@JustBlaise:
Good pic. Where did you find it?

 

I dont even know really, just google 'fiendfyre' and click 'image results'

 

Now, I'm not exactly sure if this has been referenced before in this thread, but this debate brings to mind a fanfiction story I once read a while ago.

"In Light of Silver Memories," by Taliath.

The chapter in question is Chapter 4, which I've linked to here

Now, I realize that the story is a work of fanfiction, but I do personally believe that most of the principles I've quoted from the story are capable of being derived from canonical elements, but I admit that's debatable.

But that's the fun of it, I suppose, =D.

I'll quote some of the more memorable sections:

Legilimency, or the Mind Arts in general, really, seem to be perfect for gleaning any sort of information at all from Muggle military/political hierarchies, aside from using an Imperius Curse - just look him/her in the eyes. Any wizard could use invisibility, disillusionment, Polyjuice Potion, or any other methods of concealment for obtaining information. Not only would this derail any electronic surveillance capabilities the Muggles would have set up in places of importance, but is a relatively easy feat to accomplish, and wastes little resources on the wizard's part.

It might've been redundant to bold that entire thing, but I suppose you get the point in this paragraph. Specialized wards to transfigure incoming projectiles of a specific matter/velocity profile could handle all incoming things like bullets, tank shells, perhaps even missiles, if the parameters were specified. If the Egyptians in canon created ward structures that lasted thousands of years, and if modern wizards in canon have such specific parameters to sense blood sacrifices, caster intent, and presence of certain objects/people, then such a ward described in the fanfiction wouldn't be too improbable.

Apparition to escape incoming missiles prior to notification via proximity wards seems viable as well - it'd have to be set up very, very far away for any wizard to get suitable notice time, but definitely plausible.

The notion of using the Killing Curse to kill an entire battalion seems farfetched to me - there are far more destructive spells. Fiendfyre, Explosive Hexes, Neville's failed potions in a cauldron, all spring to mind.

Magical shields for protection, the armor derived from magical animals for secondary protection, and the ability to heal oneself with a wand are definitely ideas that have been explored in canon. Even the simple Protego has been used to separate physical and energy-based attacks before, and given canonical evidence of far more specialized shields for different situations, magical shields could indeed be used for generalized protection. Next, armor derived from magical animals definitely seem viable - dragonhide-based clothing has been seen in canon before, and is known for being magically resistant as well as being nigh-impenetrable to physical damage. Healing is definitely allowable too - and for those who don't possess enough medical skill, pre-prepared healing potions could be held in stock on their person.

Muggles do seem to be dependent upon infrastructure to function properly - metal and concrete are easily surmountable obstacles to a combat trained wizard. Transfiguration could remove a door-shaped opening into any structure. Elemental attacks and specialized curses would render Muggle-made materials and protections worthless. People-centric charms that could people to sleep would render large patches of a nation harmless in an instant.

Muggle leaderships in hiding aren't even protected either - basic Point Me spells can find just about anything, and that's all we know about. Presumably there's an entire advanced set of spells and enchantments just for tracking - otherwise Obliviators would be hardpressed to find their subjects, the Ministry would have a hard time determining where incidents of Underage Magic use occurred, and Dumbledore wouldn't be able to track events using the silver instruments in his office.


And that's just a single wand, controlled by a single wizard, like this Harry says. If a single wand has such a huge multiplier effect, the wizarding world's small population puts them at a much higher pedastal than one would believe if you were to consider their surface appearance: a mid-Victorian era society.

 

There is an old joke in economics:

Two economists are walking down the street. One sees a dollar lying on the sidewalk, and says so.

"Obviously not," says the other. "If there were, someone would have picked it up!"

This of course carries something to absurdity, but it underlies a very important principle--to distrust what appear to be 'money left in the table' situations.

I made this argument before, but I'll restate it. If wizards could have subjugated muggles, they would have done so already. This is also true for all people saying that wizards in HP don't take magic to its full potential.
It would be irrational not to do so, and thus impossible in the long run. There are no 'animal spirits' here. If they haven't done so, it's because there is a reason they wouldn't have been able. I don't have to guess what the reason is, but there has to be one or more--such a disequilibrium simply wouldn't be sustainable over centuries.

 

The answer to both is that wizards are lazy. Most of the small population are ordinary people, and ordinary people don't want to have to constantly live in a state of extreme responsibility and tension. Think about it: e-peen aside, if the entire world knew you had supernatural powers, they'd try to study you. Your response could be allow them to do so, control them so they couldn't harm you, or hide yourself. Of the three, the last is obviously the easiest path.

On not using magic to its fullest potential: no, they don't. But to stay with the lazy theme, they use it enough. Even the Weasleys, who are somehow poor, don't lack for food or shelter.

EDIT: I recommend Taliath's story.

MORE EDIT:

We see no evidence (I think) that dragon hide is all that much tougher than leather. Certainly nothing that suggests it is bulletproof. Magical resistant yes, but bulletproof no. I think it would be safer to stay using shields. Although, if you really wanted protective clothing, you could just put an Inpenetrable charm on your robes or something.

 

Natural Gas is oderless and colourless. It also burns.

Wizards can conjure and transfigure.

 

From what we have seen in HBP, wizards carry alot of command over muggles. The wizards hold alot of sway over muggles if they can obliviate their leaders on a casual basis.

There is no need to engage in a pointless war with the muggles. Wizards are pretty much already at the top of the ladder. If they can arrange for muggle leaders to forget to call whenever it suits their desires, then they can most definitely keep the muggles in check. They don't need anything the muggles could give them.

In a way, the muggles have already been conquered. The only reason the wizards aren't taking all the spoils would be that they don't need anything the muggles would provide. They don't need their technology, because they have alternatives.

If they feel the need to acquire something from the muggle world (the knight bus, wizarding wireless) they do so, and upgrade the devices. The muggles are already conquered, and the wizards have established a deceptive facade.

 

I don't get it.

That's... strangely true. They certainly have control over Muggle heads of state.

 

Thank you, Reyhkt; you've outlined it perfectly.

It would never reach a 'Wizard vs. Muggle' stand-off, because wizards wouldn't let it get that far. They don't need to know about projectiles or missles or how to conjure explosive gases; they can just make muggles not know they exist, or not want to attack. This is like having a 'human vs. ape' debate; apes could, in theory, break a human into a bunch of pieces, but it would never reach that point because humans are on another level.

 

Except we've seen what happened with that, with Grindelwald. He was taking over the Muggles, but then he was stopped. By other wizards.

You seem to be under the impression that all wizards are morally bankrupt beings who will do anything for conquest and dominance, and will do something just because they can.

Not only do I feel that the wizarding world possesses moral values that prevent them from doing this - and stopping other wizards who try - but as has been said above, even if they didn't have a moral factor stopping them, they are lazy, isolationist, concerned about their privacy and view the Muggle world as inferior.

Even if they were morally okay with conquering the Muggle world, they would still have no motivating desire to do so.

 

Besides, I *really* believe that you can't get the entire world human population to agree to commit racial genocide. Some large percentage of countries would absolutely refuse to be part of this, and would provide sanctuary for those being exterminated.

I wouldn't be surprised if many Ministries have established catastrophe proceedures for large-scale evacuation of the population to pre-arranged havens.

Could a spell target extra-atmospheric observation posts and satellite-borne weapons? In general, the spells we see are all line-of-sight, and geared toward single targets or small groups.

 

If spells could not be cast on objects/places that cannot be seen, or distant from the wizard, then covering the entire 209,331 square kilometers of Great Britain with the Taboo spell would take a very long time, even with Apparation.

 

I think that what a lot of people are in agreement about is that the magical energies that wizarding kind wield are indeed capable of smacking Muggles down, if that's truly what wizarding kind wants.

But...

We could go back and forth all day and all night, arguing the various scientific-slash-psuedoscientific principles regarding the concept of technology versus magic... but ultimately it just comes down to whether the wizards want to.

I agree with Rehykt's view on this completely. Whether a wizard's magical powers are empirically superior to Muggle technology/innovation can be debated endlessly, but the wizards have already won.

Now, "won," can mean different things to different people. For some it means that one side has completely destroyed another in combat or some other type of pissing contest.

But for others... and it's the definition I'll take up on this issue, it's having deliberately eliminated the circumstances and need for combat in the first place.

Sounds like win to me.
​

 

God dammit, why can't you guys just let this topic die?

 

Hide? Do think for a moment.

Most wizards, including Dumbledore and the Weasleys and even Hagrid, consider muggles to be some sort of amusing, inferior being. Only a few want to deal with them, let alone kill them. They laugh at all the muggle technologies. 'What will Muggles think of next!?' they ask with a grin, thinking of how easily they could do it all with a spell.

Mr. Weasley finds muggle technologies amusing simply because they are such a novelty. He didn't make that flying car because he thought wizards need to 'catch up with the times'. He made the car fly because it was amusing to tinker with all the cool, primitive, little devices the muggles made.

It is like us humans paying money to go watch an ape. They are doing things that we humans have been doing for centuries, but it amuses us greatly to watch them use their crude tools and devices.

Wizards aren't hiding. They simply don't want to have to deal with muggles wanting magical answers to their problems. Most wizards simply don't care about muggles. Other wizards hate muggles. The rest still don't particularly care, but wish to stop muggles from being killed on a moral standpoint.

You wouldn't let someone go shoot all the apes, would you?

 

I already said they aren't hiding. If you don't understand what I am saying by now, then there really isn't much more that I can say. All I can do is point to what others have said and what I have said. Wizards don't care about muggle problems, but the good wizards also don't want to be the cause of muggle problems, so making the muggles forget about them was the easiest option.

 

I'm to try and be simple in my argument here because I'm not sure neither side would win in a war. And before you start thinking I'm a fucking retard just think, I mean seriously think about it.

Who would win in a war:The Wizarding World, or the Muggle World. Think about both sides carefully. Yes, the Wizarding World at first would a certain upper hand. And it's justified that they would have the upper hand at first. Muggles know next to nothin about the modern Wizarding World. They live in secrecy nearly all the time so no one really knows much about witches and wizards in general(exept for muggle born parents), and what people can read from old history.

And muggles would have no knowledge of modern day spells at all. Sure, muggles could question muggle born parents, but even then there knowledge would be very limited compared to a trained witch of wizard.

A witch or wizard could completely hide themselves effectively with a Fidelius Charm(If your powerful enough). So hiding would be very simple for them.

And think of a matchup against a wizard vs. muggle. Who do you think would win? A wizard who can do amazing things or a muggle who can only really phisically defend himself.(But if that muggle had a weapon it would be a different story)And there are a million of other things a witch of wizard can do that a muggle can't but I'm to lazy to wright them all down.

Now on to muggles version of things. There would be no dought a war between Wizards and Muggles would be horrific, but muggles aren't at a complete disavantage.

Now if what JKR said is true then the worldwide population of the Wizarding World would be about 5 million at the MOST. Now compare 6 going on 7 billion to 5 million. A big Fucking difference in terms of population. So muggles have the population advantage all secure.

Now lets compare technology(if your refering to a modern day war). Wizards who don't even have electricity or understand it, to muggles who have nearly mastered it.

Muggles who have computers so powerful that they can run a small country if they wanted to, to Wizards who use tradition files, and have no understanding of computers.

Muggles who can now go into space(but I'm sure Wizards could if they wanted to). So theres 2 things muggles have wraped upopulation and air superiority. So if muggles want to bomb something from space(and I don't think Fidelius Charm would hide them from a satellite) they very well can without difficulty, and completely fuck up some wizards while there at it.

Nextly, muggles have very well trained armys with advance technology way higher than the wizarding world. And from the books it seems like the wizards don't really have any type of army exept aurors which are more like peace keeping police than soldiers. Hit Wizards seem to be the only professional killing force wizards have.

Also, and I hate to say it but one major difference in a war between Wizards and Muggles is religions. Even with my dislike of religion in general, I can't deny the power they have over most of the worlds population. All it would take is the Catholic Religion(and I have no problem with the religion or people in in. Exept for their molestation issues which seem to be everywhere. Oh, well I new I couldn't deny disliking the religion. But back to the topic at hand.) All it would take is for them to make a religious crusade against the Wizarding World and you have yourself a war that wouldn't end until the complete eradication of one side.

There's so much more I can put into this but my hands are getting tired of typing so I'll get to the end of this.

Two words is all it takes to fuck up the Wizarding World. NUCLEAR BOMB. Have the muggles find a large group of witches and wizards and kiss there asses goodbye. If worst came to worst I think the muggles would nuke the whole planet before letting it fall into wizards hands anyways.

So who do I think would win in a war between muggles and wizards:Muggles.

People who support wizards have exellent points if the war was fought 50 years ago, but nowadays muggles would be the victor in the end of the bloody war. Numbers and technology alone would enough to win it for the muggles but religion is the nail in the coffin for the Wizarding World.

And if seems like I copyed what someone already said in this thread I appologise. I only read the first two pages of this topic before typing this, so I'm sorry.