God damn it, tragic. Leave the game already so I can beat you with Irelia.

As for the Akali vs Shen thing.

If Shen hits taunt, he pulls all of one auto out of akali, maybe at that depending on the distance of the taunt, before the Shroud's auto-attack nullifier kicks in and stops it.

 

Well, we tested the Akali v. Shen. And I'm sorry that I misunderstood your first post. Rather than saying "Nullifying" the taunt, you should instead say it only allows one auto attack before going back to invisible. But to be honest, that's all Shen needs for his pokes. Just Vorpal Blade all day, and the shroud still won't let Akali win exchanges. Ki strike and go back in the bush.

Also, the post you said about Shen's damage being nerfed. I agree with the part where it said Shen's late game dps has been nerfed. It's true (to some extent).

But Early game damage? I don't see it. His Ki strike is stronger, his poke from Vorpal Blade is weaker, but he also does damage from Taunt. So it could be said his poke early game is weaker, but overall dps is not true.

 

You realize that if he needs to use Taunt to equalize damage, then he's worthless for the next 3 seconds, right?

 

How so? Taunt comes out to 80 energy, provided you hit the champion, shield is 40, vorpal is 60. Comes out to 180 energy, with 30 left over, and the 10 should regen by the time next vorpal comes out. That should be plenty for a fight.

 

it means you're completely tapped out of energy for a taunt.

If the enemy is good enough to ward, then they can easily turn it around and destroy you instead since if they can survive initial round and still have enough power to fight. You would have no real defensive or escape mechanism outside summoners for a solid 5s.

I don't know what people you're fighting down at bottom, but the supports I choose are the ones good enough to stop you from escaping and can keep the squishy safe enough from that combo by either healing off the damage enough to let them keep fighting or just out-right countering you blow for blow.

Your one poke vs a double Q from Akali + her passive damage boost.

Shen's damage at lv 3 is about

105 (Blade) + 100 (Passive assuming 852 HP) + 50 (taunt) + 60 (Auto)

You'll heal about about 27/3 off of Q. You'd have 39 Mresa t this point off of runes + Masteries.

Akali's is, assuming the Akali rune set + Masteries, She'll have around 26 AP and 10 extra AD at lvl 3:

160 (First Q + Proc) + 160 (Second Q + Proc) + 69 (Auto 1) + 69 (Auto 2) + 12 (Two applications of passive)

Akali will have 44 Mres by lvl 3, 54 in shroud. That's about 35% damage reduction.

Akali would heal 24 from a double Q before Mres.


You're also assuming Shen out-ranges Akali. It's the other way around. Akali beats Shen by about 125 range on Q.

 

I need more thumbs for all the truth being dispensed in this thread.

 

Here, I'll do it for you.

 

Akali at level 3:
From Masteries: 21/9/0
AD Bonus: 3
AP Bonus: 3 +3 +5%
Magic Pen: 10 %
Increase damage below 40%
MR: 4
Armor: 4
Health 18+30
Base Stats:
Health 425 (+85), so 680
Ad: 53(+3.2), so 62.6
Armor: 13.5 (+3.5), so 24
Mr: 30(+1.25), so 33.75
Runes:
Ad: 6.65
AP: 15.36
AD Pen: 2
AP Pen: 1.14
HP: 3.24
I’d imagine most go boots and 3 pots, but for the sake of statistics let’s go with cloth armor.
Cloth Armor: +18 Armor
Final Stats:
Ad: 72.25
AP: 22.428
Ad Pen: 2
Ap Pen: 1.14+10%
Health: 731.24
Armor: 46
MR: 37.75
Shen:
Masteries: 9/21/0
AD: 3
Magic Pen: 10%
Mr: 2
Armor: 6
Reduce Damage: 2+1.5%
Health: 18+30+3%
Base:
Health: 428(+85), so 683
Ad: 54.5 (+3.375), so 64.625
Armor 19(+4), so 31
Mr: 30(+0)
Runes:
Magic Pen: 8.55%
Health: 3.24 +78, so 81.24
Mr: 13.41
Item: Doran’s Shield. (You could say it’s unfair maybe with different items, but Shen can afford to go without pots easily, it’s just a difference in sustainability)
Health: 120
Def: 10
Final Stats:
Ad: 67.625
Ap: 0
Armor: 47
Mr: 45.41
Health: 960.2072
Magic Pen: 18.55%
Reduce Damage: 2+1.5%

Final Calculations:
Akali Damage: Mark of Assassin: 70, AA1: 72.75+70 twice ; Passive: 5.82x2, so 11.64
AD damage: 145.5
AP Damage: 291.64

Shen Damage: Vorpal Blade: 105, Taunt: 50, AA: 67.625, Ki Strike: 118
Ad Damage: 67.625
Magic Damage: 273
Damage actually taken after resistance:
For Akali:
Total MR: 37.75+10 (Shroud), 47.75 – 18.55%= 39.1735
Magic Damage Taken off: 100/139.1735 = 0.7185, so its 18.15% Magic Damage resisted
Magic Damage Taken: 196.1505
Total Armor: 46+10, so 56 – 0.
Physical Damage taken off: 100/156= 0.6410, so it’s 35.9% Physical Damage resisted
Ad Damage taken: 43.3476
Total damage taken: 239.4981
For Shen:
Total Mr: 45.41-11.14%= 40.351326
Magic Damage Taken off: 100/140.3513 = .71249 , so it’s 28.75% resisted
Magic Damage taken before the 2+1.5% damage reduction: 207.79
Total Armor: 47-2+50%Physical damage reduction
Ad Damage taken off: 100/145 =.68965, so it’s 31.03% resisted +50%
Ad Damage taken before 2+1.5% damage reduction: I am unsure whether to take the 50% off with taunt one by one with armor or stack them collectively. Stacking them collectively means damage taken is 27.60.
If I take them one by one, then 22.57. To be generous, I will use 27.6 for the calculations.
Total Damage taken: 235.39-2-1.5%= 228.904
Final Comparison:
Shen Damage Output: 239.4981
Akali: 228.904 Edit: Forgot to add Akali's Ap scaling on her q. So new damage output is 235.6.


Final Comments:

Please note that in these calculations, I did not include the increase damage by 6% when below 40% hp, increasing Akali’s damage by 13.73. So yes, if Shen’s health is below 40%, Akali’s damage output is slightly higher. But, that is not important as Shen has almost 230 more health than Akali.
Lastly, this is at level 3. Shen has his Ki strike from level one, and he simply shits on Akali then. His Taunt range is the same as Akali’s Q. While Taunted, Akali cannot shroud, and if Q is on Smart Cast, then Shen should be able to land full combo (Taunt, VB, Ki Strike).
I don’t want to take into calculations of spell vamp, but just using the numbers that you provided, 24 heal before MR. Shen heals 10+19, so his heal is superior to Akali without taking MR into consideration.
You could counter by saying Akali could use a null-magic mantle to start. But it doesn’t matter enough even if we were to make that swap. Shen has better sustain, more hp, etc. Also, all this calculations is done inside of the Shroud, which has a 20 second cool down. It would be simple to wait for the shroud to end in the bush before poking more.

Also, the builds are normal top lane builds I took from solomid.
Btw, fml. I just wasted an entire hour of my life.

Edit: Response to Redshell, since I missed his post. Irelia can't Zone out Shen in early levels, it's the other way around. After 6 is when lane gets even, which is what I said in original post. The comment about junglers is stupid, since there are junglers on both sides. If anything, Shen is BETTER at grabbing kills with jungler's help due to his taunt. Your bot lane comments are dumb. I don't think I ever mentioned Shen grabbing CS there.

 

You short-changed Akali a lot of MRes and also gave her a really imperfect rune page on top of that.

If you're going to be changing around builds, then Akali vs Shen would get Null-magic Mantle + pots, if she doesn't get boots + pots.

EDIT: Also, Westrice has really outdated info in his guides. Even his most recently updated one still isn't that good.

 

I'll rabble rouse the shit out of both of you.

 

Now I need more thumbs.

 

Akali stats:

HP: 757
AD: 72
AP: 21
Passive Damage: 7.2 per auto
Passive Heal: 8% per skill
Q damage: 78x2 (70 + 8 (21 AP * .4 rounded down))
Armor: 26
Mres with Mantle: 68
Mres with Mantle and Shroud: 78
Mres without Mantle: 44
Mres with Shroud but no Mantle: 54
MPen: 2 + 10%

Link to stats

So yeah, tragic. You shortchanged Akali at least 50 damage in the cycle while cropping her MRes anywhere from 7 to 37 points.

 

Nah, I used one of the Approved one updated 5 days ago. You could add more Mr to Akali's rune page, but that would lower her damage output too. And I did mention Null-Magic Mantle, doing the math again, it would lower Magic Damage output by about 30, but increase AD by about 10. You start with less health potions though. So it's probably even worse for Akali especially from level 1-3. And why would any self-respecting Akali ever go null-magic mantle first. Also, the stats you are just adding more Mr, and lower other stats though. I can't possibly calculate every build, so it was going by a general build. And do you know how much 50 damage is? Your Ad stats are the same as mine, ap is lower. Don't know how you are getting 50 extra damage

 

How the hell are you getting it where all of 4 AP is lowering overall damage by a significant amount?

And do you really think Akali's going to get hit by Vorpal when she has better range on Q at lvl 1?

It's like you're serious choosing bad builds and ignoring the passive that actually makes her able to stand up to most people in slug-fests.

Because you completely ignored the AP ratio on her Q during your damage calc, though I did a wrong calc on the passive. Corrected it's 18 damage boost from magic, 13 after MRes.

I also looked over your defense calcs again. Those are also wrong. Flat and % pen do not stack like that. Flat applies before percentage.

 

1. Percentage armor reduction
2. Flat armor reduction
3. Flat armor penetration
4. Percentage armor penetration

I was just using League of Legends Wiki for the calculation formula. I did subtract flat before percentage penetration.



Also, I did calculate her passive. Made sure it was over the amount needed to trigger the effects too. I don't know what you think I'm missing from it. And actually, I just realized that. You are right. I forgot to calculate ability power. But adding it into formula, it's .4 x22, so 4.8 extra magic damage, times two so 9.6. If we add Mr into account and damage reduction, about 6.7 extra damage. That's no where near 50.

Also, like I said, I just picked the most updated solomid Akali top build and used it. Same with Shen. Granted, if we change all of Akali's runes to flats rather than scaling, etc, then maybe the numbers will be more in Akali's favor. In any case, the good qualities about Shen is his ability to sustain while doing damage (Vorpal Blade minion, hit in beginning and end, and get quite a bit of hp back). The same simply cannot be said about Akali unless she plans on pushing the minion waves completely, which only invites junglers in. And like I said, Dash's range is the same as Akali's Q. So if the Akali is good, and manages to hit Shen with her Q and runs away quickly enough before Shen can Q back, this will change back at level 2 when Shen get's his taunt. Like I said earlier, Akali can't even shroud while taunted, losing any extra mr and armor the shroud provides.

The purpose of my calculations were to simply show that Akali does not outburst Shen early levels. And not being able to do more damage with minimal sustain is fatal for top lane. A smart Akali may simply shroud and try to farm, or hug turret and farm that way too. Also, now that I think about it, if the Akali manages to get two autoattacks in, Shen would be able to too. So that would be even more damage on Shen's part. I was doing my calculations on the attacks you thought would occur, but if the Shen uses A to move and attack, it would be a trade of autoattacks. (And if vorpal blade is still on, it would reset the heal too, doubling it, but it's probably better to assume the Akali knows to wait for the effects to end)

 

Except that Shen's damage on Ki Strike and his sustain on Vorpal Blade scales based on his max health. The same items support Shen would buy early game to soak up damage (Doran's Shield, Heart of Gold, Aegis of the Legion) are damage items on him.


Also, the PBE was updated with a new patch. Guess what they're testing?

Gee I guess they think Shen has too much sustain for the amount of damage he has. I can't imagine why.

 

This thread needs a pointless math-dick waving tag.

OT: Nautilus is fucking OP, and Twitch trying to gank Karthus is the funniest shit ever.

 

Hey Churchey, you haven't played in two months and you want to try a new mage champ?
Let's match you against mid kassadin with a twitch jungler.
Also your team is retarded.
Have at it!

That was my day yesterday.

 

Sounds alot like my day yesterday. .

 

Sounds like me today trying to play Ziggs, but end up feeding a Cass I keep messing up my W for my E)!