Actually, you are missing something. The Black family money was left to Harry, yes. However, "Sirius left Remus in charge of your financial affairs until your seventeenth birthday." (Bill, chapter 5).That means that as long as Remus signs off on it the payments to the Order are all completely legal. The fact that Harry wasn't consulted on them is grounds to have Remus charged with mismanagement, but that wouldn't get the money back since those payments were *legal*.

I think the reason Bill says the name is because he's a lot more rational concerning fear than most wizards, having experienced far more fearsome things. For most wizards, doing things like desk-jobs in the ministry, the concept of another wizard who would happily kill them just for getting in his way is so far removed from ordinary life that they can't handle the idea, hence being so terrified of him that they can't even speak his name. By comparison, Bill's seen a lot of stuff that invokes the same mind-numbing terror in normal wizards, and so the thought of Voldemort isn't so completely out of line with his normal life that he feels forced to fear to even speak his name. It's not that he doesn't fear Voldemort, just that he's a lot more rational with his fear. I know my argument doesn't completely jibe with canon (I think we've had aurors like Tonks and possibly Kingsley flinch at the name) but tbh I've always thought the fear of the name thing was overdone too much.

As a side-note, the most anyone's ever done in canon is cry out, and most people just flinch at worst. Pretty much anything more than that (people fainting, for example) is fanfic cliche.

 

Regarding the fic in general, I'm loving it. As much as I love a good revengefic, it's nice to read an Indy!Harry story that's mainly concerned with him actually getting his independance, rather than his revenge on everyone else. It's also a refreshing change to see his problems taking more effort to solve than going to Gringotts, signing a piece of paper making him emancipated and having his vault keys changed (then buying a magic trunk, some dark arts books, a spare wand, a phoenix that speaks parseltongue, a can of Dark-Lord-B-Gone etc). Instead, we're essentially getting Canon!Harry, and taking him in a new direction, which is brilliant. The one thing I really didn't like was Harry telling Bill about Luna. I can understand that he needed to tell Bill something, but I think divulging the whole secret was over the top, especially given that it amounts to pretty much the biggest betrayal he could do to Luna at the time, while he's still reeling from his betrayal by his friends. I know it's way past the point where my comment will make a difference, but that one moment felt really out of character for this Harry. I'm not too happy about him being a moody drunk either, but I can definitely see why he would be (plus I mainly don't like it 'cos I occasionally get moody when I drink, and it annoys the hell out of me).

Regarding the relentless demands for bloody vengeance/speculation on what'll happen when he goes back to Hogwarts (which I can't wait to see), I'm in favour of a less violent approach than most. I'd expect that by the time he goes back he'll have come to terms with what's happened, and while he certainly won't have forgiven his old friends or be willing to trust them again, neither will he attempt to kill them on sight, or explode with accidental magic. Frankly what I'd like to see would be him pretty much completely ignoring them unless provoked, with the possible exception of playing the odd cruel prank on them. If they do provoke him (for example Ron getting bitchy about Harry's attitude and making a poorly thought-out comment about how he should have been grateful to have a girl handed to him on a platter like that) then by all means have him hex him into the hospital wing, but I don't think Harry's gonna come back from the jungle seeking to make his ex-friends' lives a complete and total misery straight off the bat.

Dumbledore is something of a different kettle of fish, especially since he's almost guaranteed to antagonise Harry at least once, probably with the grandfather routine when they first meet. Since Dumbledore orchestrated the whole thing, as well as him doing the obliviating (which I personally consider to be the worst part of all that) I think Harry is going to be outright hostile towards him, though the question of what he can do does spring to mind. Whatever happens, I'm sure it'll be interesting, and I can't wait to see it.

Congratulations Jbern on another fascinating story.

[Edit]
btw, about your avatar Jbern, I find it pretty annoying, but that's mainly 'cos the image quality is so poor and because I've got no context for it, rather than because it's animated.
[/Edit]

 

Some great commentary there. I am taking my exam on Friday so hopefully I can pound some new material out next week.

An important distinction is that Dumbledore never was involved in the obliviation. He has been indisposed since Harry was dropped off at the Weasleys. It was Molly that orchestrated the switch to Gin-Gin and the subsequent obliviations. I know it doesn't seem like much, but it is important.

Vayne - some real nice posts. Definitely worthy of positive rep. I wanted to do an Indy fic that wasn't really focused on revenge. You will notice Harry's rancor towards the folks back in England will taper off as he becomes much more involved in his adventure. It will return when he finally goes back to England. I still haven't firmly decided if in fact he will return to Hogwarts or just to England. Whether he does or doesn't he will be a more mature Harry because of his adventures. People like Malfoy and Ron will seem childish and petty.

Niffler Lord, Fue, CGB and Cowboy W - All good points and sorry about the EE crack, I was just making a point. Bill is trying to be a good "big brother" mentor figure to Harry and when it comes to Cursebreaking, he is always going to be in charge, but you can bet that sooner rather than later Harry is going to be pulling his weight (and not just the cooking either!) around camp. He has a knack for attracting trouble...

IP - I will probably work on the other story first. Look for a rough draft of chapter 19 probably Wednesday of next week.

Jim

 

Actually that *does* seem like a lot, though it does depend to an extent on how much was her own initiative and how much was Dumbledore-approved (for example if he just said to try making Harry fall in love to help him deal with Sirius and the rest was on her own initiative, or if he said she should go to whatever lengths are required to keep him dosed up to the eyeballs on love). I wonder if Harry's going to find out all the little details about the plan itself and his 'missing days' before he goes back to Hogwarts. If not, it opens up a whole new can of worms as Harry doesn't have a clear picture of what's happened to him. Plus there's the issue of how to find out; he can't really trust anyone who was involved to give him a straight answer. If he picks up legilimency while in the jungle then I can actually see him using that on Funbags to find out (I'm not normally in favour of using legilimency like that since Harry knows what it's like to be mind-raped, but the situation definitely calls for it), but I don't see him specifically trying to learn legilimency since it doesn't help with his main priority; staying alive. That said, I don't see him turning it down if someone offered to teach him either, since it is a useful skill to have (kinda overpowered in canon actually. I always wondered what exactly Snape was doing when he was interrupting Harry's spells at the end of HBP). Another option would be that Harry breaks the blocks/they wear off, but that'd definitely require a *very* good explanation, since as far as we know even a weak wizard like Lockhart could cast permanent memory charms that couldn't be removed. Of course there's always the possibility of the blocks being removable by their caster, in which case he just needs to track them down (afaik he doesn't know who cast the spells either, so he might assume it was Dumbledore like I did) and threaten Molly into removing them (I can't see him striking any sort of deal with her, like promising not to take revenge based on what he's seen, though he might just ask outright and see if she does it. I say 'if' since what's behind the blocks might well paint her family in an even worse light, so she could be reluctant on that score). I know I'm dwelling on the memory charms a lot here, but like I've said IMO that was the single worst betrayal he suffered.

Now my memory-charm rant is over, I'd just like to know what happened about Sirius' will. It got mentioned a couple of times up 'til Bill mentioned it in regards to Dumbledore taking money, then it never actually got looked at. I can understand why since he was distracted pretty much constantly from that point on, but is he gonna get round to reading it, or has he completely forgotten about it? If he has and remembers, I hope he doesn't guilt himself horribly over it; I've always had a problem with those fics where Harry stops feeling utterly devestated for a couple of minutes then starts berating himself for 'forgetting Sirius'. I don't think it's likely that he would, but it is possible.

[EDIT]Good luck on your test as well, btw.[/EDIT]

 

Good luck on the test, Jim.

I'm kind of torn here. I can't figure out if I want to be glad that you're updating To Fight the Coming Darkness, or if I want to be mad that you aren't updating this fic. Anyways, whichever comes first, I'll be glad to see it.

 

Err.. No, you're wrong. At least, in the real world you are, as many teenage actors sue their parents for using their money for other purposes. All parents are in charge of their kids financial affairs, all I'm saying is the fact that Remus didn't even ask Harry about how he wanted to use his money is disgusting and immoral. Legally or not, we can't say, as there are many laws regarding such things and most of them aren't very clear, thats why we have trials/hearings. If my grandparents left me money, and my mom used it without my consent, I would feel upset and betrayed, but probably wouldn't do anything because she's my mom, you know?. But, if someone like Remus did that, someone I barely know who's my parents best friend yet never bothered to check on me, I would have done everything in my power to get that money back and get back at both Remus and Dumbledore just on principle alone. The bottom fucking line is, stealing is fucking wrong. All they had to do was ask, and I have no fucking doubt that Harry would let them use the money. If I was in that position I sure as hell would, if they were using it for a good cause, but they decided to be sneaky and manipulative and they deserve to be bitch slapped.

And on another note, I'd much rather you updated To fight the coming darkness, as I like that fic a lot. And as far as you clearing up that Dumbledore wasn't part of the obliviation, I fear you are going to have Harry forgive Dumbledore in some form, as you have Bill defending him, etc, and that will be quite hard for me to stomach.

 

I really like this story. In fact I think I've had it on one of my c2 thingys for a while... I've got to be better at checking for updates on those! My favorite part is how Luna is pulling one over on everyone, she was and is my favorite character. I love how different it is compared to everything else.

~Nenagh

 

I'm with TheIllusiveOne on this. I'd have a hard time continuing to read if something like that happened.

I think the biggest problem with the Bill spiel about money wasn't even that Remus had the right to control the money. (which does piss me off too) But all this crap about scholarship funds. Who cares? What does that have to do with anything? Its great the Potters and the Dumbledores set aside money for educating others, but that doesn't have anything to do with the validity of Dumbledore taking the Black money to fight a war without asking. It shouldn't matter if Dumbledore has money or not. That has nothing to do with asking permission to use someone else's money for something that has nothing to do with school when anyone who knows Harry would know he would give permission. And Harry just kind of stands there and goes: "Oh, he doesn't have money because he is paying for others to go to Hogwarts? Oh, my family is doing the same thing? Then it totally makes sense to take the rest of my money without my consent for something that has nothing to do with education for others when I would have said ok in the first place."

 

And Harry could sue Remus for this, but my point is he can't take Dumbledore to court directly, because what Dumbledore has done is accept money from the person responsible for said money.

No argument there, it *is* disgusting and immoral. Unfortunately, the law in this case is based on technicality, not morality. Plus, for all we know Dumbledore's told Remus that he's already asked Harry if he could have some of the money and was told he could. Dumbles has far more contact with Harry than Remus does, so I doubt Remus'd question it if he were told.

I get the feeling from the fact that it's specifically stated that Remus was left in charge of the money it's more than just a normal 'Harry is a minor and needs an adult to look after his affairs' deal. The impression I had was that Harry has no access to the cash until he turns 17 except via Remus, which is definitely not normal for that situation.

Unfortunately, it's not within your power to get that money back. Dumbledore is *good* at what he does; stealing from a minor, especially a celebrity like the Boy-Who-Lived, would completely screw up his image, so he makes sure what he does is completely above board. In this case, if you tried then what would happen would be you'd sue Remus, you'd get all his worldly possessions which are pretty much zilch, Remus would then probably be sent to Azkaban as well. In the process of doing this, the Order of the Phoenix would end up being dragged into the light since you or Remus would have to tell the court where the money was going, so at best their effectiveness at fighting Voldemort drops completely and they're targetted by Death Eaters and at worst they're arrested and sent to Azkaban as an illegal vigilante organisation.

Yes, what they've done is completely immoral, especially given that Harry would definitely say yes. On the other hand, given all the consequences of trying to do anything about it, is it really worth it over the issue of whether they asked you or just took your answer for granted?

Frankly I really don't see the fic going in that direction, but then I don't see what Bill was doing in that chapter as defending Dumbledore. You can argue that going into the whole sponsorship thing was out of context for the situation, but I see it as Bill clarifying things. Harry was working from the assumption that Dumbles was rich enough to pay for this himself, and yet still chose to take Sirius' money without his consent (I'm referring to it as Sirius' money 'cos there's also the Potter money that Dumbledore can't touch) in which case it's a lot easier to hate him for it. What Bill's pointing out is that Dumbledore simply can't afford to fund the war himself, and so he's using Sirius' money to do so. All of a sudden the issue's gone from what would be a blatant abuse of power and completely unjustifiable to one that is more fundamentally concerned with his lack of respect for Harry. What Bill's done, IMO, is give Harry the information needed to properly figure out what the situation is and what it calls for, he's never said that Dumbledore was *right* to take the money, or that Harry should forgive him for it. I read the 'Your letting this whole issue distract you from what you should really be mad about.' comment more as a case of 'You can't do anything about this so stop dwelling on it and focus on stuff you can do something about', rather than him telling Harry to leave Dumbledore alone. In fact if you took it as that then essentially Bill's saying that Harry should be concentrating more on anger towards his family, which I really can't see him saying.

Honestly, I was a little concerned when shortly after meeting Harry (in chapter 3) Bill said "Hopefully with some time away, you’ll find a way to forgive them", but I was reassured when he told Harry "Don’t forgive it and never forget it." in chapter 5 although I'm not entirely certain where that leaves Bill. I'd imagine that yeah, he'd *like* Harry to forgive his family, but at the same time he knows that what they've done was pretty much unforgiveable and he's not going to try and pressure Harry into it, or even subtly influence him towards it, save by demonstrating that not all the Weasleys are manipulative assholes.

Personally I'd rather see this fic updated instead of To Fight the Coming Darkness, mainly because while I love the original twists the latter contains, the base concept is fairly standard. That's definitely not a bad thing; it's only the most basic post-OotP stuff that's standard and Jbern's writing in it is great, but I still prefer Bungle because it's entirely something new which I've not seen before. Of course, I'm still looking forwards to the Coming Darkness update as well.

I'd write my own responses to Athenia's stuff, but I think it's all pretty much covered here. Obviously I'm not Jbern, or one of his betas, so I don't know what he's got planned and this is all just my idle speculation. Oh, and apologies for the times back there I slipped into second person (saying 'you' instead of 'Harry') but I think the fic's starting to rub off on me. I'd go back and correct them, but I'm too tired to reread all this stuff atm.

 

My two cents:
First, if Dumbledore told Lupin that he had Harry's permission, when he didn't, he is likely to get scorched in court for fabrication/counterfeit or something in those lines. Of course, Remus gets burned as well - it's his duty to check such things. Naturally, Dumbledore could have tricked Remus in thinking he's got permission... but it gets ugly anyway.

Second, on the matter of Bill defending the Headmaster, I belive it has been pointed out: Bill does not advocate forgiveness, but Slytherinness. Instead of going off half-arsed Gryffindor style and doing something stupid, like suing and getting Remus in Azkaban while Dumbles twinkles grandfatherly, Harry should find a way to get his revenge in the best fashion possible. Guilt-trip Remus into doing things Harry's way, use his position as de-facto chief investor in the Order and Prophecy Chosen One to gain control and con Dumbles in a magically binding contract to aid the Order under Harry's say-so? *cackles evilly* How about that?

 

I am with radioactive on that one.

It's a good opportunity to have Harry grow up and show him the real world. Harry feels like they stole from him, which they technically didn't. And Harry has to realize that his anger over the affair is not that they took the money but that they didn't ask.

And that's the old discussion. Harry feels like an adult but clearly isn't yet. The others think of him as a child, which he isn't anymore. It's a very good portrayal of growing up.

And to Remus' doing: I can understand him, he doesn't really have to ask Harry, he just has to manage the money. Harry was a very irritating moody teenager and would have
in his mood denied the money just to spite the others. Why bother if you don't have to?

 

Do you really think Harry would have denied them money before they started erasing his memory and sadness, and began forcing him into relationships merely so that he could feel love? Or do you think only that Remus thought that?

All canon evidence suggests (even durin the moody/mad stage Harry was in during fifth year) that had someone approached him and asked for money for the war he would have given it.

 

This is what we know, but how can Remus know? He doesn't know Harry other than what he is told by other people. He is supposed to be moody and do things without thinking about them first. How can Remus know that that doesn't expand to the money if he catches him with a bad temper. And the whole Remus character is one that avoids conflicts to all costs.

 

Ok. I wasn't sure what you meant with your original statement (whether it was a 'about Remus' statement or 'about Harry') I agree that Remus doesn't know Harry at all and could easily be duped into either believing Dumbledore about Harry not willing to give up the money or simply thinking not asking was the easiest method.

 

Just to let everyone know, I passed my exam this morning. YeeHAW! I can start writing again! I was tempted to enter the summer contest, but with 2 WIP stories, they would suffer if I tried to start a third.

Glad for all the discussion, for the most part the people who are defending Bill are correct in saying that it's not about the money, but about the total lack of respect Dumbledore is giving Harry. Decisions were made with no real thought towards consulting Harry. From Harry's perspective, and that's the only one that will be presented Dumbledore has been running roughshod over his life since age 1. It's high time that crap stops. Those that are concerned about Harry rolling over and forgiving everyone's transgressions can relax a bit. If he were to go back today, there would be no way. Allow Harry to mature through the storyline. It's at least 15-20 chapters before we'll see Hoggy Hogwarts and the usual suspects again. Perhaps Harry will feel differently by then, then again he may not.

Anyway, time to get back to writing.

Jim

 

Congrats! I am VERY pleased that you are able to write again, and would like just express my feelings through a letter.

Jbern,

I love you.

Cordially Yours,
Mr. F

 

Thanks for the congrats Mr. F. Hopefully its a nice platonic love based on your respect for my work. Anything else is just plain creepy!

Jim

 

I think I'll give my thanks too then.

Jbern,

I don't know that well... so I don't hate you...
Congrats!

Platonically yours,
Drago Mortifer

FEAR THE DANCING BANANAS!!!!!
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

 

I personally consider myself a well-wisher, in that I wish you no specific harm. Congratulations!

 

So you wish him generic harm instead?

Seriously though, it's great to have you back Jbern, can't wait to read your next update (of either fic)