First of all, I would love it if Mathblade was scum, because everything she's trying to say would finally make sense. I have considered it, exactly because of the reasons you've brought up. And she most likely isn't.

Aside from this being pretty much the same stream of bizarre thought she always displays (WIFOM and B&T), there IS one thing she's absolutely right about: If she lied about that bastard mod thing she claims is in her QT she'd be blacklisted from all games.
If she's scum and she wins like this...well, it's a holow victory, for one. And two, she'd never be allowed to play again.

---------- Post automerged at 07:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 PM ----------

Also, are Snow and I seriously the only players that don't use invisible mode?

---------- Post automerged at 07:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ----------

Actually, Mathblade, if you're around, I'd like you to describe in as much detail as possible what that whole bastard mod thing you mentioned was.

 

I don't use invisible mode on a computer, but I'm using Tapatalk on my phone, so it may not add me to the Watching Users list.

Is there a rule against lying about what's in a QT? Or just bad form?

 

I pointed out what struck me as off with the TerRaine thing--the quick voting, without reading her posts, the retraction when pressed even though your arguments weren't bad, the distancing from her. You claim you did not take back your suspicions, but aside from the post where you unvote, where do you mention her again as a suspect? When do you bring her back up at all? Your team at the end was Math/Rubi, all of the sudden.
Also show me where you're seeing this inconsistency: I recall calling you newbie. New != Stupid.
I think you're new, but I think you're smart. That's what I've been saying.

(Defensive to me is when you get emotional and aggressive and your arguments don't make sense but you dig in your heels and refuse to back down. Defensive to me is not explaining your stance.)

---------- Post automerged at 07:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:43 PM ----------

It's an unspoken rule in the site to not lie about RL, and about anything that the Mod tells you.
You can certainly lie about the contents of your QTs but saying something like "The mod told me player1 is scum for SURE!" and it not being true is considered a huge blacklist mark against you.

 

@Riley: Can you please check my QT and see if it is permissible to post what I have in my latest entry? It is not a direct copy but is a summary. I am trying to avoid breaking the rules but I don't know how much detail I can give here. Would you either like to answer or check if I can post that?

@Sloth/Atum: I am absolutely not scum and agree wholeheartedly it would be a hollow victory. Lying about mod conf or believed mod conf should be kicked out of games.

---------- Post automerged at 19:59 ---------- Previous post was at 19:52 ----------

@Sloth/Atum: It's a rule I can't post directly from my QT what a mod said...So this is a rock and a hard place. Without Riley's permission to go further it is difficult for me to go further than that.

 

I honestly don't really want to lynch you. MathBlade's conviction is just so giddy it's almost infectious.

Mostly, yes. Based on collective opinion, MathBlade is the towniest town. I know I'm town, so as long as you promise you're not a wolf we have a decent chance of winning.

That's fair. Scum this game has been pretty crafty, and since I've never been in or even seen a full game of Atum's I don't know how he'd fare at conning everyone. So my mind has been defaulting to Rubicon.

At this moment in time, right now, do you think I'm the last wolf? Yes or no, no explanation, you can always change your mind afterwards. I'm just curious.

I do believe you and MathBlade are town (which bugs me because she told me and Rubicon to quit squabbling since it's "two townies fighting" and then she's going at it with you). So Atum by PoE.

Because there's over a thousand posts in this thread and I do things on a regular basis outside the game that require a decent chunk of my memory. For the most part I think I've kept track of the goings-on.

Honestly, I don't know what to think of your posts. They make sense, but it's getting to that point where I feel like everyone is playing me. One of you is lying and I am very much uncertain.

You totally meant this in a mean way.

I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours.

 

I still believe you are the most likely scum Snow. The point of what I was doing was to get people to examine everyone. You are infinitely better than me at making mafia arguments. The idea was to get everyone riled up so people would make more scum tells so I would be able to easily confirm suspicions in end game.

The entire gambit was a point to teach someone to investigate everyone and to keep everyone posting fast to get someone to slip. The more posts that exist before lynch the more likely scum slips up. So the faster I caused you to post, the more likely you'd be to mess up and have others have enough evidence to pick their top pick.

The more I posted arguments the more it felt like you'd just call it a bad argument so I came up with a plan in the night to try to get Rubicon/Snow to attempt to not argue with each other long enough to actually consider you as scum. If afterwards they still think you are scum that's fine.

But yes, I believe Sloth is absolutely tunneling Atum and will not listen to arguments otherwise. This along with prior arguments I believe is scum.

This is a GAME. I would not cheat in order to win it. I'm sorry that you feel I ever would. If I lose I lose. This gambit was mostly about having fun before my likely death and teaching everyone to investigate everyone. I was trying to make sure everyone did their best to scum hunt.

I'll just go back to the traditional way of scum hunting then. If everyone believes Sloth is town then they do. The point was for people to LOOK.

---------- Post automerged at 20:21 ---------- Previous post was at 20:18 ----------

Sloth* Ugh

 

I feel like half of that post wasn't directed at me?

---------- Post automerged at 21:26 ---------- Previous post was at 21:25 ----------

Ah.

/10townies

 

Looks like Riley isn't on. I'm logging out for the night. If you have questions I will see them Wednesday morning.

 

@Snowvon

And now that you've seen my case, which is strongest?

If you had asked me before that whole bit before we went to bed last night, I'd have probably said no a lot more strongly.
Right now, it's still 'no', more out of PoE, but I'm more unsure.

...Snow, it's either the last or the second to last Day. You NEED to take a stance. There is only one scum, we can't all be playing you.
It's this wishy-washy attitude that still makes me anxious that I'm getting everything wrong. -__-

--
@Mathblade

I've actually been asking questions of Snow and Rubicon too, like, all day. And I don't see pressing my scumreads being a scumtell - can you point me to arguments that prove mine wrong?

Nobody accused you of cheating, Mathblade. Isn't my telling Atum that you're town over your mod claims a sign of my believing you?
All I asked was for you to go over in more detail so I could understand. Did Riley say you can't post what you wrote on your QT?

You keep insinuating we're calling you stupid, or saying you're cheating, or who knows what else - no one's done that. Stop playing the drama card. There is no drama here.

---------- Post automerged at 09:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 PM ----------

Ah, ok.

(Off game: Guys, I just got done watching this HILARIOUS new reality show, called "I wanna Marry Harry."
...oh my god guys, these 12 american girls are taken to the UK for a bachelor-esque competition to win the love of Prince Harry of Wales.
...EXCEPT IT'S NOT PRINCE HARRY. IT'S A GUY THAT LOOKS LIKE HIM. AND THEY DO NOT KNOW THAT.
....OH MY GOD. It is SO MEAN-SPIRITED, BUT SO DELICIOUS TO WATCH.
Plus watching us classy americans clash with the british makes it worth it on its own.)

---------- Post automerged at 11:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 PM ----------

Guys, I gotta go to bed, sorry. Busy day tomorrow.
I'll probably be around for a few hours in the evening, but I'll likely miss the Day End.
Whatever you do, remember me reads.
Night all.

 

Sloth analysis

If Sloth is scum, he's played a brilliant and also ridiculously ballsy game and basically avoided making any huge slips or even attracting any negative attention until yesterday. Part of me wants to rule that out as unlikely independent of other evidence.

This was before the reroll, and superficially implies he wouldn't be as excited if he rolled scum this time. However, it also implies he thinks he would be good enough as scum to fool a game filled with stronger players. So here's me not underestimating him.

His play in the first couple pages was much less consistent than his later play. This is a bad sign: Usually, scum figure out what they need to do to look town as the game progresses, so you can often find more scum-tells in the first few pages.

He opens with a bullshitty attack on LochNess for her post saying she would be more active - this could be excused as an early RVS push, although he doesn't explain it that way, and continues acting like it was serious. (And only withdraws the argument grudgingly, later.) This does look like a manufactured scum argument.

I still don't totally understand his reason for town-reading Citrus on page 1. I didn't follow up on it because I guessed what he might have meant, but it was illogical. He might well have just made the whole thing up and tried to pass it off as something he believed.

He called the RVS votes on ika 'weird' and 'trolling' which looks like discrediting.

His attack on Lyrium in the above quote is also kind of weak and could be manufactured.

This is a very aggressive play if he's scum: however, also an effective play.

He followed up with a push on Snowvon: "No one's going to tell me why I'm scum except you."

At a lot of points in the game he seems to misunderstand posts and/or not get what people are saying. I should go back and see if he does this in other games or if it's new: This could be a deliberate tactic, or it could indicate that he's not actually reading other people's posts (because he's not genuinely scumhunting).

I don't really like this phrasing -- it's going too easy on ika even though he knows I think ika is being scummy, weakening "definite scumminess" to "possible scumminess" -- it could indicate a lack of town paranoia.

This is the mindset thing I mentioned earlier: He frames everything as though other players need to prove themselves to him.

This is consistent with the kills we've seen.

This could be the reason Lyrium died. Lyrium is kind of evasive about her reasons for asking her questions about the Seer. Sloth might have picked up on this and concluded she wasn't worried about outing the Seer because she was the Seer.

--

Next he attacks Snowvon over whether Prophylaxis is really not posting in the mentor QT - kind of bullshitty.

Next is the huge defense of Maiden and Lyrium for having been scum last time. I liked this section a lot because it indicates Sloth was seriously analyzing each player to see who is playing differently. On the other hand, as I typed this I realized he might have been doing this to look for the Seer. That he posted the defense at all is pretty good, of course - though since Maiden was lynched and Lyrium shot it worked out.

--

Interactions worth noting:

Dermon is only 'eh' in Sloth's first post, which is like a textbook buddy interaction. Much later,

This does look like coaching / guiding Dermon toward a defense.

One last thing: I asked Sloth about his comment about bussing because it seemed like a mindset inconsistency. Earlier, he argued with me that Dermon wouldn't have even risked putting his buddy on a list of three scum reads (Snowvon). Now, he thinks bussing a buddy would have been a great strategy.

--

Conclusion: If one chooses not to underestimate Sloth and analyze him on the level he seems to think he would play at as scum, there are in fact reasons to think he is scum.

I'm probably not going to have time before I go to sleep tonight (next hour or so), but I will do my best to get an Atum analysis up before deadline.

I keep going back to Snowvon's D1 posts and just having a hard time believing his response to ika and Sloth was deliberate AtE. The same goes for his post earlier talking about how he worries about being wrong. He seems really sincere, and my IRC experience says that might mean he's town.

I'm going to sleep on this and see what I think in the morning, but right now I'm probably leaning toward MathBlade's plan. The extra lynch gives us some breathing room.

 

Vote Count:

Atum (1) - Sloth

Not Voting (5): Atum, MathBlade, Rubicon, SnowVon

Day Ends at this time

 

About the bastard mod, I have permission to say the following:

I cannot post a direct quote. The best I can do is this.
1) I complain to Riley in my QT pre kill that I think it was not a good idea about the prechat to answer the question as it mod confirmed Titus.
2) He says he can't lie about the question.
3) I suggest in the future he pulls a prophy and not answer the question.
4) Nothing else is mentioned in my QT.

This to me looks like a mod confirmation of Titus since he says he can't lie.

Note: I got permission to post this after I left yesterday. Thanks Riley for giving permission.

------

If you wish more details about it, you can see my QT later.

Prove 100% no. Imply yes. And this is a general thing rather than PBPA.

These are in no particular order.

A good warning case for Atum lynch, potential scum points against other players -- http://wiki.epicmafia.com/index.php?title=Lurk
Most new players lurk because they are inexperienced and do not yet know how to play the game well. This can lead to a mistaken lynch, and in worse cases, a loss for the town. Active lurking means a player is watching the game and being somewhat active in the chat, but contributing nothing to the conversation. Active lurking is more likely as an inexperienced mafia member. I consider posting fluff, changing/removing tags, or sometimes even being intentionally too wordy "active lurking". This is subjective though.

Potential town tell for Atum --
http://wiki.epicmafia.com/index.php?title=Towntell
Atum is lurking which some people may advocate is scummy in this game, because of the chaos, but is on some games it is a town tell.

Imply Sloth -- http://wiki.epicmafia.com/index.php?title=Strategies_and_Tactics
see

• Be consistent: try to play the same way as you play if you're town, even if you're generally scummy
• Be extremely careful about referencing your mafia partners in ANY context. If an observant villager notices a link between two of you after one is revealed to be mafia, the village may be quick to lynch the other.

The first one is because as town you normally posted long, complex arguments, then as scum you'd have to do that. Having extremely townie play doesn't make you town in this case because of this and having someone try to "discredit" your town play ignores this argument. It's kind of scary because of how consistent you are as if you read this page (This is WIFOM I know). I would have expected some different reactions to different scenarios (and no...I'm not telling you what) to provide some variance.



Implies Sloth or Atum --The literal interpretation implies Atum. The converse implies Sloth in that you may be trying really hard to


Implies potential Sloth -- Showing sudden, heightened, and self-concerned interest in the game after a vote or suspicion is brought against you ("Why me? = Fry me.") {This one is opinion but one vote and no one really following shouldn't IMO have brought up alarm. }

Implies potential Sloth/Mathblade (although arguing me is stupid still leaving the implication) -- http://wiki.epicmafia.com/index.php?title=Tunneling

Albeit weak, it is still an implication of what could be.

Imply potential Snow -- http://mafiawiki.notesmash.org/wiki/CapnAndy_Gambit while an unreliable idea at times, the fact no one asked it after nearly a "day" of pushing until Rubicon directly mentions it provides cause for concern. Combined with the sheeping of something that should not be sheeped from Snow, this seems pretty bad. You'll notice I broke from prior pattern and poked him for an argument.

And benefit of the doubt for Atum.
Potential Atum Scum - https://forums.darklordpotter.net/showpost.php?p=726196&postcount=1702
Seems odd he is lurking the entire time but doesn't ask his mentor Fonti questions on the rules. Fonti has been on the thread so this doesn't really make sense.

I understand that it is your perception it is not there. There is no point in arguing it so dropping it.

(Off topic: What channel? I think I know of a friend of mine that might like it. I tend to air more towards the sappy romantic comedies rather than cutthroat ones. I'm glad you like it though. In the middle of June we get Rookie Blue that Canada got Monday. And I can't wait for some of the scenes because people on tumblr don't use spoiler tags.)

@Rubicon: Very descriptive

---------- Post automerged at 11:18 ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 ----------

Implies Sloth or Atum --The literal interpretation implies Atum. The converse implies Sloth in that you may be trying really hard to want us to find a connection that you may be scummy leaning on this tell too much.

Ugh board eat word death problem. /boardissues

---------- Post automerged at 15:06 ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 ----------

-------------
SPACE FOR LIKELY MERGE
-------------


@Everyone: A little more than 4 hours until lynch...It might help to ya know...Have discussion and lynch someone. I know some of you posted you may be offline but for those that haven't please pop in.

 

I'll be around all day, right now I'm working through Atum's posts.

 

@Rubicon: Awesome. Good to know. I just didn't see anyone so I got worried...Usually the thread is a shitstorm of posts.

---------- Post automerged at 16:24 ---------- Previous post was at 15:30 ----------

And yay Invisibility is off since I'm caught up on most of my work for clients that I wanted done before All out June *happy dance*

 

Just came across this... meh

 

Yeah pretty suspicious and my sister is usually a pretty good reader. But at the same time, I'm still leaning towards Atum being the proper play. He has done way too much lurking for my liking even if he is town and the last thing we want is the inability to lynch on the last day. I was hoping that maybe some of the potential poking from Sloth that he's scum would lure him out but I don't know if we can risk Atum getting that far. Or if he has some nefarious end game plans that require him to lurk.

Both Atum and Sloth are huge wild cards to me.

 

(Writing this on iPad and as quick as I can so excuse errors, please. Also how weird is it that iPad insist on autocorrecting itself to capital letters yet makes the mistakes it makes?)

Math, I only had time to skim your response but it seems to me it's mostly--entirely, really--theoretical with nothing but belief to back it up. I'll go over it further later if I get the chance to, but you should keep that in mind in the meantime.

@rubi
This is interesting.

If you thought it was illogical, why did you drop it? Guessing that I meant something illogical doesn't quite make sense to me.

ok. How?
I took back my vote on loch because her answers and general demeanor made sense for town. I don't see my arguments being bullshitty even now: self-awareness and hyper-defensiveness are seen as scummy.

again, how? They WERE weird and I explained why I thought it was trolling from you. Them being RVS doesn't change that.
Hell, we had this discussion and I'm not sure what about the reread made my answer back then seem any less legitimate.

Because snow was my suspect and I wanted to see if he was sheeping. This is also something that was already answered.

cept that this is how I always treat ika! and I've stated as such in irc. Because I know he's just going to be a pest and trying to read him this early is a waste of time.

why? I explained why I found that off, with proph on Irc, and accepted his explanation for it.

-just a note at this point, but I really should not have to keep asking why and how questions in your analysis of me.-

you have no reason to believe me on this, but I'll just say it: when I'm scum, I have no intention of ever coaching. I think it's stupid to do so.
But here's the important part: why are you even bringin this up? You know that's not the case. Hell you brought it up why this is in 1634: "The most interesting Dermon interaction is in #1106 and the lack of knowledge of him in the #1283 follow-up (Dermon played WitchHunt)."
That post you call coaching was me pressing him to see if he addressed citrus' expectations of him as a player, which I explain in 1283--I thought they were a team over it. Unless you're saying I coached him and then scrambled to look for an excuse on a very complicated plan involving pairing him with citrus.
But why am I explaining, you already knew that. You read it.

...uh-huh.
You're saying that it's a contradiction that I said sermon wouldn't put snow as a scum read and then said that bussing sermon would be a good strategy.
I'm trying really hard to think of a scenario where you'd honestly believe that makes sense. Ok:
When I said the demon thing, it was during the first day, when both scum were fairly active. It'd have been stupid to drag attention to a buddy then, since they needed as much help as they could get.
When I said I would bus him for towncred, it was today--d5, when Dermon/bond had been AWOL for a long time, when they weren't contributing or helping, and were basically dead weight that people would eventually grow suspicious of. Plus, with a modkill incoming. That's the scenario where I said I would bus him. I was clear and concise about that.
Where is the inconsistency?

Remember how a few posts ago you said something among the lines of me being slow on the uptake/things going over my head/something like that?
You're doing the same thing.
Cept some of these are obvious. Some of these you should know the answer.

A lot of these points are taken out of context (snow thing, coaching, bussing) when the context makes it clear what my thought was. That deletion of context starts to feel a lot more intentional as I read these, because in some you're contradicting things you've said as early as yesterday about me.
And it really doesn't seem like you to do those sort of mistakes.

Here's a question: why did you take so long to post this analysis, if you don't mind me asking?
I mean, aside from the very last point, which was made yesterday, all of your arguments come from d1-d2. Did it seriously take you that long to read them? It seems like you were struggling to put a somewhat believable case against me like trying to squeeze blood out of stone.
I also can't help but notice you posted it after I had left, on a day I had clearly stated I would t be around to defend myself. Convenient.

p.s.

this one isn't really a counter, which is why is last, but have you not seen my past games? Oh wait, of course you have, since you've played them with me.
So you'd know that there's yet to be a game where I'm scum, just like there's yet to be a game where I don't say something that people think is stupid/scummy in the first page, resulting on them someone (usually fonts) trying to tunnel me or me getting almost lynched.
Like I said, it's not a defense. But you of all people know this, so you were the last person I'd expect to try to use something like that in an analysis.

--

Math, please stop wanting to be just right and READ what I'm saying to him. Try to look at it from my angle.
Yes, it's OMGUS to say rubicons case on me makes him a lot more scummy, but look at why I'm saying that.
If you want to, fine, lynch me, but you better learn something from it.

--
Anyway, guys I'll be going now. I'll check on my phone before day end if I can, and I'll hammer if need be, even if it's me.
If I die today, you all better take my cases seriously.

It's atum/rubicon. And...that's all i can give for now. I. Honestly no longer sure which is most lkely after that last post, coupled by arums lack of contribution -_-

---------- Post automerged at 05:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:04 PM ----------

..today I discovered that my autocorrect corrects ika! to ika! ...what the hell.

 

(Having had done some elementary coding for an SDK to get a feel for iPad app development and owning one for years yeah spell correct sucks ass...The Android one isn't much better.)

Interesting choice of words. Borrowing from your psychology argument that word choice matters:

a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine. (Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory)

It's also my opinion that the entire mafia game is about hypothesis and forming them and trying to see if you are right. It's probably not what you meant as you then ask me to consider things from your point of view.

Everything is about theory. Nothing is true "evidence". There are no power roles to confirm or deny anything. The only way to be 100% sure of someone's status is to either lynch or be mafia.

I do like some of your points about Rubicon's arguments though especially the last one. I just thought that was a slightly low key version of you but seeing that I may have to look at your meta after the game and see if that stacks up. (I generally avoid looking at meta during games because it tends to only confirm what you already believe, especially with PBPA as well.)

Can you also provide your Dresden link?

---------- Post automerged at 17:21 ---------- Previous post was at 17:18 ----------

Pronoun problem PBPA only confirms what you think usually. Not that I avoid PBPA. I do PBPA because it is expected in mafia forum games.

 

MathBlade: Atum's interactions with Dermon were good, though, aside from the random mention of Dermon early on (which he did explain). Part of me balks at lynching anyone whose posts Dermon called 'wonderful'.

This is a really weird endgame.

Sloth, basically, I wouldn't expect you to suddenly say I was right and your posts were bullshit. But I don't think Loch's post was self-aware or hyper-defensive, it was just saying she was back from vacation and would be posting more. I don't understand how two people randomly voting the same person is 'weird', that happens every game. What I liked about your original answer wasn't that it made sense, but that you seemed to think it did, and I could follow a possible mindset of you not understanding RVS.

The Proph thing is just a bad enough thing to attack on in the first place that it looks bullshitty.

You HAVE come under fire early in every game, but your posts here were different, I think. In WIFOM, your first post was weak and waffly but you explained it as a joke, and that made sense. In B&T, you jumped on me because I deliberately said something suspicious.

You have the weakest Dermon interactions of anyone, and I don't think you would have necessarily bussed. Re: coaching, I think you might not have known about Dermon's past games, but thought it WAS a legitimate defense to give him.

As for you having to ask me to explain, I was deliberately leaving out the deeper reasoning because I noticed when I just point out things you've done without commenting on them, you defend yourself, and it's more interesting to see how you defend yourself when you don't know what I'm thinking.

 

@Rubicon: Please vote Atum if you believe he is scum. Just so that way we have a lynch. I'm a bit nervous of day repeat with Sloth self hammer and I would want at least two other people besides Sloth to believe it. Giving Sloth is in the open with his votes and again Sloth benefit of the doubt I don't want a user trolling as a guest/invisible to suddenly log on and snipe for no reason. Since Snow or Atum may be lurking as guests and again be sure but investigate all leads to me try the safest plan of discourse.

---------- Post automerged at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:57 ----------

Ninja /10 reading