1. DLP Flash Christmas Competition + Writing Marathon 2024!

    Competition topic: Magical New Year!

    Marathon goal? Crank out words!

    Check the marathon thread or competition thread for details.

    Dismiss Notice
  2. Hi there, Guest

    Only registered users can really experience what DLP has to offer. Many forums are only accessible if you have an account. Why don't you register?
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Introducing for your Perusing Pleasure

    New Thread Thursday
    +
    Shit Post Sunday

    READ ME
    Dismiss Notice

Wizarding advancement

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by Erotic Adventures of S, Jun 23, 2007.

  1. nonjon

    nonjon Alumni Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,129
    Err... what? Are you kidding? There's an infinite amount of things it cannot do. What about self-spelling wands? Wasn't that a throw-away line Ron or someone used?

    But even still, there's this generally fanon idea that EVERYTHING magical has already been discovered, examined, understood, and categorized as good/evil light/dark, etc... When canon has clearly shown that they are constantly improving things and making new stuff.

    The Weasley twins have been inventing new prank/candy combinations for years. Every year or two, broom design improves and the latest ones go faster than any older models. Wolfsbane is a relatively recent potion I believe. And even just in the last century or two, only then did Dumbledore and Flamel discover the twelve uses of dragon's blood.

    It's not like there aren't new discoveries to be made, new magical species to be studied, new spells to be created. Invention out of necessity is far from the only way things have improved. Mouse traps work fine, but people are always looking for a better way to make them.

    No, the issue to me is the wizards' intentional ignorance and fear of muggles (and therefore they are missing out on muggle advancements and arguably falling behind -- the basis for the fanon complaints of stagnation).

    But it's not like "Okay, everything but these five things have been discovered. We can stop now."
     
  2. Snarf

    Snarf Squanchin' Party Bro! ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Messages:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Forty-Six & 2
    High Score:
    1,832
    Those aren't new discoveries though, Nonjon. What you're talking about are advancements. While I agree with you that their are more then just five new things to be discovered, I also thing Taure has point in that the wizarding world has discovered most of the things that are discoverable in our world.

    Maybe in the desert or deep in the sea their might be new magical creatures, but that doesn't mean that we are looking at a whole new list of discoveries in the next hundred years.

    The only spells I see being created are those out of necessity or out of laziness. A cure for crucio insanity and things like it. They aren't about to make a guard against the killing gaze of a basilisk, their's just no point. Of coure laziness is always a factor, but that's mostly just them wanting to improve pre-existing items so they don't have to work as hard.

    What advancements have muggles made that wizards don't have a counter for? The cell phone has corrupted our world today and turned most of the youth into idiots using words like l8r in class. The computer was created out of necessity in the first place, we just improved on it because we wanted an easier way to communicate and transmit information. The Wizards don't need that, having items like floo and owls who can carry large packages along with letters. Kill two birds with one stone, pun about birds intended.
     
  3. The Fine Balance

    The Fine Balance Headmaster

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    1,065
    As of yet I've seen only one indication of a magical means to mass produce complex magical devices. The basic reason why muggles have advances in the past few centuries has been due to Industrialization; or more specific, mass production. Until wizards can come up with some way to mass produce, I don't think you can expect muggle likes advances from them.

    Has any thoughts been given to "how" exactly these mirrors were made? All I remember is that the Maruaders made them but then, they were extraordinary kids. I imagine it was audorous, time consuming work which your average adult could not replicate, and those who could, the skilled personnel, would demand high wage for mindless repetition, which would push up the prices, and if you count profit margins of the manufacturers, it would probably make the mirrors too expensive anyways.

    Basic counter to the mass production argument are brooms.


    From when in the world do they have cars? Mr. Weasley was charged with magical alteration of a muggle object. There is no indication that there is any sort of mass ownership or even general awareness of what a car exactly is.

    Intersteller Portkey Service. /swt

    Apparation requires concentration to be attempted properly and usually there is a source of error anyways, be it a few meters or 1.6 kilometers.

    Portkey requires a charm. And the general indication throughout the books have been that stronger the magical reservoir, the stronger the spell. And I only rememeber seeing Dumbledore cast that particular spell. (Although that might also have something to do with the Ministry restrictions)

    Another example that magic is affected by spatial consideration is the summoning charm at the first task. He had to concentrate hard. And hogwarts was just a teardrop away compared to say mars.

    (Excuse any cannon inconsistancy; it's been ages since I've even thought about HP)
    Ps. I posted prematurely cause this laptop has been shitting me a lot by shutting down unexpectedly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2007
  4. deathinapinkboa

    deathinapinkboa Minister of Magic

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,284
    Location:
    Democratic Republic of The Congo
    Why do Wizards need mass production? There are not many of them, and there would be no market for mass produced goods.

    Olivander makes enough wands to sell to every single eleven-year-old wizard and witch in the country.

    Madame Malkins provides enough robes for what seams like the entire population.

    If seams to me like the only industry in the Wizarding World, is the Ministry of Magic. That is where almost everyone works, aside from the few shop keepers in the Alleys and Hogsmeade and the ideal rich like the Malfoys.

    I wouldn't be surprised in the Wizarding World has actually suffered a resent regression. We've heard Mcgonagall make comments about how Wizards couldn't help but bread with Muggles, because there just aren't enough Wizards and Witchs left.
     
  5. nonjon

    nonjon Alumni Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,129
    Now you're just quibbling over the language. Making a broom go a bit faster is clearly just an advancement. But discovering a new way to charm the aerodynamics and having an adjustable charm depending on the size of the rider? Would that not be a new innovation? Even on his chocolate frog, it says Albus and Nicolas "discovered" the twelve uses for dragon's blood. So within current wizard's lifetimes they've just unraveled the ways to use dragon's blood. What about the magical uses for blast-ended skrewt semen? That's an illegal crossbreed Hagrid may have created.

    Or if you want a muggle basis, they were looking for smaller and more compact ways of storing information and reading it off punch cards. Mechanical sensors for on/off of whether a spot was punched or unpunched. Miniaturization was capable of determining that binary of on/off into extremely small magnets, which led into concepts like magnetic memory and hard disks for storing that information. Is the computer just an advancement of punch cards or one of the most revolutionary creations in the last century or so?

    The cell phone is another example you mentioned. Yes, the masses of idiots abuse them, but some of their advantages are big. It gives parents instant access to talking to their children. It gives people instant access to calling for help. We never see people stranded at the side of the road and having to walk thirty miles, unless they also can't use their cell phones. GPS for location is another. Would not the ability to have a device do these things without a complicated understanding of magic beyond a simple point-me spell? Not counting the limit to how much magic one can do. Sure Dumbledore could have cast some convoluted darkness spell on each of the lights, or maybe Peruvian darkness (a later advancement/discovery?) powder could've worked. But he had a hand-held device that made it even easier.

    I know we feel like we've discovered every species on this planet sometimes, but there are still creatures deeper into the abyss than we can reach, there are still birds of paradise in the jungle no one's ever seen before (yeah, I liked Planet Earth a lot)... and that's purely discovery of the elements/bits on the planet. Not the discovery of ways to use, utilize, and combine bits.

    And I'd think magical species could be even harder to find. Invisibility and magical camouflage imply there could be millions of crumple-horned snorkacks still waiting to be discovered.

    You could argue either way on whether the magical world is done with discovery, or has advanced most things to a saturation point but canon has nowhere near enough evidence to make a determination with any certainty. But the cliched fanon idea of stagnation isn't without basis. It's still just a judgment call based on extrapolations and personal interpretations of what canon may or may not have implied. A call that TEAOS is making for purposes of his paper.

    I just think arguing that the reason there hasn't been advancement is because there's no need to advance is way off base. And actually supports the idea of stagnation. All the magical methods of transportation and communication have room for improvement. Owls are limited by the speed of their flight, not to mention relying on an occasionally snooty other animal who may not want to help. Floo and portkeys are uncomfortable, flawed (mispronunciation problems), leave you dirty, or difficult to balance.

    It's human nature to want to improve and advance. And we will never have it all figured out, magic or not.
     
  6. Gabrinth

    Gabrinth Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2007
    Messages:
    1,582
    Location:
    Cary, NC
    The wizarding world has no reason for muggle devices when they have spells and magical devices to do things for them. In a few places they are behind us muggles but why does that automatically mean that they are stagnant?

    When Harry was with Mr. Weasley in the fourth book the man said that they had to find a place to build the Quidditch Cup Colloseum and they had to place charms on it. They were able to build that huge colloseum in the space of one summer so that definitely means that they are ahead of us in construction abilities.

    And why would the Ministry try to take in cellphones when they already have floo powder? Whose to say that the Ministry isn't paying someone to try to advance floo to work with lighters that wizards can carry everywhere?

    And they have no need for cars and planes when they have brooms, floo, and apparation. All three magical devices are faster so wizards have no reason for the muggle devices. And the Knight bus is only used by wizards who can't use the other devices like a muggle would only ride a bike if they are poor and don't have a car.

    And we see advancements all the times in the books. Or at least the advancements that a teen wizard would see. Brooms are always being improved and Fred and George made their own joke shop bussiness that makes all sorts of things.

    And new inventions usually are made because of neccessity or a great want. People want more brooms so the broom companies make them. People want to cure werewolves so a huge advancement- the Wolfsbane Potion- is made. People want to live forever and someone makes a Philosopher's Stone. People always write in fanfiction that a bomb could destroy Diagon Alley in a flash but wizards, after they knew that the spell was needed, could most likely easily make a spell that could protect places against explosions and even nuclear radiation.

    So, to sum up what I am saying, the wizarding world is not stagnant at all. It is just not going to make muggle inventions mainstream when there is a possibility of a spell or a magic invention doing the same thing just as good if not better.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2007
  7. Vegemeister

    Vegemeister Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    260
    Location:
    Texas
    There is a critical difference between the summoning charm and portkeys. The summoning charm physically moves the object to the summoner, while portkeys transport the user directly to their destination. Furthermore, even if distance was a factor, the trip could be mad in multiple jumps.

    Edit: Sorry about the delay. This was in response to post #23, but I wrote half of it and went to the store.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2007
  8. Erotic Adventures of S

    Erotic Adventures of S Denarii Host

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    New Zealand
    The idea that there is nothing left to invent is total stupid.

    I intended to show that ever since Hogwarts invention has increased not decresed which I think we all agree on. Wolfs bane is not more than 20 years old and is one of the most advanced potions ever.

    The past is not greater than the present and wizards are improving. It's just the have no GREAT need for anything so invention is more of a past time for those who feel the calling to make something new than a need to have something to help you.
     
  9. Kardikek

    Kardikek Groundskeeper

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    Messages:
    372
    It all depends on what's the truth in this matter is it not? I mean we hardly get a fair view of the global magical community in general through the adventures of a misfit brittish hero.
    It is obvious that advancements and discoveries, merely semantics in my opinion, are being made. There is proof for this as many have noticed, what we don't know however is to what extent.
    We don't know the social structure, taxation, public and private fundings to research, social stigma to achieve or not achieve excellence in the fields of progression. Neither do we know the laws involved however restricted or free. Copyrights? And then as this is the magical world we would have to account for endless amounts of magical trouble in regards to information sharing, vows and whatnot.

    For example, say this magical mirror for example was invented by some old man a few centuries ago. Say due to the climate of the time he was forced/coerced/bought into a contract that forbid producing the mirror and selling it for commercial purposes because people in the owl/floo industry were afraid they'd loose galleons. Ridiculous? We know powerful and rich people seem to be able to bribe the men in charge with pretty much total impuny, even at this day and age. And say the marauders found some old book or such documenting the creation and made an semi-illegal copy, just that no auror would be arsed with the paperwork because frankly, nobody gives a shit anymore unless it comes to the attention to some hotshot in the floo business again.

    I mean personally this makes a lot more sense to me than just arguing that wizards are backwards idiots who've lost their human drive for lazyness.
    Oh and another point, the muggleborn and muggleraised students of Hogwarts as viewed by Harry, especially Harry too is driving me utterly mad because they're idiots. At an age where children in general are stupidly curious, with a new magical world opened up to them and what do they do?
    By the time they finish their education at Hogwarts it seems as if they're seamlessly integrated into the magical society along with all the pureblooded mentality involved. I don't expect pureblood wizards to know of all the modern muggle advancements but the muggleborn and raised better. Not even ONE of them has ever though; "Hey, that is pretty nifty, now how about if I added x magical effect and improved it's function by tenfold!"
    I swear, being introduced into the magical world makes whatever logic you had dripple out of your ears.
     
  10. Erotic Adventures of S

    Erotic Adventures of S Denarii Host

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Sorry for the bump but DH brough up a few points.

    The Hollows prove that there is still a huge area for improvement.

    If we believe Dumbledores idea (And it does seem very likely) that the hollows were invented by the Perval brothers and not given by death then it shows the huge leaps that can be made.

    One guy with maybe a bit of help from his two brothers invented or modified a cloak than never rips and never fades. Even if you just apply those two bits to normal cloths you have then made sure you will never need to buy cloths again.

    A superpowered wand... sure this idea is going to be terrible in fanon but again it shows there is a lot of room for improvement.

    The death stone is probably the most impressive. Something no one though possible and it was done by a few guys a couple hundred years ago.

    Not to mention the fact that we now know for sure that goblins have their own form of magic that they wont share with us (and vise versa). imagin if we did share, all the new skills that would open up.

    It just goes to show the huge areas of innovation left to tap and the innovation that has happened in the past.
     
Loading...