I didn't think it died, I went off line on posting because of other threads, but it didn't seem to slow down, welcome back by the way.

 

Hey, do wizards have any form of artillery because if they don't, then thats another advantage of muggles. Now that I think about it, what about a navy, While this might not be a war changing advantage, it does give many advantages in Britain considering it is an island.

Thanks Helltanz

 

No navy in canon, no artillery either, least not in the Harry Potter Magical world.

 

Dementors and vampires and giants etc are all part of the magical world therefore are apart of the fight. Do you guys even read the first 10 pages before even coming in here and talking your mouth off?

 

The problem with assessing the strength of the fidelius charm to muggle attacks is that the second most prominent use of it in canon was botched by JKR.

The secret that was protected by fidelius in OotP wasn't "there is a house located at 12 Grimmauld Place," but rather, "The headquarters of the OotP is at 12 Grimmauld Place." This shouldn't have made the house invisible until Harry was let in on the secret. Bellatrix, for example should have still known that the Black ancestral home was located there.

And I agree with you on the unplottable but still there point. Although the bit in canon that had Grimmauld Place squeezing in between the other two houses suggests an existence on another plane or dimension. Cute touch by the author, but it undercuts the authenticity of the world she created.

This strikes me as a double standard.

Yes, dementors and vampires are part of the magical world, and would be involved in the front. But so too, muggleborns are part of the muggle world. Yet the possibility that they might side with their parents/siblings/muggle world rather than the wizards has been ruled out of bounds.

And before you say "muggleborns are wizards, and therefore part of the wizarding world," they are from both worlds. When they enter Hogwarts, muggleborns don't disown their parents, siblings, grandparents, muggle friends. And muggleborn students return to the muggle world during summer break.

Can't have it both ways, in my opinion. If vampires are resources for wizards to call on, then those muggleborns who side with their families and country should also be resources to be called upon.

And then there's the question of what side the goblins might collaborate with.

 

Umm, No I don't think so. Once you are discovered as a Wizard/Witch they are apart of that world and not the other. Do you honestly think a muggleborn would ever wanna go back and live as a muggle? Even Hermione prefers Wizard kind. Anything that is apart of the Wizarding world is usable. Just like anything apart of muggle world is usable.

 

Since it has been debated for 11 pages I am not going to read them all but just state my opinion. One thing is nuke's, you seriously believe they can detect multiple nuclear warheads (as most missles carry 2-5 KT-MT range loads) and put up a shield/stop them before they hit? The minuteman missle carries at least a high KT warhead that was built to destroy cities. I hold alot of doubt they will be able to see it coming , let alone make anything that would stop a KT blast. NORAD can't even take a bloody modern nuke now and it was designed to take a russian nuke in the general area. (1-10 miles I suppose)

Second is numbers, they are outnumbered somthing in the range of like 50 million muggles to 20 magical people at the very least. The military number standings are around 20-30 million including fringe groups world wide. I think the muggles would account for themselves well since we don't fight within 20 feet of each other most times. I'll take the M1A2 at 1,500 yards with a canister shot for that group of wizards there thankyouverymuch.


Last part is defense, is magic not just simple energy? This leads me to think that standered military EMP protection should work as I doubt magic spells have the same amount of energy as a EMP wave from a 20 MT nuclear blast. Remember the russians developed a 60MT nuke, I'm sure we still have a baseline of at least a 10MT nuclear device in mind when we protect our stuff.
(EDIT- For another note you can't develope counter-measures against nukes if you are nuked before that. Magical people are also, shown by cannon, to be retarded. I hold no value on their ability to hold off creative people trained to take down small corrupt governments like the MoM.)

 

We have agreed this is a Wizard Versus Muggle as for talking my mouth off, I have been here since page one of this thread, so I've read through so I know what's going on.
Hermione had no friends in the muggle world.

 

Well then let's just start dropping asteroids on them, shall we?

Anyways, with regards to the Fidellus charm, I was under the impression that it was an /illusion/

And here's why. If it really were shunting the house into another dimension, they wouldn't likely be able to see out the windows. And then there's the fact that, oh, earthquakes.

Or rather, you need to consider the plate stresses from having a section of the crust moving distances in excess of what the entire continental plate moves per year every couple hours or so whenever someone walks into a Fidellused place.

And that's a lot of fucking stress.

Now, I could consider that it might be some manner of folding space, so that to anyone else it just isn't there. The issue with that is that, yes, it /is/ still there, and there'd be minute evidence, especially at the boundaries.

If you're shunting it into /another dimension/ then you have a shitload of issues, not the least consisting of what happens whenever it emerges from that dimension, as I've mentioned above.


Another strike against the whole 'shunting into a different dimension' is the whole fact that only people who have been told 'the blah blah is located at blah blah' can see the house. I think the words used in the books were "Balooning out from between 11 and 13" or something along those lines.

So then one has to ask, what happens when someone who hasn't been told about the location of the place watches someone who has go into it?

Well that's a bit difficult. If it's an illusion or spatial fold of some sort, (and I'm leaning towards illusion given that the person who hasn't been told about it WILL NOT see it even though the first does), then the person watching will probably see the person going in vanish, and get a headache. If he's a muggle, the muggle repelling charms will kick in, and he'll forget about it.


Now this brings me to a possible use of the Fidellus charm, or at least a close variant.

The Platform Nine and Three Quarters Portal. And for that matter, the portal into Diagon Alley. Now, I would suggest that these locations are protected by an advanced sort of illusion rather then a spatial fold, because of the issues presented with folding space. While wizards en masse are certainly able to do such a thing, there would be all manner of visible distortions, especially from a distance. Illusion, though, is a bit easier to deal with. with a powerful enough illusion, platform nine and three quarters could easily have been separated off from the rest of King's Cross when it was built, and no one has ever noticed.


And even if they had, they probably got themselves obliviated.

But now I'm getting off topic. Personally, the major point for 'illusion' and against 'folding space' is the fact that it rains in Diagon Alley.

 

Why are they only part of the wizard world once they're "discovered?" Because you say so? What about summer break at Hogwarts....they go back and live with their muggle parents in a muggle house, and can't do magic cause they're underage, but they're not part of the muggle world? Right.

And yes, I can imagine many reasons why a muggleborn would want to go back and live like a muggle. One in particular....Umbridge's ethnic cleansing/genocidal purge of the muggleborns in DH.

Then there's the question you didn't address. It's one thing for a muggleborn to prefer living in the wizard world. It's another to stand idly by while your parents and siblings are killed in a war.

Oh, and don't underestimate the power of patriotism. Muggleborns don't turn in their British passports when they enter Hogwarts. A few of them might care about Queen and country.

 

Bonus points for that, gj. But consider the sheer volume of the things, if they were to attack in massive pack mentality. The dragons in Reign of Fire were able to do so via rapid growth and rapid breeding, their sheer numbers overwhelmed anything thrown against them short of nukes. Then toss in all sorts of other creatures, like dementors, etc, that could freeze opponents in their tracks. *shrug*

And nah, it's not scary or weird we're talking about it, this is DLP after all.

 

Obviously the real solution is to monitor the astronomy institutes heavily, then when the next major asteroid is due, gather every wizard on the planet to the closest place on the planet to the asteroid and have them all summon it. Once it's confirmed entering the atmosphere, they all porkey out to their removed/from/spacetime secret conclaves and have the next couple million years as the planet recovers from the extinction event.




what do you mean I killed off all the food/magical species/everything they need? It's not like they need those things?

what? They do? Why don't you people tell me these things.

 

This actually makes me wonder about another thing in regards to the fidelius:

What about someone who's walking/driving down the road looking for one of the houses, looks at the numbers, and notices that there's an odd gap between number 11 and number 13? That is to say, wouldn't someone in that situation say, "10, 11, 13...wait, what? 13? What the hell happened to number 12?"

The only "realistic" solution to that question (at least, that I can think of) is Muggle Repellent logic. That is, the charm forces the person to forget about it and focus on something else (in the above situation, what they were doing before they noticed the discrepancy).

 

The problem with that is when looking at it on a map you would notice, Military planner goes, hmmm, goes back checks records, hey there must be wizards at that house.

 

I've always considered bringing dragons into the Wizard/Muggle side a bad move for the Wizard side (to which I belong). Dragon's are undoubtedly cool - they're dragons, man - but they really would be massacred by modern technology. Killing large, relatively slow, hot targets (and high up in the air a dragon would be hot, even if we go with the spit venom/catch it on fire idea) are what modern technology is best at. If missles can hit a jet zipping alond at whatever fast speed they go at, it can definitely hit a dragon.

Plus, even if the ratio is 10 planes for every dragon killed, the Muggles are the winners. Dragons could never have had a large population, being huge carnivores that are fiercely territorial, and they are an endangered species (Charlie works at a dragon habitat/reserve/whatever). Guess how many airplanes there are?

Creatures like the Dementors would have their usefullnesses, but not huge, highly visible targets like dragons or giants. Bringing these creatures into the debate is playing Wizard weaknesses against Muggle strengths (simple animals against missles and 300 bullets per second).

A lot of people are seemingly arguing from the position of non-http://forums.darklordpotter.net/showthread.php?t=8412 type of magic. Example is JCCS's post:

His error is in assuming a) magic could not provide that infinite energy, and more importantly b) magic is energy. That issue needs to be resolved. Do we go with Canon magic (see link above) or some arbitrary Fanon-magic. If the latter, we need to define that system's limits.

----

Now, on-topic. I firmly believe wizards would win, but this is actually a hard scenario to figure out.

First step would be to confuse the Muggles. This is actually easier now than it ever has been before.

0. Obliviate all world leaders 'in the know.' Absolutely no Muggle-Magical contact whatsoever. Use government propagando to impress the seriousness of the need to not go into Muggle areas onto the common people.

1.Destroy/incapacitate the oil field and oil retrieval equipment. I don't mean merely disfugure oil rigs, I mean totally vaporise/Vanish/destroy them. Cut off any and all supply to fresh oil resources.

Then go after the economy. First, destroy the NYSE, and whatever the equivalent in other countries is.

2. Wait. Let the Muggle world sink into confusion and economic regression. Above all, do not let one single wizard be captured. This should be incredibly easy, but have double and triple safeguards against the slightest chance of misfortune.

Note that nothing has happened that would make the Muggle governments fire off nukes at each other.

3. Find out where all the nukes are. Liberally use the Imperius and Legilimancy here. Find them all - don't let a single minister/military government official be 'interviewed' - in secret, of course.

Also in this phase, plot the location of every large-scale power generating station in the world. Target specifically power plants that feed energy into the nuclear missile storage facilities, large cities (especially capitals), and nuclear generators.

4. Strike swiftly, and at least twice. The first time, take out all power plants, steal/Vanish/destroy all nukes. This cannot take longer than an hour. Do the power plants first. Then go a second time. Re-check to make sure everything is destroyed, kill any Muggles that have frantically come to investigate. Secrecy is still extremely important.

After this operation, keep your forces on high alert for any signs that you missed some nukes (although it should be almost impossible for this to happen). If reports come in that you have missed some, FIND THEM NOW! and flood the area with wizards. That missing nuke needs to violate entropy.

After this is where I'm stuck. You've taken care of missiles. The lack of oil has quickly led to a dramatic cutback on movement (this takes care of any danger from any potential biological reprisals). World-wide, economies have collapsed, because of the oil, and also because of the loss of their central banking systems. The government has been robbed of its most powerful attack detergent, nukes. Power stations are out world-wide, and far too damaged to be repaired within at least months.

So far, so good. You've used your strengths (stealth, infiltrations, immense personal power) against the Muggle's weaknesses (centralization, dependence upon oil, dependence upon electricity). Many of the less stable governments have collapsed, with more stable governments like Western democracies barely retaining control, and even them impotent before the sheer mountain of problems facing them.

However, now you come crashing into the Muggles' main strenght: population. You have them cowering before you (or at least they would if they knew you existed). Now your problem is, how are you going to kill them all? The wizarding population is not big, and a bare fraction of that small number will be doing the actual killing (Aurors, Hit-wizards, the like). Its going to take a long, long, long time to kill them all if you have to say Avada Kedavra over and over and over.

So, you need to be creative. A disease seems to be the most popular way to mass-kill them so far, but this has its problems. If there is a 'magic gene,' how will you engineer this virus so that it differentiates between the extremely minute (genetically speaking) difference between Muggle and Wizard. Would a wizard's magic make him immune? If you do try to engineer a virus, how are you going to do that? Can wizards? Prove it. Can Muggle technology do it? Maybe, but you run into a lot of problems there (you're a probably computer-illiterate wizard, trying to do something with a foreign technology that Muggles spend all of their youth studying for).

How about that Fiendfyre spell that whatever-his-name (Crabbe/Goyle?) casts in the Room of Requirement. If he, a horrible wizard can cast it, it can probably be upgraded - cast it on one end of the city, when it reaches the other side, all that's left is charred corpses.

What about the large rural population. How will you kill them? How will you find them? What if they just dig holes in the ground and hide? Country-wide detection spells can be cast, but its uncertain if a spell like this could be configured to detect Muggles (I think it's highly possible, but hasn't been used much because it would detect billions of them).

So yeah. Any thoughts on how to get down to the nitty-gritty of killing upwards of five billion people would be helpful. Keep in mind that it has to kill people faster than they can breed.

----

This has taken a while to write, so I'll probably be behind the times.

ADDITION:

Lol.

 

One thing about bullets versus shields:

Dresden files had an awesome bit about that. Ramierz makes a shield of basically acid goo that slowed and broke the bullets into hundreds of tiny particles so by the time it got to you, it's lost most of it's speed and mass and would bounce harmlessly off your skin.

As for the nukes, I'd say quickly kill off a some world leaders of nations with nuclear ability, Imperius a few remaining world leaders w/ nukes and make it look like their countries did it, start a war, nukes would then be launched in concentrated areas. While they're distracted, go start massive wildfires in the farmlands while you're going around Fideliusing storehouses of nonperishable food.

Let them fight it out for a few years or so, taking out a few million. On top of that start a holy war. Remember it only takes a few religious nutballs to start crusades killing millions.


I merged in the other thread. No idea why there was two of the exact same thing going.

 

Er... I guess either the thread moved a lot faster than I would have thought, or I just didn't see that it went on for 16 pages. I posted to somebody's comment in page 4.

:Facepalm:

 

Nefar two things, no government even with magic could ever be effecient and coordinated to pull that off.
Muggles loose, whose making the food, wizards starve.
Though the fiendfyre is a good idea.
As for your point Midknight, at least you adressed the food issue, but you wouldn't be able to stock pile enough food, though your nuke idea works.

 

Look 2 posts above. It's still there, I just merged two threads that were talking about the exact same thing.

Does it say in canon that wizards eat muggle food? Considering how ignorant purebloods are of muggles, they'd have to have their own food stores independent of thousands of acres of farmland nonmagic folk use.

Edit: And you wouldn't want to kill them all off, you'd want to have a nice manageable size left over. Reveal yourselves to them later on, saving them from whatever means you inflicted on them to start with, so you come out to be the savior.

You need them for muggleborns and to keep the gene pool nice and non-stagnant. You can't keep going around knocking up 3rd cousins and wonder why squibs are at an all time high now can you?

 

Who would tend the land, purebloods wouldn't, any way food cultivation is probably the likes of Malfoy think muggles are good for.