So, today, I came across an interesting event that happened in the Tumblr-sphere. Turns out, some authors' fanfiction were being used in a university class (not an actual 100% legit university class, details below) without their knowledge. Said university class also turned out to have mandated "criticism that is constructive" in the form of story reviews and so one of the authors found out about it and is now signal boosting and making a huge fuss on Tumblr/AO3, etc.

Said tumblr post is linked below, and also the review/comment that started all of it (other comments of that fic also discuss this issue)
http://waldorph.tumblr.com/post/111793995438/so-your-fic-is-required-reading-hahahanope
https://archiveofourown.org/comments/24111170

By the way, the class is a "Decal" class at UC Berkeley, which is basically an undergraduate-run class that doesn't count for major credit. Here is an featured article about the class that focuses on the kink/sexual aspects of fanfiction.

This has obviously turned into a hot topic in the fandom/fanfiction corner of the internet, and there have been threads on reddit discussing this on /r/fanfiction, /r/yawriters, and /r/fandomnatural.

The university class aside, which seems to have been planned with little foresight and consideration and could have been executed better, there's a particular focus of discussion in this reaction, and that is the role of constructive criticism in the community. A lot of the people on Tumblr/AO3, including the primary author involved, seem to have a very negative and "critical" view of constructive criticism. Basically, the gist of the general opinion is that constructive criticism can be harmful to writers' motivations and that constructive criticism, unless otherwise asked for, should not be given.

This view hasn't really sat well with me, and I wanted to spark a discussion about constructive criticism and its merits in fanfiction on DLP. DLP has been one of the harshest communities I've participated in regarding fanfiction, and I'd like to think that my fanfiction experience has been heightened by that. The main issue involving the university class is unsolicited concrit, and much of DLP (the Library and the Recycling Bin/Almost Recommended/Trash Bin in particular) is built on that foundation. Obviously, solicited concrit, such as in Wba, is a wonderful tool for improvement and reader engagement, but is there a problem with unsolicited concrit?

Anyways, I just wanted this thread to
a) discuss the drama/event that has happened, which is fun in and of itself because it's a weird situation involving fanfiction in university classes
and
b) discuss the role of unsolicited concrit in fanfiction

Edit: BTW, here is a link to the course description/syllabus, for whoever is interested.
http://www.decal.org/3390

 

If they don't want constructive criticism they shouldn't post on ff.net. It has reviews, which have no practical purpose beyond constructive criticism.
As for posting the stories here, Ive seen some authors complain in their profile about it, and I do think its probably at least rude to post here before asking them.

 

a) The authors should have been asked permission, if only as a courtesy. Less drama all around.

b) Those who dislike unsolicited criticism are basically saying 'If you don't have anything nice to say, you should keep your mouth shut'.
Criticism is a part of our life at school, at work, in our personal lives, etc... As long as it doesn't involve insults and threats, people have to learn to deal with it and use it to improve themselves.

It's called being mature.

 

This is ridiculous. Anyone who's spent any time on FF.net knows proper critique of a fic is incredibly rare, but to actually say it's offensive and uncalled for? The teacher should have asked permission as a courtesy - although at the end of the day it's a fanfic published for free for anyone to read, so even if you didn't want them to study it, how are you going to stop it? - but this reaction is over the top.

 

Some of the fics on that list are truly fucking horrible, so I can guess what the reviews were like, and why the author isnt happy their fics are being studied

 

Here's a list of events, btw, as compiled by the initial author.

http://waldorph.tumblr.com/post/111844405768/whatre-we-calling-this-theoryofficgate-i-like

Edit: and it's being called TheoryofFicGate. great.

 

now their not even trying

 

a)
Is every fucking fic on that list SLASH??? YES IT FUCKING IS. Oh my god.

b)
That Waldorf guy is extremely overreacting. That said, I think that good CC is very hard to write, because to CC be truly constructive, the author has to be somewhat sensitive. The number of times I've seen putdowns disguised as CC is too damn high, though.

 

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

First of all the thought of a university class that focuses on kink-fanfiction is utterly bizarre. I could imagine some kind of FanFicSoc exists at some Universities and might even have 'recommended reading' but an actual class confuzzles me. But hey-ho, whatever, each to their own, etc. etc. On to the real stuff. Asking permission would have been a nice courtesy but it's obviously not necessary given how the works are all public domain.

I think the issue of constructive criticism is a strange one. There seem to be many different interpretations of what exactly it means. I certainly disagree with the bloke linked in the OP. Being told that everything is awesome isn't particularly helpful unless you truly are the second coming of Charles Dickens or something. Oh sure it's a nice ego boost (I'm the next coming of Charles Dickens!) but it's unlikely to help you improve in any way.

Example: "Awesome story! I can't wait for the next chapter, your handling of the relationship is wonderful."

Then there's what I might call 'mid-range' constructive criticism where you keep the scale of the criticism fairly small and within the bounds of the work. Things like picking out grammatical errors, poor word choice, ambiguous phrasing or even larger structural issues where perhaps characters seem to fall OOC or their reactions are just plain weird.

I think of it like giving feedback on an academic essay. You can say 'you need to clarify this point' but you don't say 'your subject is inane and does not conform to my preferences, change it'. I think this is extremely useful criticism to hear, reading it allows the writer to improve both the story and their own writing simultaneously. Those who get their feelings hurt at this kind of criticism probably need to grow a pair.

Example: "It feels like your characters all speak in the same voice, Dumbledore is not noticeably different in tone from Harry and I feel that makes the dialogue seem shallow. Your grammar is generally good but you occasionally mix up 'your' and 'you're'. Also I feel like Hermione's extreme reaction to situation X was added just to create unneeded drama and feels out of character."

Finally there's a more ambiguous category of what I'll call conceptual criticism. This is where the underlying premise of the story or characterisation is questioned by the reviewer. The most obvious would be something along the lines of complaining about the pairing in a romance or the choice of PoV characters. The issue here is that it often presents issues that cannot simply be 'fixed'. They are inherent in the fundamental design of the story and to fix them is simply to make a different story.

It's could still be considered constructive; you're aiding the writer by giving them guidance on the kinds of ideas that you think are likely to work and the ones that probably won't. In your view you may be saving them from a lot of wasted time. The possible issue arises if the writer attempts to act upon that advice and often the only 'solution' is to give the work up as a failed experiment. That seems a terrible pity. Well, usually. I won't shed a tear if Harry/Draco #1,102,339,482 gets abandoned.

Example: (In a story centred around a H/Hr romance) I won't read this because it's Harry/Hermione and that's been done to death. Please change this. Perhaps pair him with Padma instead, that would be more interesting and much less cliché.

But ultimately it's gonna happen, you just have to roll with it. Read em, sanity check em then consider acting on the sensible ones. Or don't. It's up to you.
​

 

I agree with B), and I'd even go so far as to say that I don't even have a problem re: A) that they didn't notify the authors. I mean, yes, common courtesy, sure. But we're not telling JKR that we're talking about Harry Potter - why should a university class tell the author of a (self)published story that they're discussing it?

Once you put a story out into the world (where you're not just passing it around to friends and family, you've put it on the internet with no bar to entry), that story is fair game to be talked about.

All the places being discussed in these articles where you can post fanfiction have some sort of comment/review feature. It's built in to the system. By putting something up on FFN or AO3 you're saying, to the world, "RESPOND TO THIS." After that, the gates are open. You don't get a say in who reads it, what they think about it, or what they say about it.

Now.

While I believe everything I just wrote, I also acknowledge that there is some nuance to the situation.

I see a couple facets that people have brought to the table:

1. (Most? Some? All?) fanfiction isn't designed to stand up to the intense scrutiny of collegiate-level literary analysis.

2. The comments of people who aren't versed in the fandom come off as tone deaf and frequently miss the point.

3. By subjecting a fic to intense scrutiny and analysis, you run the risk of scaring off, depressing, or otherwise negatively impacting aspiring writers who could potentially go on to do great things.

4. The difference between published-for-profit work and fanfiction is that the comments and social aspect of fic are essentially part of the fic itself, and by engaging in criticism that's coming from an extreme outsider's perspective, you're irresponsibly barging into a tango competition and starting to do the MC Hammer dance - i.e. you're bringing the wrong tools to the table.

First of all, a hearty laugh to people who think the discourse in English 301 is miles above the quality of your average FFN fic.

Second: the easy, tempting answer is to say, "shut up and deal with it; you don't get to edit the type of feedback you get when you publish something, you just get feedback."

I'm not very sympathetic to points 1 and 3, but 2 and 4 are compelling. As in all things, context is key, and before you open your mouth and speak in any situation, (especially when it's not just your mouth, but words that you type and are there, forever, on the internet) you need to "read the room."

For example, take MattSilver's The Blackman Trilogy. A reasonable person who's read the room, gotten the vibe of DLP, and then read that story is going to realize that an essay deconstructing how Andromeda Dawes offering to sleep with Sirius is an undermining of her character and a flagrant assault on feminism is not an appropriate response to it.

There are definitely social norms and unstated rules built into the fanfiction community, and to just barge in and comment in a tone deaf way is just as annoying as it is to post fics with that attitude. I don't see it as "wrong" or "bad" though, just annoying.

I very much disagree with the "new authors are precious snowflakes who need nurturing and positive feedback only" vibe in the original post. If you're a new author and you're actually interested in writing, then you're fucking hungry for responses that get into the nitty-gritty of what works and what doesn't. You're thrilled when someone from DLP goes line-by-line and breaks down in exquisite detail exactly where you went wrong.

Because it's specific, it's concrete. You can point to it - "there, right there, that's the part you need to fix. And everything like it." And then you can either disagree with it, or agree, but either way, you've got a handhold, something to grab on to and think about. It's a thousand times better than bland enthusiasm.

HOWEVER - read the room. Context matters. There are plenty of fics where the author is basically flailing around in the pool. Giving them a seven-part lecture on the technical nuances of the butterfly stroke isn't going to do them a lick of good.

This is one of those situations where common sense goes pretty far.

 

Pulling a number out of my ass I would say that anything from 90 to 99% of fanfiction (dependent on fandom) can not withstand serious literary criticism. Most can't do it and even a lot of stuff in the library can't do it.

 

Personally, I don't think I get enough constructive criticism, even on DLP. Granted, I've earned a small amount of leeway where youse guys are concerned, but even now, after 4 accepted Anthology entries and 200,000 words + posted to generally good reviews, I still wonder what people think about particular passages of my story. I wouldn't expect anyone to spend hours nitpicking it, or a college-level course on one of my fics (lol) but I find it EXTRA MOTIVATION if someone explains what they liked or did not like about my story.

My personal favorite reviews are a little of both. For example, Newcomb in "An Unquenchable Thirst":

For a few reasons:

1. Newcomb is a very good author (one of my favorites, which is a bonus), but even if he wasn't, he at least explains the issues he had with the story with some kind of depth.

2. He doesn't directly find fault with the 'concept' but with the actual story-telling.

3. He's giving me HELP with FIXING the problem. One of the biggest issues people have with getting reviews through FF.net is accurately conveying the reader's problem with the story, but giving no advice as to how to fix it or keep it from happening later.

Usually, when I review someone's work, I try to offer a way out. If it's in WbA, usually the author can go back and change things with no problem, but once its in 'print, its less likely to be changed. Telling authors that they wasted their time outright doesn't do them any justice or help them, plus they'll be making the RAGEFACE and are more likely to defend their story.

Saying it kindly, while complimenting other areas of the fic, is a much better way to go. Of course, some authors can't even take that, and even people that are good at receiving criticism get annoyed with other people's remarks from time to time. I often wonder if Rowling reads these forums (or forums like it) and goes:

"YOU KNOW WHAT?! MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE WRITTEN FOUR YEARS OF GINNY/HARRY AND FUCKED OFF ALL THE COOL MAGIC/HORCRUXES/DUMBLEDORE'S HISTORY. THEN WOULD YOU BE HAPPY?!

 

It's the "wait, you're serious? Then let me laugh more" response that fired for me as I read the posts.

I love the way the points are presented, ending with "but if you want to use my story's comments for further discussion, please go ahead." It's not like it would increase the review count... ;D


So... Should I start adding "yes, you can leave constructive criticism on my works" everywhere?

/sarcasm


The issue is perhaps a lot more clear cut when you see the DLP environment, and a tiny tiny drop a bit more ambiguous with people who only want to hear good comments. In a way I understand that wish of self-validation, to be able to believe your story is top tier, just like all the others - that's might be what moves an author to improve and write more, but...

At some point you have to learn to both read your works as if they are not your own and take the criticism that you or others dish out.


In other words, you have to grow up.

 

First reaction: "Tumblr's a fucking hugbox, what else is new?"

Second reaction: "Great, more useless shit sucking up money in universities."

 

An undergraduate-run class doesn't exactly use any university resources other than maybe a minimal amount of paper and a few MB of server space.

 

Then here, let me fix RA's post.