I got a challenge from a Dumbledore lover evidentally in a review for my fic, who stated he'd shoot down every idea there was about Dumbles being manipulative.

I'm 100% certain the old bastard is even more so a puppeteer then Riddle is, what do you all think? I'm recapping all of the points I've listed below in my story, but to recap.


List points and poll plz.

-No way in hell he protected the Sorc. stone with trials a 11 year old with no prior experiance with magic could get through, and expect VOLDEMORT or one of his followers to be held back by it. Then he just magically reappears to take care of Harry? Remember he never got the owl Hermione sent.

-He doesn't know where the Chamber is, and is supposedly always aware of what goes on in the school, yet is not aware of a giant snake wandering around in the school? It mostly stuck to the pipes, but it came out several times for attacks. How the hell does Hermione figure it all out, and yet he is left mostly clueless?

(It's mostly JKRs horrible writing for this plot point in book 2. Why the hell would Harry go alone to fight a deadly monster instead of asking for REAL help, when Lockhart has shown all through the year he knows dick all about defence?)

-Hogwarts was a revolving door of unauthorized penetrations in year 3.

-Year 4, for a Auror he's supposedly known for years, not to mention other various Dumbledore quirks the man has, how does he not know Moody is a Death Eater?

-Year 5 totally leaves him out to dry, screws him by sticking him with Snape and Umbridge, does nothing, runs away from the school when he should of stayed and fought, or obliviated the whole damned lot. Does nothing to help Sirius other then telling him to stay @ Grimmauld.


Theres alot more, in various interactions they've had over the years, i'm just jjotting down the major ones.

 

he does not train harry to fight voldemort. clams power of love....if it exist it a passive power not voilent enough to kill voldemort

 

You have some good points. Many of Dumbledore’s actions do seem highly suspicious when analyzed. But I tend to think it’s more a matter of incompetence rather than him being a master manipulator, purely because I don’t see Rowling envisioning Dumbedore as anything other than he appears; uber wise wizard/senile old fool (depending on your opinion). That said I am highly suspicious of his motives, particularly given his many questionable decisions. But everyone in the Wizard world seems to be completely stupid, so I don’t think we can necessarily judge him based on that.

 

In a way I think Dumbledore might be slightly manipulative. Hear me out here. Harry and Riddle have so many things in common. Half-bloods, orphan, abused as a child (maybe not so much physically but definately mentally). Now I beleive Dumbledore had said that it was his fault for not catching Riddle and trying to stop him from going dark. What if Dumbledore is setting everything up to help Harry.

Kinda like "tested in the heat of battle". For example, he sends Fawkes to help Harry. He sends the sorting hat and sword, etc. He is making Harry into the hero that he needs to be. Now that the prophecy is out there, hopefully he will bring the training to the next level and actually teach Harry something instead of having him learn it himself.

Now I do feel that he cares about Harry, so any manipulations he does is for Harry's own good. Kinda like a parent that wont let you stay over at a freinds house cause they know they are apart of the 'wrong crowd'.

Does that make sense? Does anyone understand what I'm trying to say?

 

Have anyone thought that maybe Dumbledore knows that his days are numbered and he is going to die soon. Because of that he has trained/manipulated Harry too really on himself and not on the great Dumbledore so when the time comes Harry want panic when the greatest wizard for the light dies like everyone else probably will and he can resume the role Dumbledore had.

 

Yes, I do. Tested in the heat of battle means testing something in a dangerous situation. If Dumbledore was standing beside him holding his hand saying, "okay, now thrust the sword upward into his mouth afterward I'll give you a lemon drop", then Harry wouldn't have learned anything. When it comes to teaching the savior of the wizarding world how to do things on his own, how to be independent, Ginny is expendable.

Zevrillion, I think you are correct. Harry is being molded to replace Dumbledore.

Hmm..... It says that the Basilisk used the pipes to get around. I can understand some larger pipes that carry the whole buildings fluid/waste away, but what about the smaller ones? Moaning Myrtel was killed in the bathroom. A bathroom that has some sinks and some toilets. The sinks incoming water pipe would be about 1/2 to 1 inch in diamater. The drain on the sink would be 2 to 2 1/2. The toilet would have a 3 or 4 inch pipe. How the hell does a Basilisk use the plumbing exactly?

 

Moaning Murtle died in the same toilet as the opening to the chamber of secrets is in so my guess is that the Basilisk came through the opening to CoS and not through a toilet.

 

I think dumbledore IS a manipulative bastard, not to the degree fanon shows him as, but definitely manipulative... too many coincidences and such...

and ill agree with dumbledore testing harry but i think its more guilt on dumb's part and trying a nature vs nurture theory, to find out that there was nothing at all he could have done to stop riddle....

ohh.. except maybe... showing a shred of intelligence and knowing that what killed myrtle wasnt a gaint fucking spider...

 

Maybe he doesn’t try to manipulate people. He just doesn’t have time to think through his decision and look out for Harry because he spends all his time reading fanfiction. That my guess. If a wizard reads muggle newspapers he might also have a magic running computer and an internet connection.

 

(Edit:Rereading this It comes out a bit hostile, but it wasn't meant to be, I'm just describing it for everyone that bugs me about this crap, so don't take it personal Srispg)

The fact that the trials played to their specific talents alone was pure BS, and stands out the most as horrible writing, and horrible security. Not to mention being a glaring example of Dumbledore making things happen.

I ask you all, why would he not Fidelus the damned room the stone was in??? Gringotts is supposed to be one of THE most secure locations ever existed. And Voldemort got to where it was stored... just AFTER it had been moved? Yeah right. So seeing this, good old Albus puts in somewhere any trained wizard could get to easily... suuuure. I agree about the possibility of the wards however.

The fact that he'd take the word of Riddle, who he was already suspicious of (Riddles Memory in CoS) is yet another utter trash moment. Dumbledore is supposed to be so great and powerful, and yet he constantly makes idiotic mistakes. The fact that a great majority of the wizarding world is like this is a good point, but doesn't excuse it when we are supposed to see him as the ultimate good guy. As for him knowing everything, read the books, he's always popping up out of nowhere, always presses for information, and only when there is info to tell. You never see him ask about something, unless it's already happened, and then it's with that "twinkle" in his eye. He knows.

I wouldn't say hero complex, or trouble with authority at all, He's reacted/acted as he has been treated in kind. Yes he's mind numbingly stupid at times (I mean Gilderoy?!?! jesus he could of brought FILCH for all the damned worth... not to mention they all knew Gilderoy was useless)

I counted Wormtail in this year, when fairly Peter had been there the whole time. Point still stands, it's easier to get in that place then a Thai hookers pants on Marine shore leave.

And yet, Dumbledore had kept Harry hidden away to err on the side of caution, since he knew Voldemort was coming back sooner or later. After Year 1 AND 2, there is no excuse that he did not check his people a hell of a lot more then he did. Snapes not been found out because of his training and sheer Slytherin nature. (I do personally think Voldemort doubts Snape, and only keeps him there to get small bits of info about the Order, I can't see Snape living till the end of book 7)

Considering he's head of their courts I find it hard to believe that he couldn't of done something. If nothing more then called in favors to get the toad out of his school. Sirius being brought forward, slapped some truth serum in front of a courtroom, or even a private setting of trusted judges was not out of the questions.

Harry was an idiot for not practicing? Practicing what?! "Clear your mind" "How?" "Just do it idiot?" Please explain to me what there was he was supposed to practice? Snape used the training as an excuse to mind rape him.

Not to mention the gaping ass plot hole JKR left open. Snape saw Harry did not grow up the pampered prince Snape thought he did, and yet continues to treat him like because of his father, and because his perception of him still did not change.

That is a good point, but after having most of the people basically kiss his ass through 5 books, and stating several times Dumbles is the ONLY person Voldie fears, having him an incompetant, stupid, weak leader, makes it kind of pointless doesnt it?

I'd rather go for manipulative, trying to force Harry to learn on his own, then see the man as a utter retard who just happened to get a lucky curse on a dark lord awhile back.

SHHHHH Zev, don't let out plot twists for my story! Hmm now I gotta figure out what I'm going to do with that spoon =(

I posted my thoughts on this in my other thread about the next major canon guy to die is.


Now when I say manipulative, everyone jumps to that stupid ass conclusion I'm talking Evil Dumbles. I'm talking someone who is playing everyone in a well executed chess game. For good OR for evil. You really think he just "saved" Snape because? Hell no, he saw the man could be used to spy.

You think he let a half giant/werewolf in his school b/c he thought Hagrid/Lupin was cute? No. He may believe in second chances, but that more then likely was to help with goodwill. You don't see other half giants or werewolves in there now do you? Both projects failed. Hagrid was expelled, Lupin disappeared for years after James and Lily died.

Ty vash I knew I forgot something. Hagrid runs in with murdered chickens in CoS. Does it take a godamned rocket scientist to figure it out? Petrification... hmm one of the worst things to a Basilisk is dead.. Salazar's chamber... he talked to snakes... hmm oh wait, yeah it's still Hagrids fault, lets let him get chucked into Azkaban for the hell of it!

No matter how stupid Harry has been, he should of sat his ass down, spell o taped him to a chair, and MADE him talk, after finding out he was a parselmouth.


I just simply cannot believe the man can be that stupid and have all those titles, and that much power. More power to those of you here and in my reviewers, that do.

 

Dumbledore is more manipulative than Voldemort (or maybe just more savvy :wink: )

Anyway, let's go through.
Book 1:

1.) Leaving Harry with the Dursleys. Dumbledore ADMITS he knew what was going on there in "Half-Blood Prince" (early on in that scene they have together) and he says it in Order of the Phoenix at the prophecy sequence where he says "I've watched you more closely than you can imagine" Then he sends Hagrid to pick-up Harry, and Hagrid tells Harry almost all "dark wizards are Slytherins."





2.) Weasley's a family that has gone to Hogwarts themselves, picked up their kids, and goes their every year for the past 11 years (do the math including Bill's tenure their) and they suddenly CAN'T remember where the entrance is?!?! THis was a set-up, so Harry would be introduced to the Weasley's, an all Gryfinddor "light" family." This was the ideal place for Harry in Dumbledore's mind.

3.) If Dumbledore realized the SECOND he was in London that he should return, why didn't he just make a portkey to his office like he did in Order of the Phoenix. It would have been MUCH faster.

4.) I still don't buy it. I mean Hermione may be smart, but something an 11 year-old can get through? How about some Dark Detectors like a foe glass that's linked to prevent anyone perceived as a foe from entering? Dumbledore's powerful enough to do that. Or how about having a house-elves take shifts in a middle passage, so a professor could be alerted. Have Stinky or whoever sit in a room just after the Devil's Snare, and the second they see the door knob turn, they use their special apparition and go notify Dumbledore, and if he's not there, then McGonagall? I JUST thought of this, and Dumbledore, and his teachers, actually CONSIDERED the safety of the stone before, and they couldn't think of something better?!

Now, obviously book 1 has the most evidense of Dumbledore's manipulations. I mean, it does cover All of Harry's first ten-years, and his introduction to the Wizarding world ( a very important first impression). I mean, Ron, he met on the TRAIN! and Hermione he became friends with within two months. (Halloween)

How would Harry be different if someone told Harry, "Slytherin is the house of people who have dreams and ambitions. Who want aren't content to just let things happen TO them, but who make things happen. Slytherin is the home of people who like to know what they're doing and consider their actions." These are all true statements. Would Harry think so poorly of Slytherin and said to the hat, "Anywhere but Slytherin." I mean my God, the kid's been there ten minutes and already he's sure he doesn't want to be in a house based on the information of an starry-eyed 11-year old red head, and a gullible, naive, and (lets face it) stupid half-giant?! That is what he has learned. Oh yeah and he didn't like Malfoy after talking to him for 30 seconds without Ron Weasley present in Madam Malkins.

I'll cover book two tomorrow or the next day assuming someone responds to this.

 

go for it, I had several pages of things that stuck out there, but I didn't want to overflood the thread with my evidence.

HBP sums it up enough, anyone that's read it, and has more then one functioning brain cell can see the manipulation in that POS.

 

Personally I believe Dumbledore to be a Master Manipulator... But then again all Leaders/Generals/Politicians are. After all the strongest leader has unquestioning loyalty from his allies, and is feared by his enemies. Dumbledore managed to have both more or less.

As Nicolo Machiavelli says "If you cannot have both fear and love, then you should chose fear."

To bad Dumbledore didn't listen.

 

aye first gain throught fear the turn it in to a respectible amount of love

 

Actually it's kind of funny. The Prince is really Machiavelli's plea for the unification of Italy... It has just been woefully misinterpreted since the day it was published.

 

"great minds are hated when alive and treasured when dead"(created by me cause i just thought of it but someone else might of said it so whatever)