They're two completely different things.

Using Zilean's rank 5 slow as an example:

55% Slow for 5.5s

Assuming Zephyr and Boots 3, would become:

41.25% slow for 3.575s

 

Hmm, fair enough, just assumed they might stack seeing as Tenacity reduces all CC bar suppression/knock-up's. Makes sense that they don't though, was throwing around a few idea's for an Udyr game, it can wait in that case.

 

They do stack. Well, sort of. Stacking isn't really the right word because they do different things, but they do work together.

Tenacity items will reduce how long you're slowed for. You can have only one. This stacks with the Tenacious mastery to give you 44.75% reduction in CC duration.

Boots of Swiftness will reduce how much you're slowed by. The unique passive also stacks with the Relentless mastery to give you 36.25% reduction in slow potency.

 

For anyone buying armor items ever again:

Armor Comparisons

Or, in short, never buy the damn Tmail unless you're a magic tank with MPen and are crushing the enemy team.

 

I honestly thought Thornmail was removed with the season 3 item changes.

 

Just did Jungle Karthus because I've always admired Azingy's builds/playstyle. Need to play more games with him to make a conclusive judgement, but holy fuck hes pretty decent. I kinda snowballed that game ending at 17/8/22.

 

Honestly i've seen the math quite a few times, but every time i've built a thornmail it's been one of the best buys in the game. Thornmail means two things: you have more armor than any other item, and the autoattackers on the enemy team either attack you at deficit (they will never heal more than they deal to you) and you can kill them or they don't attack you at all. In either case if you are the person who has the thornmail, you should be coming out ahead.

Thornmail is not designed to be the end-all answer to attack damage carries -otherwise it would have been removed- but it is designed to give you the ability to deal with an opponent who insists on attacking you in conjunction with other items (such as randuin's omen, frozen heart, etc.) and combined with your own DPS to kill the enemy ADC, which is the only person you should really be buying thornmail against in the first place. The point of thornmail is that it prevents the enemy ADC from healing as you kill him through your own, personal DPS. How often have you been kited by an ADC as a bruiser and watched him heal to full in front of your eyes, even though you have frozen heart and/or randuin's omen? Thornmail is in the game to prevent that from happening, nothing more or less. If by some stroke of luck your opponent is so stupid as to not have any lifesteal in the first place, you come out so much farther ahead.

By the way, there is no other item in the game that can fill the niche of "negates the opponent's ability to heal through their own damage" while remaining a defensive item. This becomes doubly useful if you have ignite (cutting their heal in half again).

When to buy thornmail:

When you are stacking armor because you have to deal with a fed ADC who will autoattack you because you are the biggest threat to their survival.

When you have already built another defensive item (armor+life) and need to be even tankier against physical damage.

When your opponent has no natural sustain and you do (and deals physical damage).


When not to buy thornmail:

As a one off defensive item.

When you are not the main threat to the enemy ADC's survival and/or the focus of the enemy team's physical assault.

You are facing a variety of mixed damage sources.


While I can respect the versatility and utility of randuin's omen and frozen heart, over my cold, bleeding body will I ever build sunfire cape as an armor option over thornmail. Especially late game, where if you do not immediately kill an ADC they will kite and heal (by attacking you, by the way) until you are dead and they have full life.

Here's some common sense for you:

You are this Garen. You saw the opposing hypercarry getting fed in bottom lane, and after getting a brutalizer and establishing lane dominance against your AD opponent, you decide to itemize to crush the opposing Kogmaw (who for the sake of argument is running the 55% crit chance 500 raw DPS build the article is using).

Ignoring the fact that your W has an on-active damage reduction, and your ninja tabi passive your effective physical health is:15,621. After 50% armor penetration, your actual effective health is 9627. So as a general idea, it should take an ADC about 4 seconds to kill you (2402*4=9608 ). In that time with thornmail, not only have you returned a staggering 2880 magic damage from the thornmail, but your own measley contribution of 852 physical damage (not including any spells you may hit with). As opposed to if you had built sunfire cape+randuins (pre pen EHP: 14862 post pen EHP:9472) where you get 160 magic damage plus your 852 physical damage in that same four seconds.

Three things to note from the above passage; first is that with randuins and sunfire you are dead -but not so with thornmail+randuins-, and second is that the DPS output from RO+TM is over 3 times (3732 vs 1012) higher than RO+SF, and third that this is the best possible scenario for you, the bruiser as your opponent has allowed you to gap close and deliver your damage for the entirety of the time they are attacking you. In less optimal situations (such as you never deliver your payload of damage and are kited) you will always deal more damage from thornmail than sunfire, and always have more effective health from it.



TLR Thornmail is a second defensive item against a physical attacker who cannot ignore you. Randuins is the king of defensive items vs AD damage. The combination of both items are designed to provide you with the survivability and tools to destroy an enemy ADC carry who focuses you.

 

Sunfire all game, every game.

 

Sunfire is very strong mid-game, and is almost exclusively bought by splitpushers, notable among them being shen, zac, olaf, etc.
If a top laner can afford a Sunfire relatively early, then he's likely to win trades by that extra damage, bully the opponent out of lane, and easily push and get tower.
After laning phase, it's splitpush time.

 

Amumu's probably the best & arguably one of, if not the only jungler who can buy Sunfire as a rush item too due to his passive and how it works with Sunfire.

Sunfire's one of the last items I tend to buy when stacking armor as Randuins is far better and a little damage after boots, Randuins & Bulwark/Locket never hurts. Sunfire's much more of a diving item than a peeling one I find, though all damage is naturally good damage when you're dealing it. Just makes Baron dances problematic when clearing wards.

It's not a terrible item, but the cot increase really killed it off unless you're a split pusher/Renekton.

 

Nasus, Renekton, Sejuani, Amumu, and Nautilus all have great kits for Sunfire cape, allowing them to stack extra DoT damage combined with one of their abilities. Besides, they all have the CC to warrant getting some survivability with damage as each one can wreck team fights if they time ults, etc correctly. I usually build Ancient Golem and Runic Bulwark at a minimum on my junglers as well.

The only time I would consider getting a Thornmail is if I were playing a bruiser champion who did not have any strong CC to speak of, and the enemy ADC is fed. Otherwise, I much prefer Sunfire, Randuin's and Frozen Heart as they can go in any spot and I don't feel bad about purchasing the item. Thornmail is very niche, but certainly is effective.

 

I build Sunfire on Shen cause I like HP.

 

Would Ez's Q proc Tmail?

 

Yea, every thing that is considered on-hit will proc Tmail. (E.g, Warwicks ult will proc tmail even though it's all magic damage)

 

Don't think I've built Sunfire on anyone other than Amumu as a jungler in the longest time, I tend to go Golem > Aegis > Boots > Locket/Randuins > Damage item. After that... It's a possibility but, unlikely.

Naut I almost always get an Abyssal unless I'm the only AP in which case it's full tank mode with a RoA or something, very rare I ever have 6 item Naut games.

Thornmail is only ever an option against a full AD team, -or- their damage dealers are being retarded and have 3 - 4 items, but no LW yet, so it's an easy option to buy it and go ruin their day face to face.

 

I don't even build Sunfire on Amumu anymore. I just rush Liandry's while I wait for the inevitable 20 minute surrender. Almost every game where I play Amumu, the enemy team is hardcore raging over Amumu making it through the bans.

Silver tier OP.

 

Alright. This week's invites for that plat 3s thing is done. Got room for 4 more.

 

Playing on that Mobafire tournament with Team Mobile right now. Lets hope I get some more free rp!

Edit: GG Couldn't make it. Screwed around too much and lost game.

 

Kellros and I have a Nautilus build that is hysterical. Defensive boots of some sort or mobi, Spirit of the Elder Lizard, Sunfire Cape, and Liandry's. Then we just watch a person's health trickle down to nothing, getting shredded from a few hits with W up.

We call him: Dotilus.

 

Do you add abyssal scepter to that build then for more MR reduction and defense? Might as well I guess.