Like, sure, if you REALLY think Jesus is portrayed on your toast, that brown blob will probably look like him to you.

But other people are just gonna see toast for toast.
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Guys, did I break Newcomb?

I think I broke Newcomb.

 

Okay so there's no accurate vote count, sadly. The one after shadow votes tom shows him as the first vote on tom, but he most certainly was not. (Unless I'm totally blind?)

Shadow votes here:
WitchHunt 9

There are NO votes between that post and this votal:

WitchHunt 9

So I think Shadow was likely the 6th vote on tom and just got accidentally placed first, unless i'm completely missing something. And even without the vote count, just go look at the thread at that point, it's way after we all decided tom was the concensus lynch, and it was at a time when tom was clearly, clearly being lynched.

That means that when Shadow voted tom, tom was far and away clearly going to be lynched.

So let's look at Shadow's posts after he got "cleared":

Spoiler

He spends his time questioning both Fluff and Tom equally, as well as saying he suspects me, and then shading Umami, and then shading me for calling Umami's post townie

And then he finally votes tom at a time when everyone else has made it clear they are lynching tom
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As I just showed, he juggled between suspecting both Tom and Fluff, only making a choice when the rest of the town had already decided.
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It's not about have to or not have to. It's just that if your partner has become the clear concensus lynch and the entire town wants them dead and it's obvious that no one but them is getting lynched that day... then yeah, you go along with it?

Tom doesn't "acquire towncred" by lynching Shadow day 2. Shadow was such a concensus lynch that no one gets credit for it, it's just you will certainly lose towncred if you defend him, so yeah, you go with it, don't you?
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Like why are why giving people credit for pushing people after they became a clear consensus lynch?
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Or giving someone any credit at all for what they do while fakely greenpeeked?

You think Shadow would've gone after Fluff there?

You were FPSing! Shadow would know that if he's a wolf!

He could rip into Fluff and then you'd say "Actually, I lied, I didn't peek Shadow. But man, look at the way he tore into fluff there, I bet they're unalligned"

Considering Shadow equally spread his suspicion on both Fluff and Tom, that's actually exactly what he'd do as a wolf thinking the oracle claim would be retracted and not wanting to spew, isn't it? And then vote Tom once Tom already has 5 votes.

 

That's a decent case but I still wanna do my claim strat before we lynch anyone.

 

It's not a case so much as it's dismantling your case. I'm not saying "Shadow is a wolf for those actions". You said "Shadow isn't a wolf for them" and I'm saying "He could be"

Like I said I'm on standby for the claim strat but everyone in this game is super towny and then one person is not only super wolfy but looks like they were being saved by Jari on day 1 and tom conveniently never voted them day 1. It feels like a no brainer to me.

 

I'm talking about shadow lynching tom.

Votes don't mean everything, especially in a game with pure majority lynch, and there is a large amount of time for shadow not to give equal attention between fluff and tom. By your own admission tom wasn't suspected for a majority of the game. You're telling me shadow decided to be passive after getting cleared and not wanting to move the day away from tom, who was just now getting suspected?

Yes, I think shadow would have gone after fluff. You make it sound like the tom lynch was already set in stone, but it wasn't. Again, you said that the tom lynch was not something considered until the middle of Day 2. What makes it so guaranteed that shadow has to lynch tom?

He has time. If tom and shadow's play are anything similar shadow would know how at least to attempt to move a lynch away. He did not.

Dels I don't understand why you're forcing an attempt that shadow must have to lynch tom. He is in fact, a player in the game that everyone wanted to hear after he got a new lease on life. He doesn't have to lynch tom at all. When he votes tom, yes, he has to lynch tom. But before then, is it not free real estate for him?

 

I'm not? I'm just saying that Shadow voting tom as a wolf is a thing he could do. Not a thing that he must do. And anyway, the vote came when tom was already clearly the lynch, so the vote doesn't mean much.

 

Hey, Dels?

I'd super appreciate it if you could consider, like, other people. At least a little.

 

And as for the rest of it:

You're saying shadow would have gone after fluff if he was scum.

And I'm saying, not necessarily.

Is it not possible that Shadow would think "That fake peek is FPS, if I go after fluff hard here, cobalt might take it back, then I'll get lynched anyway and it'll be clear I'm not with fluff?"

Shadow did question fluff, so he absolutely could have been setting up for a fluff vote and/or hoping the town would pick up on those questions and suspect fluff themselves. It's not like he did nothing with fluff.

I'm just saying that you are acting like Shadow would not have played how he did as a witch, and he could've. Juggling both fluff and tom feels exactly like what a witch who knows their townclear status could be retracted at any time would do.
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I was already not doing that before the Shadow thing.

It could be Kai or Mplus or Fluff basically. Or a claim is lying. I have no further thoughts and it'll be even harder for me to get any with this mental barrier in place.

 

So then, if you're pretty cognizant that you are tunneling Shadow, would you mind letting thread consensus decide our next move?

 

Is it not possible shadow is a villager that wants to lynch a witch?

Dels, what you're saying here is that witches shouldn't actually do anything except lynch other witches because otherwise they're going to get lynched anyways.

If the biggest problem here is fluff spew I have no idea what the problem is because a quick skim of tom's ISO shows that fluff is already spew cleared.

Dels. uh.

Are you saying that mislynching villagers as a witch is too bad if it goes wrong, hence we should always lynch witches?

I know I'm not getting through to you with this and I'm sounding obstinate but Dels, you are advocating for a very strange mindset for shadow and I do not understand it.

 

Eye roll. I'm not tunneling anyone. This is the guy that the entire game was happy to lynch 2 days ago. I'm just stuck in thread with a) the only person that townreads him and b) the only person who wasn't there.

And of course I'm letting the thread concensus decide our next move. I have one vote. I've placed it. Others can join or not. I'll claim when the town has decided to follow that plan and/or when it's my turn. Nothing else for me to do.
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Sure it's possible but I'm not looking at it from that angle. I townread every other person in the game and/or they have good claims and/or they had crucial votes on Jari.

Shadow looks like scum not only by PoE but by how he was treated by Jari and tom day 1.

So when we examine his day 2 behaviour, it's not "does this make him a witch", it's just "does this rule him out from being a witch", and the answer seems like a no to me since we can't prove what he'd do or not do.

No, I'm arguing about a very specific scenario where the potential witch in question was fake redpeeked and where their partner was the concensus lynch.

Sure, valid point, Shadow may not have to be concerned about fluff spew because if tom gets lynched instead, fluff is already spewed town. But what if Cobalt retracts the claim and then Shadow gets lynched day 2 and town goes into day 3 with "well fluff is spewed town now because shadow pushed him, so let's vote tom"?

No I'm talking about this specific scenario where the potential witch in question was fake redpeeked and where their partner was the concensus lynch.

No, I'm just advocating to not read too much into a) voting someone who was already the concensus lynch after they became the concensus lynch and b) judging the behaviour of a witch who knew a fakepeek on them could be retracted at any moment

 

I mean, I thought Shadow reacted exactly as town Shadow would have in that scenario.

I'm LITERALLY the one who came up with that plan. You don't think I had my eye on whether or not he would react like I thought a witch would react if I could just take it back?

Shadow did not react like someone who knew I was lying. At all.

 

Okay then if you want to change my mind argue that, gimme the quotes that were townie and explain why they weren't fakeable. I read the posts too, I just looked at them again. Newcomb called them underwhelming and I ultimately agreed they were sort of middleground where he expressed sentiments but didn't necessarily follow through. We'll see what Newcomb thinks now. Just because I disagree with any "here's why Shadow would/would not have pushed fluff/tom" arguments doesn't mean I won't read an argument for why he was townie.
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Or don't, don't feel you need to argue anything for my sake. No pressure either way.
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And also you might wanna wait and see what the rest of the thread thinks before you even bother trying to argue it with me anymore

For all I know the whole thread will come in and agree with you and say Shadow is town, and then you don't need to convince me of anything because my vote doesn't matter

 

I wouldn't want to just sideline you because your vote is inconsequential in that particular lynch. That isn't fair and isn't conducive to a decent town environment.

I'll consider all things and try to better explain my perspective.

It's late though, so another time.

I would like to start with a Fanatic claim though.

 

Yes, we know. >_>

If I'm the fanatic, I'm just waiting to see if the whole town wants it, since Newcomb and Disquieted didn't seem certain it was the best idea and then you broke Newcomb.

If I'm not the fanatic, same thing really.

 

For what it's worth I'm gonna give it a very hesistant stamp of approval given that there is now a distinct lack of fakeclaims available with the Oracle confirmed thrown.

 

Livelist since it wasn't in SOD post:

@Vaimes
@his fluffiness
@Cobalt
@Newcomb
@Manasi
@Disquieted
@Dels
@KaiDASH
@shadowlancerx
@Umami
@M Plus 7
@muzjik

Dels, as far as I'm concerned, the Fanatic should go ahead and claim according to my plan. Disquieted is in a townclear slot and has picked it up, and sees the benefit in it. One of Newcomb's only mechanical issues with it was witch fake claims, which I thoroughly explained was not a likely scenario due to my Oracle gambit. Vaimes is the only other really clear person to weigh in on it, and I have yet to see his reaction to literally everything I've posted this phase but I'm sure he'd be on board.

Fanatic, please claim.

 

Votal 3.IWantYou

Kai (2): Newcomb, Umami
shadow (1): Dels

 

Hm. Well, out of everything we've got from this, I do agree that if you're town, the witches seemingly rolled Oracle and tossed it aside. Though I'm still not sure why they wouldn't lie and counterclaim...? I'm tired now but did you explain that?

 

Yes, because counterclaiming me doesn't necessarily get me lynched if I can just retract and explain, and it also outs them to me because I assumed Oracle was the witch throwout role and they knew that I was assuming that.