TinyHunt #8

dichotomousCreator · Mar 8, 2018

Vaimes said: ↑

I'm not really a good person to ask because I was more focused on the scum agenda. Everyone feels super town when I'm mafia :V
Click to expand...

Well that's the problem I'm having with lynching him in a nutshell: This feels like his play there

I mean, he's been a little less aggressive pursuing the deathtunnel this time? OTOH it was on ME so :v

And there was the thing where he bounced off me onto shadow but like

that seems counterproductive for scum unless a buddy was under threat at the time.

...I'm kinda talking myself into doubting myself here >_>

I think I'll shelve it for tomorrow. He might make a good Priest check for N2 and be worth leaving alive on that basis? Or we could just lump him and do that with Jari? (I am seriously annoyed we can't lump them both, they're practically the same person as far as my actual read on them is concerned i.e. metatown mislynch fodder that I don't quite trust on the merits but also am pretty sure scum will angle to mislynch if they're town)

shadowlancerx · Mar 8, 2018

“How did Newcomb pick the order for his big post?” /s
~~~~
One day I’m going to actually play with scum!Newcomb (for real, not when he’s intentionally acting like scum) and have a real baseline here, but gosh darn it that post isn’t a ridiculous amount of effort. While I understand why he uses post numbers instead of quote, I’m going to vent about how frustrating that is to deal with on mobile.
And I am disappointed in the sections on me and Tom; me because it feels kind of empty and very surface, especially for his top scum read. Tom because (and Tom already said this but) he spends a lot of time talking about things that really aren’t AI for Tom IMO.

Lump Newcomb
I want this.

So I have a stupid gut read on Tom as town here. While I think him making a web read is totally NAI, the fact that he came away from it disappointed is very much a town marker to me. I think as scum he’d play with it until it felt good, and as town he’d play with it until it felt right.

“But shadow, you just called Newcomb out for reading NAI things from Tom as AI”
Yes I know. That’s why this is a gut read.

~~~~
Re Waco case, The quick version:
His play regarding the Lump has been very much an attempt that was destined to fail, and he made it the focal point instead of also doing other things (TM). When I called him out on this, he snapped out at me and threw mud at me for it, even going so far as to call out OMGUS when it was the other way around.

If we aren’t lynching Waco, is Lump him for the Priest check.

Gemma · Mar 8, 2018

Newcomb said: ↑

Gonna run through some updated thoughts on where I'm at.

tom - Tom this game is a bit like producing maple syrup - you have to distill down like 15 gallons of sap to get a little bottle of syrup. This isn't necessarily indicative of either of tom's games, but for me, it does hit a critical mass at some point and starts feeling like more of a wolf thing.

I somewhat like the automerge in #147 where he gives a thumbs up on the votes, then asks about the copypasta. It's something that he could notice as a wolf, sure, but on balance it feels more like if he did after he'd given the thumbs up, it would have been more self-depreciating, or more... laughing at it, or something. Flat asking feels like there was some skin in the game in terms of what the answer was. Definitely a bit of a thin read. A stretch, for sure... partly it's that starting from his first post and reading up in tom's ISO you eventually start to feel kind of antsy to find something you can call alignment indicative. Which doesn't feel like a super good sign.

Noting that the self-negation of specific meta reads on both Mal in #174 and Jarizok in #178 read a bit like a kind of funhouse mirror version of fighting consensus townreads. Like, noting Mal is trying too hard, then following up with it being NAI, and liking the premise of dC's read but negating the application kind of... yeah. Tom plays his cards somewhat close to the chest, but it doesn't feel quite right to be this outright ... idk exactly what the right word is. Not dismissive, but like... short-circuited.

I think the mindset behind #212 is a little concerning - the way he's talking about it indicates that he's very aware of not just his lump campaign, but how his lump campaign is being perceived. how seriously people are taking it. Not to say a villager in a vacuum wouldn't notice or wouldn't care about those things ever, but as someone who won the Lump D1 as a witch, you're pretty... aware of how it's going, and thinking a lot about the implications of winning it and how it would look to do or not do things regarding it. Fairly minor ping, but a ping.

#218 fonti/tom w/w hailmary for postgame cred, get at me. (The alignment is a somewhat serious read, but a w/w fonti/tom world would mean that most of the people pushing on me are villagers, which is something I just really don't see as likely at all, so it's more like a "break glass in case of emergency" thing).

I think the swipe at Jarizok in #244 makes plenty of sense given his stated read trajectory there, and moreover it's a read that I agreed with in realtime as I was reading along. I also kiiiiinda think wolf!tom puts a little spice on that post, maybe just a little, rather than leaving it that bare. #247 is another mindmeld-y moment. I also think that on balance, it's not quite as easy for wolves to accuse villagers of not believing their pushes. Especially since like, a town!Delphine here generally comes off as pretty... genuine in what she believes. Come to think of it... tom/fonti/Delphine hail mary for postgame cred, get at me?

I hate myself for wanting to townread stuff like #267, because I know wolf!tom absolutely /can/ make posts like this, I just can't help but almost like... be jealous that he can be that free and easy as a wolf. I'm gonna say damn the torpedoes and give him townpoints for it anyway. "Pure", for lack of a better word. By contrast, I kinda hate #294. It sounds like an attempt to sound light and carefree without, like... having that tonal pureness. "I don't know if that's even a read" is something that reads way more to me like something you'd type and think sounds like something town might say.

#340 is the kind of post I associate with tom's towngame - it's taking initiative to do something, and finding a somewhat unique angle. If tom had been making post like this a lot more, I'd feel a lot better. But this is kind of the essence of the maple syrup thing - tom's posts where he's like... following a lead and talking about it so are so damn sparse.

Agree with the trajectory of #373 and the previous two tom posts towards dC - it feels like a smooth, organic progression and makes plenty of sense given dC's flightiness this game.

I like the understated frustration in #490 and feel like it makes a little more sense coming from town!tom.

I dig #604. It's exactly the kind of nuance I look for when I'm reading tom - notably, he's looking at Jari, bouncing off something fonti said, but also trying to worm his way into what saying that thing he agreed with means for fonti. It's a multi-angle kind of read that reads genuine to me.

The whole series of posts around #618 are something that I'm very consciously steering clear from. They're something that I might have townread someone for before - like, the freeflowing setup thoughts and what they indicate about how someone's approaching the game mechanically always come, from me, from a "scum are tuned in to the mechanics because they have to be" which turns out to not actually be true.

...lol

Noticed this; especially the timing/non-description of some of tom's votes. Wouldn't mind an elaboration, would accept "I'll talk about it at a later date."

I'm coming out of this ISO feeling worse about tom, tbh. There are some town markers to be sure, but weirdly enough most of them come /after/ I took my first look at him and came away kind of mildly liking him. It's a body of work thing. It really is noticable when you read his posts in ISO how little actual content there is. Which, like I said at the beginning, is not out of tom's townrange, but is concerning.

I'm more convinced than ever that tom is the ideal Lump here. I could use a softcleared anchor to bounce ideas off, and if he's a witch this is probably going to be a somewhat hard push to focus down on like, D3-D4, would rather just clear it up now.

dC

Went over some brief dC thoughts last night. The general concern I had with how flighty/bouncy he's been compared to how much he's repping a kind of "I'm aimless, what do I do" thing is mostly me being confused more than it is thinking it's indicative of anything, is the side I'm coming down on.

Wondering what this was in reference to.

#450 strikes me as a bit odd coming from someone who just went "oh, you know what, I was townreading Mal too easily" and voted him right after fonti's case. Like... asking Vaimes if fonti's case was bad. Not, "do you think it was bad" but "was it bad", like he didn't super have an opinion of his own. Actually strikes me as a bit TWTBAW, since, like... surely that would occur to you as you're writing it that you just voted that person and it looks bad to ask if the case on the person you just voted for was bad?

#777 Going to reiterate the "if it's performance art, it's good performance art" thing I said about dC earlier. If he's a wolf this game, I think he's going to be pretty easy to catch because this style kinda lends itself to just hitting a brick wall. On balance though, I think he's much more town than not.

Jan

Kinda want to skip Jan in the interest of time, because the odds of me lynching him D1 approach 0%, but I'll do at least a quick skim to re-verify my thoughts here.

I like the thought process behind #208. I'm not sure I'd agree with the conclusion that Mal would have thought about the situation that way, but I like the way Jan's trying to get into Mal's head, and specifically the way he's knocking down what he sees as a bad w/w read, which is something I associate more with Jan's towngame.

Speaking of possibly bad associations, let's talk #410. I used to have a meta read I was tooling around with, like, maybe a year ago, that town!Jan's jokes were funny, and wolf!Jan's jokes were kinda forced and/or flat. I mostly discarded it, probably because it's kind of a shitty read that depends on my mood as much as Jan's, but this post reminded me of it. It's the kind of... laconic humor that I associate with Jan's towngame. Still a shitty read. Kind of personal bookeeping because if Jan is in fact town I might pick that read up from the trash can and dust it off and kind of remember it with nostalgia, consider making it part of my repertoire, then chuck it back in the bin where it belongs because it's still a shitty way to read someone.\

In the context of Jan scumreading Jarizok, #436 is remarkably even-keeled and inquisitive. Super hard to see that at a partner, and in the world where Jan knows Jarizok as town, I have a hard time seeing Jan being able to make a post like that without it coming off as at least faintly mudsling-y, and I'm just not seeing that here.

Not gonna link these posts, and not gonna talk about them that much, but the Jan/Gemma spat I think is a) pretty obviously not w/w, and b) more indicitive of Jan's towngame than not, especially with the way he backed off. Reminds me a bit of Jan v. Sotek in the WH Invitational.

I'm gonna cuts this one off too, as I can already feel this becoming a bit of a long post (insert "understatement" joke here). I came out of this feeling still pretty solid about Jan, though not as solid as I thought I'd be feeling, if that makes sense. There's enough here that I like, and little enough that I dislike, to write him off for D1, easy. Don't take this read to the bank and hardclear him, though.

Jarizok

Not going to go super in depth on my read of his initial posts, but the point I made about the overall vibe feeling like he wanted to be seen as active but was casting around for things to talk about and just kept pivoting to things that had nothing to do with this game, stands. It's even more obvious when you look at his posts in isolation, FWIW.

117 definitely has a TMI'd Mal town flavor. The read is just so... ephemeral. "Believing in someone's intent to solve" is the easiest and most hot air thing you can say about Mal's posts. Like... it's Mal. Can you seriously imagine Mal coming in and going "imma just shitpost this game, glhf". He always has or represents the intent to solve. It just reads as Jari scrambling for a reason to townread Mal's morewords.gif. #139 expands on that, but the actual meat of the post has zero contrapositive flow - no indication that there's any thought about what Mal's new/concise style would look like from a wolf. Like, the progression is basically Jari: "Mal is serious and looks like he's gonna do things." Waco: "Mal always looks like that." Jari: "He's laser focused and concise, though, and that's what I think the natural evolution of that would be." Which is just like... o... kay? I buy that somewhat as a thought Jarizok legitimately had, I do not buy it as a reason to throw Mal a townread.

Still think that #349 is a pretty classic way that wolves talk about unconventional / hard to read players. It's born of laziness, I think. Yes, villagers can do it, but wolves have to fake so much shit anyway, piling on having to read someone who doesn't really fit conventional mafia language and thus isn't able to be just kinda... "shit out a bunch of mafia lingo, that's town right?" and actually make a coherent read on a Seppel/tom-type they already know is town is just... hard. Thus you see a lot of wolves just going the kinda vaguely baffled /shrug "tom is tom" type reads.

Villagers are more likely to see such players as a challenge, wolves just want to avoid them, for the most part.

#413 features a townread on Waco that's pretty much impossible to dispute, discuss, or do anything with, making it Super Useful. Like, if you're actually going to make a read that Player X has an alignment-indicative content/gif/content ratio, you'd better be ready to come at me with some hard data because brother that something zero people are going to go verify. The "Fonti reading Mal opposite to myself is par for the course" line I also take issue with. It's inserted into the post with no preamble or analysis, just kind of "random comment" style. It just... there's a lack of any indication at all that Jarizok either a) cares what this mean's about fonti's alignment or b) cares what it means about Mal's alignment, or c) is thinking about the situation critically.

I do somewhat like #416 and #420. I think that in a wolf!Jarizok world, the realization that he didn't really answer the question is something that he just shrugs and ignores, or if he says it, then tries another attempt at answering. The middle ground at "oh well at least I said something" reads fairly tonally pure.

#556 combined with #602 is extremely incongruous. Read 602 in the context of Jarizok talking to someone he is currently voting for. Especially this line: "
Considering that and the fact that I’m the easiest lynch to get this game, why waste thread pushing me D1? There’s people you can actually read here, and you can get the lynch on me any day?"

Yeeeeeah.

Coming out of this not really moving the needle on my previous read. Would lynch.

@DC, if you're still wondering why I don't want to Lump Jarizok, the answer is that I think he's too mafia, and not middle ground enough (plus the thing I said earlier). Lumping a witch isn't a bad deal, but you still lose the double vote and the Priest to it. The ideal Lump is town that would have gotten mislynched. If Jarizok is town, he is an ideal Lump. I just don't think he's town.

Vaimes

Here's my read on Vaimes:

Note: do not read if you're not Vaimes

Vaimes I love you and you're so fun to play with but you cannot imagine, in the depths of my soul, how sick I'm getting of this particular tune with you. Get. on. my. level.

I appreciate the things you've been saying about my play this game, kind of running as an intermediary or whatever, and you've been generally accurate and correct.

But.

I think that if I can get to reasonably certain town on you without you straining a muscle all over the thread, you should be able to get to reasonably certain town on me without me having to do the same. Which I am doing, currently in this post, and if you wolfread me for one second after you read this, lolyou. I haven't rolled wolf in over a goddamn year, you know I can't make this post as mafia, now step off.

I need you to be able to read me as town without me having to try so hard. It's stressing me the fuck out and saps the fun out of what was supposed to be a lazy loleffort game. If I literally have to effort to get townread because that's just My Thing, then I'm going to burn out for longer and longer after every game until I'm just a withered husk.

<3

fontisian

Somewhat like #151, as I find fonti playing traffic cop to be more indicative of her town game than not. Not that it's at all a difficult thing to fake, but a ping nonetheless.

#399, her Mal case, is the first time there's really some meat to dive into. Tbh, I don't love it. It feels a little IIoA-y - there's more narrating what happened with some general notes of skepticism / disbelief, and it's a pretty wordy post for what essentially boils down to "Mal doesn't care about the questions he's asking."

Could see this as an attempt for wolf!fonti to like, rev up the engines somewhat, but... ok there is definitely an element of comedy here considering how fonti ended that exact post, but it there's, uh, and element of TWTBAW here.

<_<

Man I felt dirty just writing that.

There is, though. Fonti as both alignments follows a pretty normal pattern of like, short disengaged posts, a few random pokes, and then a medium length case on someone 1/3-1/2 of the way through D1. Her wolf cases have more bite than this, on the whole. Gun to my head, this is town!fonti kinda trying to psych herself up / get into the game.

#567 combined with #572 is another thing I associate with fonti's towngame. I couldn't back it up with examples, but I feel like I've seen her do that "pre-case mic drop" post as town a fair bit, and not a ton as a wolf. That whole kind of... "boom, scumread" <small gap> <elaboration/explanation>.

There's also the non-trivial fact that I agree with the content of the read.

#500 probably spews a few people town if fonti is actually a wolf, but that's a bridge I'm not going to cross at the moment.

I like the Waco analysis in #682 and #687. They're reads going in different directions, which on a surface level is hedge-y, but it doesn't super read like that, it reads more like genuine thought. Like, I don't really see a Waco Agenda even when you mix these two posts together.

She's right, you know.

Not going to fall into the trap of townreading that for it not being the way I think wolf!fonti would approach me knowing I'm town. Not going to.

Probably.

I'm kind of surprisingly reading fonti as moderately town here. I'm nearly universally at light town on fonti every single game, regardless of what alignment she actually ends up being, and I'm like... 25-30% stronger town here?

It's been a while since I've been pocketed by scum fonti, maybe it's time to get the band back together.

Waco

I bit the bullet and went back and looked at Owner's Market, and I'm... maybe a little concerned. I think what pinged me is that Waco is taking like, "campaign for Lump" literally. And it's, uh. Kinda similar to the way he was playing in Owner's Market (as scum).

Which, yeah.

I know it seems like somewhat of a lulzy read, but it's the kind of similarity I've learned to listen to.

Just remember, I caught scum!Vaimes for using the phrase "I'm sad" at me and comparing it to the way he'd used the same phrase as a wolf in a previous game. So there's that.

As far as Waco's actual content goes...

Don't super love #181. It's picking at what amounts to like, meta-spec from tom. I don't really see Waco getting anything out of that inquiry.

#350 is decent. I mean it's nothing, but I like the tone. It feels like... town!Waco feeling his oats and having fun. Not sure I see a real good reason why he couldn't post it as a wolf, but it just feels town.

I also like #595. I like the exchange with dC. Generally going over Waco's ISO has convinced me that he's not w/w with dC, meaning in the world where Waco's a wolf he's talking to town!dC and he just... Waco has a specific thing he does when he focuses on one person as a wolf and if it were anyone this game it would be dC and it doesn't feel like that. The wolf version of this is more like... snippy, sarcastic, blustery? Whereas I get the impression in this post and elsewhere that he's actually trying to sort dC.

This post actually feels a lot more like that, come to think of it. Echoing fonti that it does seem like the potential is there for this to be like... overblown in a wolfy way.

#669 is like 350 above in that it just feels like... loose and easy. Dunno if he makes that joke about Cobalt as a wolf. Doesn't feel like it, but, eh.

Yeah some mixed feelings here, and I'm taking that Owner's Market thing perhaps more seriously than I should, but... think I'm just gonna yolo town on Waco? I bet I can catch him D2-3 if he's a wolf.

Cobalt:

Pretty obviously town, I think. Not gonna go over it, it's basically that if he was a wolf who knew I was town, the approach he's taken to me this game is pretty bonkers. And the fact that the MathBlade-adjacent Jetpack To The Island Of Conclusions logic is pretty squarely a feature of his towngame.

Cobalt, I'm gonna do you a big favor here and break a personal rule of mine for just a moment: The way you're reading into the fact that I'm ignoring your case on me is a pretty good example of why I'm doing so. I don't engage with people I'm scumreading about my read on them, and I don't engage with people who are scumreading me about their read on me. This post is already much too long, and I'm not going to overstuff it further by going on a long theory tract, but if you're curious about my reasons for this stance, feel free to skim Acionyx's ISO in WitchHunt12, or the QT I had mentoring Vaimes in the Bare-Bones Basic.

Delphine:

Saw as I was writing this that Stanari subbed in, which is pretty :thumbs.

Hi Stanari, be town, etc, thanks. Saw you asked me a question; let me know if this post doesn't answer it <3

Someone mentioned liking Delphine's #241 and in retrospect I kind of agree. I went back and looked at a few things, and I think I may have underestimated how much Delphine, like, is familiar with me or at least has read my games and style. It's, uh, not a symmetric thing, (which I realize sounds terrible, sorry Delphine. Let's play together more and eventually I'll get there?). In that context, this post makes a lot more sense, whereas I initially read it as kind of overblown in a wolfy way.

#308... still feels overblown, tbh. It was such a minor thing to have that strong a reaction to. Kinda felt like rattlesnaking.

I didn't catch that little bit about me in #437 until just now, but I actually like it in the context of the read she was trying to give my copypasta. The phrasing of "haven't gotten anything yet", like, implies a flat null whereas as a witch I think she'd be pressured to either double down or pivot off that initial read, not just like "I saw a thing, I had a read, we talked about it, now I don't have anything."

#439 and how she talks about projection is definitely something I can buy as genuine here. I also think the expectations she was putting on me for understanding her meta make her earlier thing about me make more sense, even if they're.... kinda unfounded. (Which, again, sorry.)

Coming out of Delphine's ISO feeling surprisingly better about her. Not quite sure I'd lock her in as town, as she wasn't exactly... present/engaged enough to really feel that town energy shining through, but I no longer would consider her a PoE scumread, and more of a "yeah okay seems reasonably town, grading on a curve of a small amount of posts" read.

(I can't believe I have three of these left to do. Thankfully I did them ordered by post count so the last few are short. Hey, also, bonus, if anyone asks me how I picked the order to do these in, they obviously didn't read this huge post and are probably wolves who just skimmed it for their name, groaned/cheered as appropriate, and then wrote me off as never getting lynched this game.)

Gemma

Don't.... super want to read too much into #493, but most of the time this would be more villagery than not. Ish. @fontisian @Jan is this the kind of post that Gemma wouldn't blink an eye at making as a wolf? Like, most people might make this kind of post under a fair bit of pressure, as a wolf, but it takes a certain kind of person to really kind of... twist the emotional knife like that, this early in the game, as wolf, off very little pressure. If we can talk about this in a way that's constructive, great, if it's something I should just drop, feel free to tell me to piss off, too.

Might have to go back and look at the timing of #706 and see how many votes I have. If this is post-Cobalt thread entrance, probably a bit less good, but if it's pre, then I kind of like it.

#759 feels.... grounded. The Waco read isn't really an evolution, more of a restatement from before this, but it reads as like.... boiled down to the essentials. In a way that makes me believe it's a real read. Like she's not just rehashing what she said, she's kinda... working it down to a core level, eh yeah I'm starting to just literally ramble at this point.

Also feeling moderately better about Gemma. Less so than Delphine, but I do have the beginnings of a read here now. The reason to scumread her slot is pretty obvious - she's very much nibbling around the edges of the thread, not making waves. She has a stated reason for this, but like... yeah. She sounds generally reasonable/agreeable. In the event that shadow and Jarizok are both town, I'd take a hard look here, as that would mean wolves were under no serious pressure D1 and... her play kinda fits an archtype.

I'd say suuuuuper light town for now, pending potentially talking with fonti/Jan about that one post.

Definitely fine giving Stanari a phase pass.

Shadow:

This super reminds me of how I pocketed Cobalt in TH5.

#668 is prickly in a wolfy way. "Go ahead and shade me more" is like, #3 in the top 10 things wolves say under pressure.

#647 is the tail end of the Waco exchange. Not buying the conviction, especially the "even more sure" line. I'm like... 90% sure that there's always exactly one wolf between Shadow/Waco.

677 is just shade on Waco, not an actual reason that "not playing with a serious tone" is more likely to come from one alignment over the other.

At least half of the player comments in #677 are not actual reads and are just like, "things that happened."

Yeah. Still think shadow is quite >rand wolf here. So much of his game feels surface level. Like, if I actually accept that his initial comment about copypasta wasn't specifically making reference to my meta (and it doesn't read that way to me at all, but whatever), then the thrust of that entire point is like, "people who do a thing as town a lot are going to do it as a wolf." Which is so banal as to border on kind of insane that it was that big of a thing to begin with.

Mal

HOME STRETCH BABY.

So, like...

I can pick out a few things I've liked from Mal. He didn't awkwardly RVS, I somewhat buy his read on me, though the Caph comparison is kind of a stretch? I somewhat like the way he was going for like, "freshest takes" as a catchup mechanism.

Compared to his overall engagement or activity though it's kinda.... immaterial.

Gun to my head, Mal's town and just kinda... not digging the game, or something? Pretty hard read to actually run with, though, given things.

Anyway, updated list:

Vaimes | Cobalt

dC
Jan

Delphine->Stan
fonti

Waco
Gemma
tom

Mal

Jarizok
Shadow

Would bet a fair bit on Shadow/Waco not both being town, think we always hit one in that pairing.

Would be pretty shocked if we didn't hit at least two by shotgunning through Shadow-Waco-Jarizok-tom.

A little ~concerned~ Delphine is that high and Gemma that low. I think that might be wrong, but that's what feels right at the moment.

I want to lynch either Shadow or Jarizok, and Lump tom.

I would accept Mal as a Lump if tom doesn't work out. Have a kind of unjustifeid gut townread on him and I kinda want him to get soft greencheked because I feel like he'll use the Lump and try to actually do things and maybe get into the game that way.

Well, that was a great use of my time, writing that. Mafia's fun. I definitely sign up for games and have a lot of fun. I just need to keep reminding myself of that in moments like this.
Click to expand...

I'm just going to talk with Newcomb for a bit and everyone else can pretend this post doesn't exist and I never broke my promise at all.

Hey Newcomb. Sorry for not giving you more space than I did. I know I haven't really been pushing you but I haven't done anything to help you either and I did get a little hotheaded and ended up talking about your shadow omgus thing which probably made things worse. I'm kind of having emotional flashbacks to pushing on Reg in Princess and how awful that felt afterwards when we talked and he told me how shitty it made him feel to have to do a bunch of shit just to help me calm down and feel comfortable with him being town. Kind of feels like I've already failed at keeping an even keel and letting people have a bunch of room to do things without me getting in their way and it really sucks even if I think I've mostly done a good job of it. I read your post and was just like motherfucker Newcomb's probably town and now I feel like shit for pressuring you at all and I'm rereading and rerereading it trying to figure out if I'm jumping the gun and it's just a huge effort post from you that doesn't actually mean anything and half-hoping that Jan or fonti comes in and clears you because I don't have the meta knowledge and now Delphine's gone too and I just feel like screaming. Anyway I'm sorry I know how shitty it is to have to go out of your way to get people off your back sometimes, I think I feel guilty as well because if I were playing my usual game here we would probably be talking a ton in thread and people would be reading you a lot differently as a result but instead I'm kind of just seeing you not really have anyone to talk to. I've kind of been thinking myself about how I'm going to handle it if people aren't able to get There on me and I don't have the luxury of doing the things I usually would without deviating from how I want to play here but I also think part of the process is just going to be accepting that and if I want to grow as a player (although I'm kind of thinking of this or Jan's invitational being my last game at least for a while so... at least outside of hydra anyway) then I have to be able to rise to the occasion somehow within the constrains I've set for myself.

Anyway I'm rambling, sorry. I think I'm just trying to preface this with an apology for whatever that is worth to you and be open with you about where I'm at so we can talk properly, but basically I do have some issues with your post? Mostly from like a macro or whatever perspective apart from like the tom read I feel like you're kind of just repeating yourself and not really putting anything much new in the thread but that might be really uncharitable of me so I don't know, feel free to say I'm full of shit or whatever? I don't mean like, in terms of your reasoning since obviously you're talking about things in way more depth than you have before but in terms of where you're at it / your stances overall doesn't feel like things have moved for you in a significant way and I guess I'm expecting that it maybe would have with you making this kind of post? I might be projecting here though because typically unless I'm having a conversation with someone (who am I kidding, no one besides Regfan ever actually reads my shit) I don't really put out big posts like that unless I have something I feel strongly about that I want heard whereas your post doesn't feel like that very much? Like, if it's just you wanting to open everything up and show everyone where you're at because you're recognizing that a lot of people scumread you and you need to do something about that then I think it makes more sense from you in that context, but also if that's the case then I'm not sure why you're not spending less time writing walls and more time just in thread talking to people and interacting and putting out the same level of content that way? I could just be expecting the wrong things from you and I'm not even sure if talking to you about it is going to help since if you're mafia you're just going to say what you need to but, what is your process there basically I guess?

Another concern I have is that you've done a huge amount of talking about townreads and different levels of townreads but when it comes to scumreads and your reasoning for your scumreads you've got surprisingly little for how much weight you're putting on the reads? And I feel like if you're mafia here you're probably a lot like Regfan in that this is something you're likely going to be struggling with much more than finding and talking about reasons for people to be town so it's actually slightly worrying? Not sure again how reasonable this is since I'm struggling to find any really solid scumreads myself and am kind of just working to PoE off my townreads at this point but I think it's more the strength of a read or the amount of work you've put into it not feeling like it matches with the reasoning that's bothering me.

When I go over your tom read there are a few things you're talking about in there that aren't +town for your read on him but the majority of them are and it feels like all your reasoning is pointing towards townreading him then you come out the end of it saying you feel worse about him and that you think he should be lumped and I'm just left feeling kind of confused? And your reasoning there is just that he's feeling low content? I also don't understand how the point of the town markers you had coming after your first look at him ties into your reasoning there, why does them coming later weaken the read for you?

I'm not sure how much I should talk about the actual reasoning you've put forth on tom there as I'm aware that meta plays a huge part in how you read him (and fwiw I came in kind of thinking I could lean on you pretty heavily with reading tom and if I could get a townread on you then I wouldn't have to worry so much about getting him right, so I'm not really sure I'm even qualified to be disputing/supporting your reasoning on him) and I'm not super knowledgeable on his meta at all (I'm 2/2 on him so far which is uh, cool I guess but not a real sample size at all).

That said I ~agree with most of what you've said in there about him? I don't really agree with 294 sounding fake even if I understand how you're reading it that way. It's actually what I'd been thinking about dC around that point wrt him feeling like he was in a different game to everyone else and not understanding why I felt that / whether it was even real and I basically groaned and put it out of mind and decided to sit a while longer on getting a grip on him until I saw tom's post, then had dC townreading tom at the same I was starting to settle into my townread there, didn't feel like tom had done anything generically/conventionally town to make dC feel that read there though and started feeling more comfortable with dC as a result. So it was kind of a loopy sequence and it didn't feel fake to me at all.

I townread him more than you do and your read makes me kind of wary and feel like I should probably reassess on him but when I think about my reasoning there I am fairly comfortable with it? At least for day 1? Like, part of the reason I scumread him as strongly as I did in the hydra game was that I just couldn't feel him going anywhere at all, even when he had reads and talked about them it didn't seem like they meant anything to him, didn't feel like he was working through them and cared about them in wanted to go places with them and I feel like he has cared this game? And in the Westeros game he was a lot more solvy than he was in the hydra game and maybe it was just spoiled bias there but a lot of his reads felt kind of brittle, his thread presence was fairly strong or maybe muscular but he also just didn't seem interested in entering into conversation with anyone and his progressions were borderline scumclaim-y I thought at points.

Like, is it premature / misinformed / bad of me to be feeling like he's not really feeling the way he did in either of those games here? I don't really feel like my reasoning is that strong and I'm not sure how much of this is actually just a tone read and when I kind of think about tom's wolfgame I know that there's a very real chance that I'm overestimating myself and underestimating him and shouldn't be doing that so like, I don't know, but at the same time it feels stupid and kind of disrespectful to just second-guess myself when I have reasoning that I like because "well he /could/ be pocketing me". (Which is actually something Regfan has talked to me about and something I'm very consciously trying to avoid this game, the hydra game I just came out of with fonti I was constantly second-guessing myself even when I had good reasoning for reads and it just led me into paralysis basically and kind of frustrated fonti a bunch at the same time.)

Re: dC, I don't understand why you didn't include any of his posts around page 17? What are your thoughts on this sequence from him because it feels very... I don't know unnatural in a sense and I don't think he's very different to how was before tonally even though the way he's posting looks very different. I think it might be strange to me because I've not seen him post this way before but he feels so directed and focused and the speed with which he's churning through the ISOs with him coming out with a hard take and nowhere else to carry the read feels almost unreal. I disagree with some of his reasoning and some of it I just don't understand very well but most of it I can pretty easily follow how he's reading into what he is and don't really have huge issues with any of it?

And I'm again feeling like I'm just left with a thread presence / effort / tonal read where I find it pretty difficult to believe that he's putting out this level of content with none of it feeling forced, his thoughts still seeming kind of scattered throughout in a way that I think is pretty hard to fake, no real like, direction or agenda to anything he's doing + still interacting in thread at the same time he makes these reads posts and... ehhh I guess if he's mafia here he wrote these /all/ up beforehand, which... meh, I guess? That feels kind of dumb though, I don't think that's real? I think he's just town?

Your Jan read is kind of perplexing to me and I don't understand how you're getting a strong townread off the posts you are. (Jan's drop off is a RL thing and not indicative at all btw.) I see 208 and 436 and I don't really have any feelings about them at all either way? I mean, I kind of faintly like them and I like your reasoning there even if I struggle to wrap my head around it fully but I don't understand how you think these are things Jan couldn't post really easily as mafia?

I feel like he made these same type of posts in Princess and they're kind of just a little more... I don't know, pointed? here, I think? Like I feel like he said a bunch of kind of empty shit in Princess and his posts here don't feel totally empty but I don't really understand how those two aren't just him doing the usual Jan thing of hyperfocusing on really bizarre points and making reads off them. I don't know I guess I'm not asking you to explain more but, yeah I don't really follow your read there at all. Feels like you've looked a couple posts that are weakly indicative, noted his thing with me as being +town and ended up with a strong townread and I'm left wondering why there's so much empty space in there.

I think my read on him is ultimately just going to come back to the gambit and how that played out in the context of our history together and the personal baggage we have. It's kind of impossible not to bring OOG stuff into the read here but you kind of know most of it from Princess mafia? There's been other stuff too that have kind of made things a bit sensitive between us but basically we mostly made peace after Princess I think, I obviously had my freak out here where it looked like he was tunneling me again for the way I was interacting with fonti but since it wasn't actually real we are actually fine now I think but like, I just really don't think he ever dares touch that again if he's mafia after he spent all game tunneling me in the last game we played together and how that turned out, he doesn't get anything out of it at all as scum and he has to feel like it would be too close for comfort whereas if he's town it's a very different dynamic. Agree with you that the way he pulled out of it felt very town.

There's probably a chance I'm reading into something that's very much not indicative of anything for him but there's enough that I like about him outside about to make me not super worried I think, at least not now and I kind of just go back to how I read him in Princess, baggage aside he was a TWBAW read for me for most of the game and when I realized that I was reading him on too high a level then he was just instantly Actually Just A Wolf for me, Reg and I kind groaned at each other postgame for how bad we were for not lynching him day 1 considering how scummy he was and yeah, just think what I've seen from him so far feels pretty solid and I'm comfortable with putting him aside.

I realize I haven't actually talked through my reasoning beyond the gambit here and it's because I kind of don't want to let him know exactly how what I'm reading him off but feel free to tell me if you think anything I have said is bad I guess. Sorry if I'm a little too rambly, I'm slightly distracted and starting to feel a little tired and it might be making me a little incoherent.

I think you've pretty much touched on all my main concerns with Jari. He's actually repeated that same phrasing of getting to town on him by now wrt dC, the first time he said it you've linked to in 349 and the second time he's said it as a basis for his scumread on dC, don't think those two thoughts make sense together, unless he means in the first instance that he's played enough games with dC and in the second instance that he's had enough time in this game? Don't think the second line feels particularly real regardless but that's maybe not very good reasoning.

Don't really agree with you on 413? I had a similar thought early about Waco about how it looked like he was still scumhunting while he was campaigning for lump and I felt like if he was mafia there it would maybe look a little differently with him probably still interacting in thread but maybe not actively scumhunting if his focus was so heavily on the lump thing? Like, there's an element there of splitting your focus as scum that's slightly more difficult to do I think for most players so I kind of liked that Jari had that take, don't think it's a read he really needs to make there as mafia.

I actually kind of have an issue with the timing of his lump self-vote though? Like, he's said earlier that he doesn't want it and thinks he should be considered above it, but when he's under pressure and sees dC defending him / lumping him he's suddenly in favor of getting it? But he's not actually done anything to try to get it. So I don't understand that from him and it doesn't feel like a real thought but feel free to shut me down on that, I'm not sure how good that reasoning is.

I also don't agree with you on 416/420, that felt like another TMI type read from Jari where he's sticking to his townread there because he knows it's correct. I was kind of torn reading it the first time because I felt like it could be a read on a partner and he's just spinning everything mal does to look town but I don't think I'm good enough at reading into that kind of thing to really say.

And I kind of feel like if he were town he'd actually be interested in trying to communicate with fonti there? It just looks instead like he's said a bunch of words without thinking them through and then realized that he's not actually talking to fonti at all, but still not done anything to fix that. Like, I've been in that situation as town before and responded to something someone said then realized that I misunderstood their question, apologized and actually answered their question. It's maybe just an effort / playstyle thing though I guess?

Think your reasoning on fonti is good. Agree on getting the band back together. Not sure how you have her 25-30% higher than a light town read if she's at a 75% rand baseline but I'm not very good at maths...

It's getting late and I'm really sleepy, sorry I got distracted doing other things too much to finish your post. Can hopefully talk more tomorrow. This was fun!

--- Post automerged ---

tom said: ↑

Ok so the general idea (recycled from "readwebs" from that time I played as a spider) is to put people I trust closer to me, and try to make scum far from me and (theoretically) close to each other.

You see me, the nose wearing my sunglasses with a mustache sticker.

You see nearest to me cobalt the Buddha and vaimes the cobra-in-a-walnut. They can get as close as they like.

And then the next range out: waco the green cowboy, Jan the cymbal monkey, fonti the lion.

And then only slightly further but kind of behind is gemma, the tiny purple elephant atop a box of Chinese fireworks. I think I'll let that speak for itself

Moving out: jari the California raisin, thug the grenade thrower, shadow the sith, Newcomb the inkbottle, stanari the eeyore, DC the chip and/or dale
--- Post automerged ---
Also stanari I want you to know I own several birds that I could have made you, and you got an eeyore from a 90s happy meal
--- Post automerged ---
So, I spent some time moving those around until they felt right to me.

Some of it is directly meaningful, like wanting shadow/waco far apart, or Newcomb near jari.
Some of it makes sense if you don't think about it too much, like wanting Jan near the middle because he's townie but fits on most teams. Or Newcomb near the edge because him being scum, while not a strong read either way really, is representative of an alternate world

Some of it makes none at all, like switching the figures for Jan and jari because I wanted it to look like jari was tooting his horn for thug.

I... Don't think this was wildly successful. My reads are generally weak enough that this felt kind of form over function.
Perhaps when I feel more strongly later on, or come up with a different method of display
Click to expand...

omg I love this so much btw I do the same thing not a spiderweb but three-dimensional reads in my head all the time I will make a post about it tomorrow maybe

fontisian · Mar 8, 2018

Fuck yes, I thought I was the lion.

Jan · Mar 8, 2018

Newcomb, you are not the person with that read.

Owner reads me exlusive on my jokes and if they make her laugh or feel more forced.

Whihc can get a bit stupid games where I try to stay serious because of the playerbase.

Anyways. I am here just going my thing.

--- Post automerged ---
When you realize someone meta-scumtelled but you think it means nothing about their alignment this game.

Conflicted.

Stanari · Mar 8, 2018

tom said: ↑

Also stanari I want you to know I own several birds that I could have made you, and you got an eeyore from a 90s happy meal
Click to expand...

Extremely mood.
--- Post automerged ---

shadowlancerx said: ↑

“But shadow, you just called Newcomb out for reading NAI things from Tom as AI”
Click to expand...

Newcomb · Mar 8, 2018

dichotomousCreator said: ↑

shit, my burst of energy crapped out before I could finish analyzing the playerlist

uhhhhh

everyone else is null

yeah

(I will try to get back around to that but I don't know when day ends)

Lynch: Newcomb
Click to expand...

I feel like I don't really have a grasp on your case on me, dC.

Can you lay it out in terms of like.... I did X, Y, Z, and those are things that have wolf motivations because <reasons>?

I obviously don't want to get into an argument about it, but I do think it's important for me to fully grasp your reasoning here, and currently I super don't.

Stanari · Mar 8, 2018

Cobalt said: ↑

@Stanari I believe you asked for a reads list
Click to expand...

Shadow is too high, tell me about Mal and Waco?

tom said: ↑

Thoughts on gemma?
Specifically gemma vs jan
Click to expand...

Requires a lot more processing power than I have at the moment.

Vaimes said: ↑

@Stanari hi bird
Click to expand...

Hi Vaimes! Are we giving Newcomb a day pass or is he town?

Newcomb · Mar 8, 2018

tom said: ↑

Yeah future solving.
Click to expand...

Gonna address this to Gemma as well -

Reads and read trajectory can only ever be a reaction to the thread. You don't drive it yourself. Put another way, the onus is on players to evolve and change, and then reads change in reaction to that. Like... you're both dinging me for the expectation that my reads would somehow have some element of... future solving, whatever that means, or Gemma's thing on evolution/progression. I think you're both a bit out to lunch, to be honest.

Like... if you get a moderate wolfread on a player off their first post, and you end up at a moderate wolfread by their 500th post, like yes the actual end result of the read stayed the same, but... who cares? Like... why would you pay attention to what reads are, the words that are used, when all of that is so... surface level? It's the journey, not the destination.

Put a third, more blunt way, you're putting the expectation me that my reads have to be like... constantly spicy or dazzling and flip on a dime or whatever, and like.... I've been on Jarizok/Shadow all game, well guess what they've been fucking wolfy all game.

????

I have a super hard time understand people who read that post I made and focus in on where my reads end up, which is by far the least important thing about it.

Vaimes · Mar 8, 2018

Stanari said: ↑

Hi Vaimes! Are we giving Newcomb a day pass or is he town?
Click to expand...

Yes.

Stanari · Mar 8, 2018

Vaimes said: ↑

Yes.
Click to expand...

Yes.

I kind of think Gemma's reaction to Tom's thing is a bit town but that's extremely lolread.
--- Post automerged ---
Lynch: Shadow
Lump: Newcomb

fontisian · Mar 8, 2018

I'm not lynching or lumping Newcomb.

Jan · Mar 8, 2018

I am between Shadow/Mal with lynch.

And between Mal/Tom/Jari with lump?

Not completely sold on this, but I think it should be about right.

Stanari · Mar 8, 2018

fontisian said: ↑

I'm not lynching or lumping Newcomb.
Click to expand...

Thanks, that really helps with the you/Newcomb crack coven?

Newcomb · Mar 8, 2018

Jan said: ↑

I am between Shadow/Mal with lynch.

And between Mal/Tom/Jari with lump?

Not completely sold on this, but I think it should be about right.
Click to expand...

:thumbs

I do think Mal is town, but it's not a read I can really defend. Would much rather Lump than lynch, but he's not the worst D1 lynch.

Mal/tom/Jari is a great lump pool.

I'm going to work, should be back 1-2 hours before EoD.

Waco Kid · Mar 8, 2018

dichotomousCreator said: ↑

Well that's the problem I'm having with lynching him in a nutshell: This feels like his play there

I mean, he's been a little less aggressive pursuing the deathtunnel this time? OTOH it was on ME so :v

And there was the thing where he bounced off me onto shadow but like

that seems counterproductive for scum unless a buddy was under threat at the time.

...I'm kinda talking myself into doubting myself here >_>

I think I'll shelve it for tomorrow. He might make a good Priest check for N2 and be worth leaving alive on that basis? Or we could just lump him and do that with Jari? (I am seriously annoyed we can't lump them both, they're practically the same person as far as my actual read on them is concerned i.e. metatown mislynch fodder that I don't quite trust on the merits but also am pretty sure scum will angle to mislynch if they're town)
Click to expand...

Morning all.

dC, your thought process here pretty much sums up why I wanted the lump here. Because this has happened to me a lot lately, and was hoping to put it to rest with the N1 priest check.

Time to start reading.

Vaimes · Mar 8, 2018

Ohhh wait, I just remembered why I thought Waco was towny.

Lynch Jarizok

Jan · Mar 8, 2018

Newcomb said: ↑

:thumbs

I do think Mal is town, but it's not a read I can really defend. Would much rather Lump than lynch, but he's not the worst D1 lynch.

Mal/tom/Jari is a great lump pool.

I'm going to work, should be back 1-2 hours before EoD.
Click to expand...

Tom is a parnoia lump. More likely green than red, but having a greencheck is never bad in my opinion.

I for some reason am full split on Jari. Good chance that he is just town. I would not trust him greenchecked as much as I would Tom.

Mal would be a pretty good greencheck. But I feel from the pool of 3 he is the most likely red.
Just something about his diconnect from big parts of the day and the way he hasn't advocated being lumped at all, when he should be in the lump pool for a good amount of people.

Fonti would be a good lump too .. but like .. a greencheck on her is bad because as town she is somewhat likely to day at any time and adding a doublevote to it is not good for that reason. (basically the same reason for not asking for the lump myself).

I think Waco is just town. Feels fairly similar to last game.
He did fool me in his last scumgame .. so I am not giving him the all clear.
Might be an ok lump.

Lynches .. if Mal is/would be off the table then I might add Jari.

A part of me wants to speedlynch Gemma for bad-ish reasons. But I don't want to push that world at all today.

Like .. dC/Cobalt/Vaimes/Waco/Newcomb are not on the table today (most of them not ever, i think).
Leaves a fairly small pool, which is good. But i have too many towny thoughts even inside that poe.

shadowlancerx · Mar 8, 2018

@Vaimes @Jan: talk to me about Waco, specifically his reaction to me and saying I was Omgusing him.

@Stanari: Explain your vote please.

@Fonti: why is a Newcomb lump off the table for you?

Stanari · Mar 8, 2018

shadowlancerx said: ↑

@Stanari: Explain your vote please.
Click to expand...

Ornaments.
--- Post automerged ---
I may just have acquired an allergy to Shadow tbf.

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