Harry Potter and while technically good, it's nowhere near griing enough to male me read an update.

Sorry Joe. Truthiness is always best.

Alexandra Quick annoys me as it's everything I don't like, but done surprisingly well.