Damn, it gets so hard to tell them apart some days >_>.

 

Fool! Shezza IS canon!

If the coin is the medium through which the fallen can influence it's host and the mortal world, then if it is destroyed, where do they go? They could be freed, destroyed, sent to the outside, sent to hell, the possibilities are endless. For that matter, where is the rest of their conciousness? Is it in the Outside?

 

I think the Fallen are actually in the coins. Sorta like genies and bottles, except that they cannot come out. It was Shezza who made up the whole 'the Fallen were banished to Outside' thing.

 

And Jim has said that if the coins are destroyed, the Fallen (who are inside the coins) will be free (or at least, more free).

 

I don't know, the swords aren't on the same league as the coins in my opinion.

There obviously must be a way to destroy the coins otherwise jim wouldn't have even mentioned it. So far he hasn't been one to give us irrelevant info.

I would say that maybe it would take some one of heaven to free the coins. Jims already stated Angels exist... What if one decides to convert and free's a fallen in the process.

I think that might do it.

I'd have to agree that as far as I know it's only man that gets the whole choice deal. Thats what the bible alludes to from what I've read. That's why were different from the beasts... blah blah.

Though I think for jim he might make it so it's possible to convert one. They obviously had to choice to rebel otherwise God made them with the purpose to turn against him.

 

The thing about the Fallen is that it was in their nature to be as they were, and were destined to rebel from the start. Angels cannot change their nature, fact, and God is omniscient, so he had to have known when he created them what would come about.

It is also because of this that they can not be converted, it is against their nature and only humans have the ability to change. So far Jim has stuck to the Bible's word on these things (barring Sue, obviously) and this is almost certainly an important part of the books, considering his plans for the later books and the focus on the Denarians in general. I doubt he's going to change such an important aspect of their nature.

Adding in that the only reason Lash was able to change was because she was merely an imprint on a human mind and was a completely separate entity from Lasciel, it stands to reason that just because Lash could change Lasciel may not.

Sorry if I'm not being as coherent as normal, I'm sleep deprived and on a crappy keyboard >_>.

 

Frankly, the interpretation that it's their nature and thus they cannot change always struck me as odd. It simply seems a bit weird to me that beings that are so important in Christian myths would be so completely deprived of free will.

I've read what I consider a more interesting interpretation some time ago - that basically fallen angels' are more or less irredeemable because they have complete knowledge of God's divine plan. As such once fallen their opinions simply do not change because they have absolute and complete knowledge of any facts required to make the decision whether to fall. Once made, they stick with it because they do not learn any new things that could change their mind, no new facts to spur on new ideas - they simply know them all already.

This gives them at least a theoretical ability to redeem themselves but ensures that it won't happen.

In this scenario Lash could've redeemed herself because she does not posses all the necessary knowledge that led her to fall in the first place - after all, she lives in Dresden's all-to-human brain and human brains do not have infinite storage capacity.

Just my 2 cents.

 

It was stated that angels and demons have souls in Small Favor.

 

Where did you read that? I never read anything like that in the Bible. As far as I know the repentance thing is only something God offered to mankind. Not angelkind. I am pretty sure on that.

Nope. The reason the Denarians have souls is that they are humans. Angels are all soul and no body, and nothing was said of demons. But scince the denarians were once angels, it is probable the fallen have souls.

Impossible. Nothing but God has the full knowledge of His Divine plan. I am pretty sure that Angels do not know it. Only God.
Also, we know for a fact that Lash's mental ability goes beyond Dresdens. She saisd she has Lasciels knowledge at her disposal. Besides, just knowledge isn't enough to make a desision. Decisions are made with hearts as much as minds.

 

Wait...so you're both agreeing and disagreeing with me on the same topic. The Fallen have soul's as they are former angels. They can't not have souls, while having souls.

Your statement makes no sense to me.

 

In Small Favor, Bob said that angels were made of "soul", if you really think about it, it could mean that they are made of souls but don't have one themselves.

Or not. Just what I think.

 

Uh, no. That's not what was said.

Furthermore, your idea makes no sense whatsoever.

 

How would that work? You are made of flesh but you don't have any flesh?

 

Human is made of Spirit, Body and Soul. Angels are Spirits. Soul and Spirit, although different in some way are used interchangeable in scripture. No one knows the exact difference and thus we have the age old question - Do Angels have a Soul?.

When I asked my Grandfather about it, he told me this. Angels don't have a Soul but they can derive power from the Souls present in Heaven. More number of Souls - More power to them and vise versa. That's why Lucifer currupting Humans to pull more souls into Hell to become more powerful. He described the cause and effect of Free Will and I don't understand most of it. Thoughts?

Never Never is full of spirits, they don't have a Soul. In order to enter Mortal world, they need a body made of ectoplasm. So we can say Soul and Spirit are different in Dresden Files.

Back to the topic of Coins, can Mordite (Deathstone) destroy a Denarian Coin?

 

The Denarians arent former angels. They are still Angels. Just angels who have fallen from Heaven.

 

This. A human who is a Democrat is not a former human. They are a human who is also a Democrat. In the same way, a Fallen Angel is merely an angel that has fallen. It doesn't stop being an Angel (at least not to the point of switching species. A Fallen is probably not considered an angel socially).

 

Elder Gruff to Ape Denarian. They are 'politely' referred to as angels (Elder One) though he does make a distinction when he gets a bit angry (Fallen One).

 

I don't think the coins can be destroyed so long as the Fallen's influence on them remains. You would need to sever the link between the Fallen that is on the Outside, and the coin. Maybe with a badass circle and some big mojo will power. Once severed the coin should be just an ordinary coin, and thus easily destroy-able.

People keep thinking of the Coins as a magic lamp, but I see it more as a two way radio. The Fallen are trapped wherever the Outsiders are, with the coins their only method of exerting their will on Earth.

 

I think it's impossible to destroy the Coins or it's link with the Fallen. According to Wiki,

Destroying the link between Fallens and Coins is based on who trapped the Fallens in the Coins. If it's God or Satan, then the chance of destroying it is impossible. No amount of mojo or circle can top the power of God/Satan. If it's possible, why the Church stores them in heavily warded boxes?. They can ask WC or Some bigger power to destroy the link between them. It's an endless struggle, Knights and Fallens will fight each other till the end of the world - Just like God/Satan, Good/Evil.

 

*Sigh*

I like the Denarian Trilogy as much as the next guy, but it's at times like this that it gets really annoying. The things said in the Trilogy are not, and never will be, canon. The Fallen are not trapped Outside. They are trapped within their coins. According to Jim Butcher, it was Lucifer who put them with in the coins. Jim Butcher also said that if the coins were destroyed, the Fallen within them would be freed, which is Very Bad.

Once again, I will ask that people refrain from associating Shezza's works with cannon. Please and thank you.