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Book 12 [Warning Massive Spoilers by Douches are now in play]

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by Ryuugi Shi, May 17, 2009.

  1. Sol

    Sol High Inquisitor

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    Well let's not forget that Sanya is agnostic and doesn't technically believe in 'God,'' and would thus lack 'faith in Him.' But it's been said that Murphy's whole family is Irish Catholic. As for one Knight being more powerful than others -- Michael said that Shiro could take on Nicodemus cause Shiro was a freaking genius with a sword, not because he had more faith.

    White Knight (the irony) is still hands down my favorite book of this series. This one was simply too transitory and frenetic, though I still loved it. One of the main questions I want answered is just who the heck is Bob. I'm not buying that he's just some random Air Spirit of Intellect. He's too powerful. Holding off attacks by multiple retired gods? Why is Mab pissed at him?

    I can't wait until Dresden walks into McAnnally's again. Going to be epic. I really enjoyed the new magic. The gravity bomb was awesome. The Ice magic was cool. Ebenezer, 'nuff said.

    Why could Morgan + other Wardens get close to the Red King? Well we still have no idea really what Morgan was capable of, plus I believe they had multiple SC members at that fight. It's possible that he could have been distracted. Not to mention he was insane. Maybe all the blood flying around got to him.
     
  2. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    Yeah, well, to me it seemed obvious that (1) Murphy knew the basics of the Katana and (2) the serious skill she displayed was the Almighty stepping in. I thought Bob was just there to protect her from other types of Psychic attack, though I'll agree he could have been doing more. But I'm getting tired of that topic, lol.

    Sol, I thought about that too. The Red King turned out to be a serious player and while Morgan was strong he wasn't that strong, so how'd he almost get to him and almost kill him that one time?

    I like your explanation that there were probably multiple Senior Council there distracting him. Morgan could have snuck in around the back, taken out some normal Reds, and been coming up behind him while the SC engaged him. Nice.

    Also epic agree with whoever said they can't wait to see Harry walk into Mac's again. Reactions to Harry in Ghost Story will be :awesome.
     
  3. Tylendel

    Tylendel Seventh Year

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    I may have a theory about that. When Morgan attacked the Red King, they were fighting in the Nevernever or in Oregon (not sure which one exactly and I can't check because I lent the book to a friend), in Changes the Red King was at Chichén Itzá, the seat of power of the Red Court, so it may make him more powerful.

    I know, it sound stupid, but Vadderung (Odin) implied that he was more powerful in his office than outside or Dresden reaction when he realise Molly is in Arctis Tor. Same may apply to Wizard after they make a Sanctum Invocation like Dresden did with Demonreach, allowing him to tap in the well of power and use the Intellectellus of the geni loci.

    In short, when they fight on their home field, magical being are more powerful, which may explain why Morgan was able to get close to the Red King while it was slightly harder for Harry.


    If I remember correctly, Bob is a spirit (obviously) which make him proficient to counter spiritual attack. Just a Tough. And don’t forget that he is described has a mini-Archive, so he must be quite powerful.
     
  4. MoPhire

    MoPhire First Year DLP Supporter

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    Pers sums up nicely the issues people have with Mouse's dog-talk in the book, the biggest one being that Mouse could talk.

    But a second look shows that only Mouse could actually speak. When Dresden did ...

    We've always known there was something weird/special about Mouse, especially with all the reactions of the other characters upon meeting him. His speech doesn't seem to be a new ability, just one that needs some special abilities(powers? couldn't find the right word) to hear.

    So, while I wouldn't expect a dog to be able to express itself well enough to convey the nuance of human speech, it is well within the realms of possibility that a supernatural creature would have no problem communicating with another. If a human being, with the ability to understand it, were to witness such communication, it would make sense that they'd hear it in a language they'd understand.

    Just like using the Sight enables wizards to see the world as it is, the transfiguration did something to Dresden, enabling him to understand Mouse's speech. I'd like to imagine that, were he human at that point, he wouldn't get a whiff of Mouse's and Lea talking.

    My point, I guess, is that, while Mouse speaking might have been a turn-off for some, it didn't seem that far-fetched to me.

    EDIT: Yeah... I hadn't yet read Tehan's and Mid's take on Mouse's talking, so ... yeah. Sorry for the repetition.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2010
  5. Anlun

    Anlun Denarii Host

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    Well finally finished the book, and as said many time already... twas badass.

    Couple of points

    I read up to page 20 or so of the topic and saw that early on people were writing about the scene where Dresden sees another guy shout 'Fuego'. It was theorized that because of this there is an implication of time travel, and the counter was that it could just be the spanish speaking people shouting "Fire" with their guns.

    As a spanish speaker I can disprove this. In Spanish you don't use the word 'Fuego' for the word 'fire' as in 'to shoot'. It's simply used for fire as in flame. Shoot would be like "dispara" or something.

    Not sure if that was already stated, but just thought to get that out there. I do think it was a foreshadow for time travel, which is further justified by Butcher's comment at the Q&A.

    Anyway things I liked were the use of magic, but I was very annoyed with the unbelievability of Dresden's stamina. One minute he's using SoulFire every two minutes, only to bitch about how tired he is. Yes the next he's casting around like it's nothing.

    I was also annoyed with the cameos of almost every character in the Dresden Files. The Erlking had no point and was purely filler. Butters in all honest wasn't needed to much (yes he patched people up but that scene seemed to be there only to throw in Butters).

    I thought Thomas was terrible in this book. Last we left he was a shell of himself, and knowing Dresden I don't know if I would be so buddy buddy with him anymore. Especially after e nibbled on Molly for a bit.

    I do think the daughter was handled well, she was important but not overwhelmingly so, and it doesn't look like she will have an overwhelming presence in the series.

    Now for my prediction as to who shot J.R. ... err I mean Dresden.

    Kincade seems to be the main culprit especially since he got his cameo in the book also.

    Fix is possible, but I think likelier than not it will have been a White or Black council member, trying to get rid of Dresden to avoid a Wizard/Winter Knight combo.

    I also wouldn't discredit any of the White Court, since it was Thomas who gave him the key to the boat. Hell knowing Butcher I wouldn't be surprised if it was Thomas who shot.

    Finally my guess for what was sacrificed in order to get the stone, was proably his shot with Susan. I found it very unDresdenlike for him to just indirectly kill Susan when he was willing to start a war to save her. And while it can be argued that he has grown since then, every time the argument came up in the book he would staunchly defend himself.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2010
  6. Dondada

    Dondada Squib

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    Going back to the odin scene, its hinted by odin that he has already offered help to harry. Then butcher makes a point of Harry mulling that over then deciding to eat the food and drink offered by odin AFTER the conversation. This seems a bit odd. Now i'm not an expert of norse mythology but someone earlier in this thread stated that butcher has no issue with tweaking mythologies to fit his story. I believe due to harry accepting odin's food he has somehow become entitled to a second life similar to those mercs at hired by marcone.
     
  7. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    Something potentially interesting (and maybe spoilerish so watch out) in Butchers forums.

    Apparently some guy in a signing asked about Eb's blackstaff, and was told to look at celtic lore around 1065AD.

    Apparently someone found mention of a staff that had one end that could instantly be used to kill(Much like what happened with Eb and the shooters), and another end which could be used to _raise someone from the dead_. An interesting find I think, especially since apparently one owner of the staff used it to raise his son from the dead, and Harry is Eb's grandson.

    http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17124.0.html
     
  8. Tylendel

    Tylendel Seventh Year

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    I don't think that will happen. After all, he would have been able to raise his daugther and he didn't. And with a power like that, the lost of the White Council would have been lower if you can resurect your own soldier.
     
  9. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    Obviously there would have to be somekind of limitations there, and a reason why it did not work on Maggie(She threw a death curse? Died via Outsider-powered entropy curse? Whatever). But I think something like this might be required.

    Someone else claimed in the forums that the short story Aftermath from Murphys point of view starts with a line about how she cannot believe that "he" is dead, suggesting that Harry is truly dead. Apparently this was mentioned in a signing somewhere too. I meant to post that link here but I forgot and now I lost the post. Bah.
     
  10. neopyro

    neopyro Third Year

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    Honestly, I don't expect there will be another book (or at least any time soon. Butcher might go back to Dresden books later in his career). The timing is too perfect for that. The fact that Jim Butcher killed off Harry right after concluding the Codex Alera series indicates to me a desire to have a clean slate. Personally, I think Jim Butcher has an idea for a new series and wanted resolution in his other books before he started it.

    Not to mention, that the "Wizards coming back to life" cliche' will have us all calling him "Harry the White" in no time.

    I was worried that J.B. was going to leave Sci-Fi/ Fantasy behind for either comics or maybe writing up plots for TV shows, but the lack of an Author's Note (other than the same one that's been in the last 4 books) doesn't suggest that. I'm betting on a new book series.
     
  11. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    Umm, you do realise that the next book is already confirmed to come out next year and even the name (ghost story) has been revealed and has even been updated at the authors website on the books list?

    There will be 10+ more books in the dresdenuniverse, one per year.

    Resurrection in a fantasy-magic based series is hardly new. Infact it has already happened to several characters in the series so the possibility is well foreshadowed.

    If you watch the signing QA's you will learn that he will continue to write 1 dresden book/year as I said.

    He is also planning his "what-if-the-dark-lord-won" fantasy book, and eventually his "epic epic fantasy epic which will be epic" series.
     
  12. RedNehi

    RedNehi DA Member

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    Cerberus will rebuild him, though. Right?
     
  13. Agayek

    Agayek Dimensional Trunk DLP Supporter

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    Greater and more terrible than ever.
     
  14. neopyro

    neopyro Third Year

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    Ah, awesome. I don't actually keep myself up to date on his news. I'm perfectly glad to be wrong (on all counts) in this case.
     
  15. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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  16. Verse of Darkness

    Verse of Darkness Denarii Host

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    This Ferrovax guy is no joke apparently.
     
  17. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Butcher himself said that Ferrovax is a dragon in the East Asian sense, rather than the giant, firebreathing lizard sense we have in the West. They're a force of nature comparable to angels and the Old Gods. There's a reason he's on the list of things that could take on Mab and stand a chance of winning.
     
  18. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    He also confirms there that Siriothrax was indeed a Dragon like that, though the weakest one of the real Dragons. I would have thought a creature of that level would not need to mess around with feeble mortal sacrifices. Meh. Makes Michael pretty cool though, for taking that critter down. :)
     
  19. Innomine

    Innomine Alchemist ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    They didn't call him the 'Fist of God' for no reason...
     
  20. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    Yeah, I'm having trouble associating the Dragon (capital D) that Michael killed with a being on the level of Ferrovax.

    Obviously the Almighty could take out Ferrovax and his brethren, but seems like giving Michael the ability to take on something of that power level is... well, not crazy but why? He didn't know Charity really at that point, so it's not like he was going to save his wife, and I'm sure he's been in other situations... ack, who knows. Mysterious ways and all that.

    I was thinking that Siri was a dragon (small D), but this must really make Michael look pretty badass to the supernatural world.

    Can't wait to see Ferrovax in action again. Force of nature indeed.
     
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