Well that's the problem I'm having with lynching him in a nutshell: This feels like his play there

I mean, he's been a little less aggressive pursuing the deathtunnel this time? OTOH it was on ME so :v

And there was the thing where he bounced off me onto shadow but like

that seems counterproductive for scum unless a buddy was under threat at the time.

...I'm kinda talking myself into doubting myself here >_>

I think I'll shelve it for tomorrow. He might make a good Priest check for N2 and be worth leaving alive on that basis? Or we could just lump him and do that with Jari? (I am seriously annoyed we can't lump them both, they're practically the same person as far as my actual read on them is concerned i.e. metatown mislynch fodder that I don't quite trust on the merits but also am pretty sure scum will angle to mislynch if they're town)

 

“How did Newcomb pick the order for his big post?” /s
~~~~
One day I’m going to actually play with scum!Newcomb (for real, not when he’s intentionally acting like scum) and have a real baseline here, but gosh darn it that post isn’t a ridiculous amount of effort. While I understand why he uses post numbers instead of quote, I’m going to vent about how frustrating that is to deal with on mobile.
And I am disappointed in the sections on me and Tom; me because it feels kind of empty and very surface, especially for his top scum read. Tom because (and Tom already said this but) he spends a lot of time talking about things that really aren’t AI for Tom IMO.

Lump Newcomb
I want this.

Spoiler

So I have a stupid gut read on Tom as town here. While I think him making a web read is totally NAI, the fact that he came away from it disappointed is very much a town marker to me. I think as scum he’d play with it until it felt good, and as town he’d play with it until it felt right.

“But shadow, you just called Newcomb out for reading NAI things from Tom as AI”
Yes I know. That’s why this is a gut read.

~~~~
Re Waco case, The quick version:
His play regarding the Lump has been very much an attempt that was destined to fail, and he made it the focal point instead of also doing other things (TM). When I called him out on this, he snapped out at me and threw mud at me for it, even going so far as to call out OMGUS when it was the other way around.

If we aren’t lynching Waco, is Lump him for the Priest check.

 

I'm just going to talk with Newcomb for a bit and everyone else can pretend this post doesn't exist and I never broke my promise at all.

Spoiler

Hey Newcomb. Sorry for not giving you more space than I did. I know I haven't really been pushing you but I haven't done anything to help you either and I did get a little hotheaded and ended up talking about your shadow omgus thing which probably made things worse. I'm kind of having emotional flashbacks to pushing on Reg in Princess and how awful that felt afterwards when we talked and he told me how shitty it made him feel to have to do a bunch of shit just to help me calm down and feel comfortable with him being town. Kind of feels like I've already failed at keeping an even keel and letting people have a bunch of room to do things without me getting in their way and it really sucks even if I think I've mostly done a good job of it. I read your post and was just like motherfucker Newcomb's probably town and now I feel like shit for pressuring you at all and I'm rereading and rerereading it trying to figure out if I'm jumping the gun and it's just a huge effort post from you that doesn't actually mean anything and half-hoping that Jan or fonti comes in and clears you because I don't have the meta knowledge and now Delphine's gone too and I just feel like screaming. Anyway I'm sorry I know how shitty it is to have to go out of your way to get people off your back sometimes, I think I feel guilty as well because if I were playing my usual game here we would probably be talking a ton in thread and people would be reading you a lot differently as a result but instead I'm kind of just seeing you not really have anyone to talk to. I've kind of been thinking myself about how I'm going to handle it if people aren't able to get There on me and I don't have the luxury of doing the things I usually would without deviating from how I want to play here but I also think part of the process is just going to be accepting that and if I want to grow as a player (although I'm kind of thinking of this or Jan's invitational being my last game at least for a while so... at least outside of hydra anyway) then I have to be able to rise to the occasion somehow within the constrains I've set for myself.

Anyway I'm rambling, sorry. I think I'm just trying to preface this with an apology for whatever that is worth to you and be open with you about where I'm at so we can talk properly, but basically I do have some issues with your post? Mostly from like a macro or whatever perspective apart from like the tom read I feel like you're kind of just repeating yourself and not really putting anything much new in the thread but that might be really uncharitable of me so I don't know, feel free to say I'm full of shit or whatever? I don't mean like, in terms of your reasoning since obviously you're talking about things in way more depth than you have before but in terms of where you're at it / your stances overall doesn't feel like things have moved for you in a significant way and I guess I'm expecting that it maybe would have with you making this kind of post? I might be projecting here though because typically unless I'm having a conversation with someone (who am I kidding, no one besides Regfan ever actually reads my shit) I don't really put out big posts like that unless I have something I feel strongly about that I want heard whereas your post doesn't feel like that very much? Like, if it's just you wanting to open everything up and show everyone where you're at because you're recognizing that a lot of people scumread you and you need to do something about that then I think it makes more sense from you in that context, but also if that's the case then I'm not sure why you're not spending less time writing walls and more time just in thread talking to people and interacting and putting out the same level of content that way? I could just be expecting the wrong things from you and I'm not even sure if talking to you about it is going to help since if you're mafia you're just going to say what you need to but, what is your process there basically I guess?

Another concern I have is that you've done a huge amount of talking about townreads and different levels of townreads but when it comes to scumreads and your reasoning for your scumreads you've got surprisingly little for how much weight you're putting on the reads? And I feel like if you're mafia here you're probably a lot like Regfan in that this is something you're likely going to be struggling with much more than finding and talking about reasons for people to be town so it's actually slightly worrying? Not sure again how reasonable this is since I'm struggling to find any really solid scumreads myself and am kind of just working to PoE off my townreads at this point but I think it's more the strength of a read or the amount of work you've put into it not feeling like it matches with the reasoning that's bothering me.

When I go over your tom read there are a few things you're talking about in there that aren't +town for your read on him but the majority of them are and it feels like all your reasoning is pointing towards townreading him then you come out the end of it saying you feel worse about him and that you think he should be lumped and I'm just left feeling kind of confused? And your reasoning there is just that he's feeling low content? I also don't understand how the point of the town markers you had coming after your first look at him ties into your reasoning there, why does them coming later weaken the read for you?

I'm not sure how much I should talk about the actual reasoning you've put forth on tom there as I'm aware that meta plays a huge part in how you read him (and fwiw I came in kind of thinking I could lean on you pretty heavily with reading tom and if I could get a townread on you then I wouldn't have to worry so much about getting him right, so I'm not really sure I'm even qualified to be disputing/supporting your reasoning on him) and I'm not super knowledgeable on his meta at all (I'm 2/2 on him so far which is uh, cool I guess but not a real sample size at all).

That said I ~agree with most of what you've said in there about him? I don't really agree with 294 sounding fake even if I understand how you're reading it that way. It's actually what I'd been thinking about dC around that point wrt him feeling like he was in a different game to everyone else and not understanding why I felt that / whether it was even real and I basically groaned and put it out of mind and decided to sit a while longer on getting a grip on him until I saw tom's post, then had dC townreading tom at the same I was starting to settle into my townread there, didn't feel like tom had done anything generically/conventionally town to make dC feel that read there though and started feeling more comfortable with dC as a result. So it was kind of a loopy sequence and it didn't feel fake to me at all.

I townread him more than you do and your read makes me kind of wary and feel like I should probably reassess on him but when I think about my reasoning there I am fairly comfortable with it? At least for day 1? Like, part of the reason I scumread him as strongly as I did in the hydra game was that I just couldn't feel him going anywhere at all, even when he had reads and talked about them it didn't seem like they meant anything to him, didn't feel like he was working through them and cared about them in wanted to go places with them and I feel like he has cared this game? And in the Westeros game he was a lot more solvy than he was in the hydra game and maybe it was just spoiled bias there but a lot of his reads felt kind of brittle, his thread presence was fairly strong or maybe muscular but he also just didn't seem interested in entering into conversation with anyone and his progressions were borderline scumclaim-y I thought at points.

Like, is it premature / misinformed / bad of me to be feeling like he's not really feeling the way he did in either of those games here? I don't really feel like my reasoning is that strong and I'm not sure how much of this is actually just a tone read and when I kind of think about tom's wolfgame I know that there's a very real chance that I'm overestimating myself and underestimating him and shouldn't be doing that so like, I don't know, but at the same time it feels stupid and kind of disrespectful to just second-guess myself when I have reasoning that I like because "well he /could/ be pocketing me". (Which is actually something Regfan has talked to me about and something I'm very consciously trying to avoid this game, the hydra game I just came out of with fonti I was constantly second-guessing myself even when I had good reasoning for reads and it just led me into paralysis basically and kind of frustrated fonti a bunch at the same time.)

Re: dC, I don't understand why you didn't include any of his posts around page 17? What are your thoughts on this sequence from him because it feels very... I don't know unnatural in a sense and I don't think he's very different to how was before tonally even though the way he's posting looks very different. I think it might be strange to me because I've not seen him post this way before but he feels so directed and focused and the speed with which he's churning through the ISOs with him coming out with a hard take and nowhere else to carry the read feels almost unreal. I disagree with some of his reasoning and some of it I just don't understand very well but most of it I can pretty easily follow how he's reading into what he is and don't really have huge issues with any of it?

And I'm again feeling like I'm just left with a thread presence / effort / tonal read where I find it pretty difficult to believe that he's putting out this level of content with none of it feeling forced, his thoughts still seeming kind of scattered throughout in a way that I think is pretty hard to fake, no real like, direction or agenda to anything he's doing + still interacting in thread at the same time he makes these reads posts and... ehhh I guess if he's mafia here he wrote these /all/ up beforehand, which... meh, I guess? That feels kind of dumb though, I don't think that's real? I think he's just town?

Your Jan read is kind of perplexing to me and I don't understand how you're getting a strong townread off the posts you are. (Jan's drop off is a RL thing and not indicative at all btw.) I see 208 and 436 and I don't really have any feelings about them at all either way? I mean, I kind of faintly like them and I like your reasoning there even if I struggle to wrap my head around it fully but I don't understand how you think these are things Jan couldn't post really easily as mafia?

I feel like he made these same type of posts in Princess and they're kind of just a little more... I don't know, pointed? here, I think? Like I feel like he said a bunch of kind of empty shit in Princess and his posts here don't feel totally empty but I don't really understand how those two aren't just him doing the usual Jan thing of hyperfocusing on really bizarre points and making reads off them. I don't know I guess I'm not asking you to explain more but, yeah I don't really follow your read there at all. Feels like you've looked a couple posts that are weakly indicative, noted his thing with me as being +town and ended up with a strong townread and I'm left wondering why there's so much empty space in there.

I think my read on him is ultimately just going to come back to the gambit and how that played out in the context of our history together and the personal baggage we have. It's kind of impossible not to bring OOG stuff into the read here but you kind of know most of it from Princess mafia? There's been other stuff too that have kind of made things a bit sensitive between us but basically we mostly made peace after Princess I think, I obviously had my freak out here where it looked like he was tunneling me again for the way I was interacting with fonti but since it wasn't actually real we are actually fine now I think but like, I just really don't think he ever dares touch that again if he's mafia after he spent all game tunneling me in the last game we played together and how that turned out, he doesn't get anything out of it at all as scum and he has to feel like it would be too close for comfort whereas if he's town it's a very different dynamic. Agree with you that the way he pulled out of it felt very town.

There's probably a chance I'm reading into something that's very much not indicative of anything for him but there's enough that I like about him outside about to make me not super worried I think, at least not now and I kind of just go back to how I read him in Princess, baggage aside he was a TWBAW read for me for most of the game and when I realized that I was reading him on too high a level then he was just instantly Actually Just A Wolf for me, Reg and I kind groaned at each other postgame for how bad we were for not lynching him day 1 considering how scummy he was and yeah, just think what I've seen from him so far feels pretty solid and I'm comfortable with putting him aside.

I realize I haven't actually talked through my reasoning beyond the gambit here and it's because I kind of don't want to let him know exactly how what I'm reading him off but feel free to tell me if you think anything I have said is bad I guess. Sorry if I'm a little too rambly, I'm slightly distracted and starting to feel a little tired and it might be making me a little incoherent.

I think you've pretty much touched on all my main concerns with Jari. He's actually repeated that same phrasing of getting to town on him by now wrt dC, the first time he said it you've linked to in 349 and the second time he's said it as a basis for his scumread on dC, don't think those two thoughts make sense together, unless he means in the first instance that he's played enough games with dC and in the second instance that he's had enough time in this game? Don't think the second line feels particularly real regardless but that's maybe not very good reasoning.

Don't really agree with you on 413? I had a similar thought early about Waco about how it looked like he was still scumhunting while he was campaigning for lump and I felt like if he was mafia there it would maybe look a little differently with him probably still interacting in thread but maybe not actively scumhunting if his focus was so heavily on the lump thing? Like, there's an element there of splitting your focus as scum that's slightly more difficult to do I think for most players so I kind of liked that Jari had that take, don't think it's a read he really needs to make there as mafia.

I actually kind of have an issue with the timing of his lump self-vote though? Like, he's said earlier that he doesn't want it and thinks he should be considered above it, but when he's under pressure and sees dC defending him / lumping him he's suddenly in favor of getting it? But he's not actually done anything to try to get it. So I don't understand that from him and it doesn't feel like a real thought but feel free to shut me down on that, I'm not sure how good that reasoning is.

I also don't agree with you on 416/420, that felt like another TMI type read from Jari where he's sticking to his townread there because he knows it's correct. I was kind of torn reading it the first time because I felt like it could be a read on a partner and he's just spinning everything mal does to look town but I don't think I'm good enough at reading into that kind of thing to really say.

And I kind of feel like if he were town he'd actually be interested in trying to communicate with fonti there? It just looks instead like he's said a bunch of words without thinking them through and then realized that he's not actually talking to fonti at all, but still not done anything to fix that. Like, I've been in that situation as town before and responded to something someone said then realized that I misunderstood their question, apologized and actually answered their question. It's maybe just an effort / playstyle thing though I guess?

Think your reasoning on fonti is good. Agree on getting the band back together. Not sure how you have her 25-30% higher than a light town read if she's at a 75% rand baseline but I'm not very good at maths...

It's getting late and I'm really sleepy, sorry I got distracted doing other things too much to finish your post. Can hopefully talk more tomorrow. This was fun!

--- Post automerged ---

omg I love this so much btw I do the same thing not a spiderweb but three-dimensional reads in my head all the time I will make a post about it tomorrow maybe

 

Fuck yes, I thought I was the lion.

 

Newcomb, you are not the person with that read.

Owner reads me exlusive on my jokes and if they make her laugh or feel more forced.

Whihc can get a bit stupid games where I try to stay serious because of the playerbase.

Anyways. I am here just going my thing.


--- Post automerged ---
When you realize someone meta-scumtelled but you think it means nothing about their alignment this game.

Conflicted.

 

Extremely mood.
--- Post automerged ---

 

I feel like I don't really have a grasp on your case on me, dC.

Can you lay it out in terms of like.... I did X, Y, Z, and those are things that have wolf motivations because <reasons>?

I obviously don't want to get into an argument about it, but I do think it's important for me to fully grasp your reasoning here, and currently I super don't.

 

Shadow is too high, tell me about Mal and Waco?

Requires a lot more processing power than I have at the moment.

Hi Vaimes! Are we giving Newcomb a day pass or is he town?

 

Gonna address this to Gemma as well -

Reads and read trajectory can only ever be a reaction to the thread. You don't drive it yourself. Put another way, the onus is on players to evolve and change, and then reads change in reaction to that. Like... you're both dinging me for the expectation that my reads would somehow have some element of... future solving, whatever that means, or Gemma's thing on evolution/progression. I think you're both a bit out to lunch, to be honest.

Like... if you get a moderate wolfread on a player off their first post, and you end up at a moderate wolfread by their 500th post, like yes the actual end result of the read stayed the same, but... who cares? Like... why would you pay attention to what reads are, the words that are used, when all of that is so... surface level? It's the journey, not the destination.

Put a third, more blunt way, you're putting the expectation me that my reads have to be like... constantly spicy or dazzling and flip on a dime or whatever, and like.... I've been on Jarizok/Shadow all game, well guess what they've been fucking wolfy all game.

????

I have a super hard time understand people who read that post I made and focus in on where my reads end up, which is by far the least important thing about it.

 

Yes.

 

Yes.

I kind of think Gemma's reaction to Tom's thing is a bit town but that's extremely lolread.
--- Post automerged ---
Lynch: Shadow
Lump: Newcomb

 

I'm not lynching or lumping Newcomb.

 

I am between Shadow/Mal with lynch.

And between Mal/Tom/Jari with lump?

Not completely sold on this, but I think it should be about right.

 

Thanks, that really helps with the you/Newcomb crack coven?

 

:thumbs

I do think Mal is town, but it's not a read I can really defend. Would much rather Lump than lynch, but he's not the worst D1 lynch.

Mal/tom/Jari is a great lump pool.

I'm going to work, should be back 1-2 hours before EoD.

 

Morning all.

dC, your thought process here pretty much sums up why I wanted the lump here. Because this has happened to me a lot lately, and was hoping to put it to rest with the N1 priest check.

Time to start reading.

 

Ohhh wait, I just remembered why I thought Waco was towny.

Lynch Jarizok

 

Tom is a parnoia lump. More likely green than red, but having a greencheck is never bad in my opinion.

I for some reason am full split on Jari. Good chance that he is just town. I would not trust him greenchecked as much as I would Tom.

Mal would be a pretty good greencheck. But I feel from the pool of 3 he is the most likely red.
Just something about his diconnect from big parts of the day and the way he hasn't advocated being lumped at all, when he should be in the lump pool for a good amount of people.

Fonti would be a good lump too .. but like .. a greencheck on her is bad because as town she is somewhat likely to day at any time and adding a doublevote to it is not good for that reason. (basically the same reason for not asking for the lump myself).

I think Waco is just town. Feels fairly similar to last game.
He did fool me in his last scumgame .. so I am not giving him the all clear.
Might be an ok lump.


Lynches .. if Mal is/would be off the table then I might add Jari.

A part of me wants to speedlynch Gemma for bad-ish reasons. But I don't want to push that world at all today.

Like .. dC/Cobalt/Vaimes/Waco/Newcomb are not on the table today (most of them not ever, i think).
Leaves a fairly small pool, which is good. But i have too many towny thoughts even inside that poe.

 

@Vaimes @Jan: talk to me about Waco, specifically his reaction to me and saying I was Omgusing him.

@Stanari: Explain your vote please.

@Fonti: why is a Newcomb lump off the table for you?

 

Ornaments.
--- Post automerged ---
I may just have acquired an allergy to Shadow tbf.