I placed her there because she duelled Snape to a draw (perhaps she was slightly on the back foot, but it was close) and because she was one of the three duelling Voldemort at the end of DH.

Bellatrix beat Kingsley, sure, but immediately after he had been duelling 2 Death Eaters simultaneously (and won). Hardly the best time to judge their relative strengths. Again, Kingsley was one of the three people duelling Voldemort at the end of DH. Also, Harry was able to land a spell on Bellatrix in the Atrium, and Molly was able to beat her.

The meaning of "defied" is uncertain. He certainly didn't put up much of a fight when he fought him Halloween 1981.

Lily and Snape being placed above James and Sirius is mostly because Lily and Snape are coming up with new magic/potions recipes while James and Sirius are simply very good at pre-existing magic. My general view on magical skill puts creativity as the marker of all of the greatest magical talents - whenever we're introduced to or told about great wizards we're always told about how they do things that haven't been done before.

Also because Snape is Voldemort's second in command.

Snape is also there for his skill in Occlumency and Legilimency, which allows him to wtfpwn all wizards without it (see HBP duel).

Edit: Lol I love how many noobs this thread brings out of the woodwork. Though at the same time it annoys me. People joining DLP just to view the WBA section without contributing to the site.

 

Forgive my weak memory, but is it confirmed that Pettigrew was a spy? As I remember, Pettigrew went to Voldemort with the secret right after he decided he was too afraid. Was there time for anyone to suspect him which would lead to the conclusion that Pettigrew was a decent spy?

 

Canon or this fic?

For canon: he was marked, and he couldn't have recieved the mark as a reward for betraying the Potters, because Voldemort attacked them and lost his body that night.

For this fic: we're simply taking the Potters at their word.

 

Not that I disagree about Snape, I think he's a very talented wizard. But I feel compelled to point out that wtfpowning Harry, an at best above average 6th year student hardly equates to wtfpowning all other wizards.

Anyway the last several posts prove my point. Given the information available in canon it is impossible to rate most Harry Potter wizards in any objective way. Thus, saying, 'blank could barely do it and he was exceptional making this a hard skill' or "blank could do it and he was a pathetic wizard" is not a convincing or even decent argument.

 

The Order is a secret organisation, yet, after the Marauders are in, half of their members are killed. How could members of a secret organisation be discovered, ambushed and killed unless there's a spy who informed the DE about them? So, either Pettigrew was the DE spy or there was another spy that canon never talk about, but the latter is unlikely.

 

It's not that he beat Harry, it's the way he beat Harry. In particular, that he looked in to Harry's mind, saw the spells he was about to cast, and blocked them before they were even fully formed.

The skill translates to any wizard whose mind is unprotected.

 

Harry is in a rage and not thinking clearly. Every time anyone besides Voldemort looked into Harry's mind they needed eye contact. It's fairly well established that eye contact is necessary for Legilimency. Any wizard not in a rage, with a modicum of common sense who is fighting a known Legilimens would simply not look them in the eye. Wtfpowning skill defeated both simply and easily.

 

Have fun duelling with your eyes closed.

(Only children think that if you can't see them, they can't see you. Simply not looking at your opponents eyes is not enough to prevent them looking in to your eyes. You'd have to either close your eyes or turn away from the other wizard such thay they couldn't see you. Neither case is great for duelling.)

(Sunglasses are a better idea.)

 

Actively avoiding someone's gaze does in fact make harder for them to look into your eyes. We both know this, arguing otherwise is facetious. In a true fight, not just a child charging at you, you need to be aware of multiple things, and can't focus solely on maintaining eye contact.

Your surroundings in case you fall, for instance. If the duel isn't in an isolated environment, you need to be aware of other people in the area as well as their movements. The other person could blow up the ground near you, clearly affecting your ability to maintain eye contact, etc. Add to all of these the fact that your opponent is positioning themselves in such a way that looking at their eyes is more difficult, and suddenly Legilimency doesn't allow you to wtfpown them. Does it give you an advantage? Of course. Is it insurmountable? No.

Legilimency is not the be all, end all of magical combat, even if your opponent lacks Occlumency.

 

Not really. No more so than your nose or mouth.

(It should also be noted that I only need to see my opponent's eyes once to initiate legilimency.

It should also be noted that you're assuming the opponent will be aware of the existence of legilimency, which most people aren't).

 

We'll agree to disagree. Between body positioning, angling of your head, partial closure of the eyelids, and various distracting tactics it is in fact very possible to increase the difficulty of eye contact.

(I was under the impression that eye contact must be maintained to continue legilimency. Am I incorrect?)

I grant you the final point. I did specify that the opponent was aware of the existence of legilimency. I'd dispute that it's as unknown as you make it out to be. Harry et al. were students. There's many things they aren't aware of. The Order all seemed to know what it is. Granted they are presumably more aware than the average adult, but they're the only real pool of adults whose knowledge base we know.

Also, I'd posit that most of the people who would be engaging in a duel, (Auror's, the Order, Death Eaters, etc.) would in fact be aware of the existence of legilimency.

Basically we're arguing degree though. It's clearly an advantage. I just don't think it's an instant wtfpown of any adult without Occlumency, which is what you originally stated.

 

@Taure: What potion/spell did Lily invent? Because I, sincerely, don't remember any.

As for the Legilimency, if eye contact is needed, anyone aware that it exists would be able to just avoid looking at his opponent's eyes. People not aware might figure out that their opponent is "reading" their mind if it's obvious (like in the Snape-Harry fight) or if they are intelligent enough.

But if what you need to enter your opponents' mind is just seeing their eyes, they are fucked. Unless they wear sunglasses, or fight blindfolded.

 

This. This issue is eye contact vs. eye "seeing."

And I'm gonna quote from the Lexicon for just a moment.

So Legilimency is possible without eye contact, but much harder. If it's harder it would suggest that it needs more concentration. In a battle against a competent opponent, one not in a rage (thus on guard), and based on Snape's need for eye contact with Harry when he's actually calm, Snape would have to maintain eye contact with his opponent. This as I've said, can be easily avoided. Thus the ability to use Legilimency it would seem, does not give Snape instant wtfpownage powers against all non-Occlumens in a fight.

 

Mustaine - I don't know of specific spells, but there was something with potions and mint flavour. Harry got that recipe from Half-Blood Prince' book and Slughorn said that Lily done something similar when she was a student. It sounded like it was Lily invention, rather than Severus.

 

And yet it's also pretty heavily implied that all of Lily's potions skill is a result of Snape's help, not her own talent.

 

Besides what Fiat Piscis said, I think that she shouldn't be on Snape's level even if she thought of adding the mint by herself. Snape actually invented new things and improved things that already existed, while Lily only did the latter.

Also: Animagus transformation at fifteen >>> Adding mint to a potion to avoid a side effect.

 

The power of love; the strongest of all dues ex machines ever, comes to mind.

 

It's implied by Slughorn that she was at least Snape's equal at Potions (Lily was Slughorn's favourite, not Snape, and he had no reason to favour her other than skill, given that she was a Muggleborn with no connections, and given that Snape was a member of his own house), and that they worked together on Potions e.g. the modifications in the HBP book.

Eye contact is only required on the part of the caster - not the victim.

The idea is that it's a variation on the "eyes are the window to the soul" saying. By looking in to your eyes I see through to your being.

To see something on the other side of a window it doesn't have to be looking at me for me to see it. I just have to be looking at it.

@The lexicon quote: I already said that by hiding your eyes you can avoid legilimency (normally. For some reason I think that without eye contact the spell has to be used with a wand, with eye contact you can do it without actually casting the spell. Not sure where that's coming from.). The problem is that staring at your shoelaces isn't the best way to win a duel.

Quote please.

If you're thinking of the Wolfsbane potion, he didn't invent that. I don't think we're told of any potion that Snape has created.

I don't think that was a spell so much as simply "deep magic" (i.e. plot device).

 

Snape may or may not have created potions but he created spells: sectumsempra, levicorpus, muffliato...(HPB), I believe that some of them even before the end of fifth year.

 

Of which only Sectumsempra is even mildly impressive. To me at least, Muffliato is a tweaked silencing spell or something along these lines. Levicorpus is in no way impressive or unique, and Sectumsepra is like a much stronger cutting curse.
It just hit me. When Fred(or was it George?) lost his ear they said that it was Dark Magic and thus couldn't be healed. But Snape healed Draco in a few seconds. Is it something I'm missing?