This is what I have a problem with. He will be skilled certainly more than any other 7th year, but in no way will be a true "master" of any particular brand of magic. Skilled, oh yes very skilled, but not one of top in the entire world. Not even the top 10 in any one subject.

Which like any other good student your apprentice to the most power and knowledge wizard you can be so that you can do all that. You don't think that the most powerful of magic is just floating out there do you. No, it's safe to assume it's guarded and the books are rare, treasured, and locked away. You want the books and the knowledge you go to who has them. Who has them and would allow you access, well obviously a master in that field has some access or knowledge to them.

Certain level of skill or a certain level of experience? If it skill than your wrong, I don't care how skilled you are if you have no battle experience or no experience in war and loss and are thrust into battle and see your best friend get blown apart or just experience real battle for the first time in general. There will be a huge difference between you and someone who has experienced that type of stuff before.

 

Well that's really up to The Santi, not you.

 

That's true, but he has yet to show how powerful Harry will be at 17 one way or the other and yet Taure speaks and believes that barring Dumbledore, Gridelwald, and Voldemort Harry will be at 17 unstoppable. I disagree and until Santi writes 17 year old Harry and proves one of us wrong I will continue to hold that disagreement.

 

@cenares: can he do absolutely everything in the field perfectly? No. He's not a Master in that sense. Can he do anything that isn't a magical dick waving contest? Yes. Can he accomplish any objective put in front of him? Yes.

Those magic books you talk about? Handed down through the family.

A magical battle and muggle one are two completely different things. Multiple people have posted on this multiple times more eloquently then I ever could. Suffice to say what you're describing is a muggle battle, which really has minimal affect on how a wizard battle plays out.

 

The psychological stresses are pretty much the same. In fact it would be even more stressful and I would suspect that a green horn in a magical battle would be even more of a liability no matter how powerful or skillful he is. Until you've actually killed people and are in the mind set to kill again with no hesitation and have watched some of your friends die and can accept that more of them will than you won't be a match to a seasoned veteran. Dumbledore, Grindelwald, and mad eye are on that level and Voldemort was psychopathic and amoral enough to really need to go through that. As he can kill without mercy or hesitation and has no friends to lose.

Do you really think that powerful obscure magic is just accessible? That old families are just going to freely give out such secrets and that masters of any particular discipline are just going to give you all the knowledge you want without compensation of some kind. Apprentice work for the master at their chosen field, they don't receive anything for free. A guy isn't going to just hand you over the knowledge you seek and allow you to compete in that job market just cause you ask really nicely. He's going to want something for it. After all if they're is one lesson to be learned it's that knowledge is power. Do you think people are going to readily hand out power. Do you think even the ministry wants that in terms of dangerous dark arts. Do you think old families who have powerful obscure and dangerous magics are just going to empower you for no reason? To literally chance fate by granting you such power? I think not. If your Voldemort you can take what you want and I suppose your followers would allow you access to all the they know and all the books that they have, but for most people your not going to get anywhere unless you have connections, a family library, or take up an apprenticeship to a master.

 

It almost seemed like you deliberately misinterpreted this. The difference in skill between a newborn and a ten year old is massive. The difference between a ten year old and a twenty year old is also huge. The difference between a twenty year old and a thirty year old is much smaller. So on and so forth till you get Dumbledore at 150 and Riddle at 60. Skill plateaus after a certain point, which leaves Dumbledore and Riddle on even footing. Trying to equate that with children fighting in wars is downright retarded.

 

Holy wall of text Batman. Learn to format.

Lets just start by saying nothing in the above is backed up in any way by canon or HPatBWL fanon. This is literally you coming up with whatever you feel would best support your points.

Starting with Stunners there are literally countless ways to end a duel without resorting to killing your opponent. Do you honestly see it in Dumbledore's character to cast the Killing Curse mid battle? Didn't think so.

As seen in the Battle of Hogwarts (Molly in particlar springs to mind) a 'green horn' is not a liability. More of the experienced adults on site died then students (relatively) even if it was only the Gryfindors who stood and fought.

Santi's Harry has not seen his friends die. He has not killed in battle and is not prepared to do so again. Yet, somehow, I can't see him losing a duel now (and especially in 3 years) to any Death Eater except maybe Bella and even that's questionable.

This will be my last post dealing with you in this thread as you are completely incapable of reading what someone has posted and understanding what they mean.

You made this point yourself, outside of the last line you tacked on to make it relevant to your point. Powerful spells and obscure magic is the domain of the family. (See Calypso and her Occlumency book) Every 'master' in a field DOES NOT have access to such books. A 'master' is one who is making progress in the field (as seen in the Wizarding equivalent of scientific journals). You've arbitrarily decided that 'Mastery' in a field of magic is like a
Renaissance painter (long apprenticeship until you're acknowledged) when it is demonstratibly more in the line of spell mastery (achievable in 7 years) followed by theoretical mastery (achievable in 7 years + some independent research) then followed, presumably, by small contributions to the magic journals.



Hopefully by the end of this post you'll be convinced. Or at least respond to my points and not whatever you've twisted them into.

 

I agree with your points. It was well thought out Cenares.

 

I really enjoy watch Taure debate* more than I should.

Has anyone else noted cenares avatar?

*By debate, I of course mean curb-stomp

 

His points were fine, his avatar doesn't change that.

And as far as trolling goes...

 

Dueling isn't battle and there is a reason to use the killing curse in battle. Your enemies can't revive their fallen and keep fighting being a very good one. Are you actually equating Harry to a Dumbledore level in his first battle? Dumbledore can do what the fuck he wants in battle he's Dumbledore. Being a prodigy of great power that has lived to over a hundred he can take that kind of liability and make it look easy.

Given that she is a member of the order and has been since the first war I would say she has mostly like been in battle before. Are you saying that those Gryfindors reacted as well as experienced fighter such as Mad Eye, Shacklebolt, or Tonks for that matter? They did handle the situation well, but not that well.

I wouldn't assume that it would be one on one. Using your logic you don't fight Dumbledore(Harry) unless your on his level or you in a large group. So it wouldn't be one on one.

Your not getting what I'm saying about seeing a friend die are you? If Krum gets cut in half, or his brother gets half his head blown off, or Calypso gets smashed into a puddle of goo. Harry's going to go ballistic, which will be impressive, but it's also reckless and would get him killed pretty quickly. Dumbledore, Moody, Grindelwald, or anyone with real experience wouldn't be as badly effected. Hell Dumbledore would control himself and not break out into a rage. It comes down to experience with that kind of loss.

Just like a Renaissance painter or stone mason. That is my view. Pretty much. To be honest it's hard to argue either way because we have no confirmation of education after Hogwarts at all. I will say that I don't think it has to be particular long, because you aren't starting from scratch, but I do think it ends with you being acknowledged. Things like a potion mastery I think you mostly likely need to be certified with the ministry to sell, experiment with potion, and get licence for animal and human testing.

To be specific I think it work something like the system in "The Apprentice", by Deborah Peters. It's fanon, but it's good fanon that makes sense.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6306296/9/The_Apprentice

Did you not read what he wrote?

This can be interpreted many ways.
After certain level of skill any real differences due to experience disappear. This one being false and this the one I responded to. Skills do not equate to experience. Harry in battle is not going to to react and handle the stress of battle as well as Dumbledore or Voldemort.

I agree that after a certain level of experience that the difference will disappear. I also agree that after you can gain a certain level proficiency in casting that some of the differences disappear. This I didn't respond to.

 

Cenares used too much bad analogy and faulty reasoning to be convincing. His whole point can be summarised as: "one version of fanon I like is da mastah".

And I totally support strictly relying on canon in situations like this. Truth is JKR created a world with no higher education and no viable education opportunities after Hogwarts, apart from taking a job (see Percy Weasley, Charlie Weasley, Bill Weasley). Also look at Snape he graduated, became a Death Eater and spent many years near Dumbledore, and yet as we find out in DH his signature spell is Sectumsempra. A spell HE invented before fifth year ended, and probably earlier! (see Harry's pensieve experience in OotP). Harry Potter in Harry Potter and the Boy who Lived is insanely competent in magic and could wipe the floor with canon Harry aka Nathan who in turn fought and won against Death Eaters.

 

Here I thought I had multiple points. I realized before hand that a soon as I mentioned a fanon that someone would say something to this effect. The truth is that JK created a wonderful world. A world that wasn't really thought out that far. We have no canon information on education after Hogwarts, the job market, and well...pretty much how the wizarding world works in general. She did seem to base a lot of it around us though. So it's not all that different from us. Given that, I base that there has to be a system of education of some sort and job preparedness system after Hogwarts. I listed one that someone took a great time to think out as possible way it could be done.

We have no canon that supports it either way.

We don't know that. Or at least we don't know that she created a word without higher education. True we didn't see any educational opportunities outside of Hogwarts, but we really didn't see or hear anything about the world outside Hogwarts either. We have no canon in this regard.

I'm honestly not seeing your point here. We know that Snape became a death eater, we don't know anything else about his life during that time really. For all you know he could have been apprenticed under a potion master who was a death eater or who was persuaded by the death eater to take him as an apprentice. Being that he's a half blood the power of the death eaters would give him the connection to allow him to succeed in this world. We have no canon in this. It's all pure speculation.

Also creating a spell no matter how useful doesn't really qualify you as a charms master. In fact I've never heard him referred to as such anyways.

I think that we can safely assume that Harry(Nathan) won against death eater because of plot armor and not really his competence in magic. You obviously disagree with that though.

 

So... your argument is that since we have no proof, and no viable explanation why talented people went looking for jobs instead of better educational opportunities other than the lack of said opportunities, we can summarily make up whatever we want and call it in agreement with JKR's canon? Good for you, how's the view from Wonderland?

What Charms mastery? What MASTERY? MASTERY? What the hell is that? I have no idea what you are talking about. Yes, that was sarcasm.

The best career choice a very talented wizard, in popular view according to Dumbledore, can make is to go for a career in the ministry (see Tom Riddle's life in HBP, can't remember the particular chapter). My whole argument was to draw a parallel between Santi's Harry and Snape, and to illustrate how a wizard can apparently peak early.

 

Bill Weasely after Hogwarts ended up being a Grintgotts curse breaker. Most likely receiving an education by Grintgotts current curse breaking staff and funded by Grintgotts. Maybe even apprenticing under one of the staff. Doing grunt work until he was a competent curse breaker. Same thing with Charlie. Did either of those guys strike you as the type that would want to take up a career as a potions master or charms master? They didn't strike me as such. They in fact did seek an education in there chosen work fields.

Liliy in this story is referred to as a charms mistress(multiple times). Snape and several other are referred to as potion masters. Taure opinion on the subject is that Hogwarts Professors are called this in a English boarding school manner, meaning teacher or some such thing. My opinion it is actually some type of earned title. As Lily doesn't teach and under yours and Taure there is no educational system after Hogwarts it wouldn't make sense to refer to her as such. Read it in context and you'll notice it's certainly spoke as an earned title.

And my point was that while Harry is skilled and is going to continue to become even more so, I don't believe that by 17 he will be one of the type 4 wizards in all the world. Especially not in any given subject.

 

Since when has this mattered to you?

 

Since I'm apparently being slammed about canon when there is no canon on the subject. Since someone speculates the same as me and dismisses my speculation because it's not in canon, but claims that their own reasonings are. When clearer they are not. It's made worse because their own speculation seemingly aren't that well thought out and in some cases just don't make sense for this world.

 

From what we know in canon, Voldemort was roughly 30 when he came to Hogwarts for a job. He already had his core death eaters ready by the time he was 30, meaning he was ready to wage a war against the ministry and Dumbledore. The war first began officially in the mid 60's and if we consider that Riddle graduated in 1943, it was roughly after 20 years after his graduation.

What I mean to say is that Riddle was already a match for Dumbledore by the time he was in his 30's or his early forty's.
And that is not taking the time he spent working at Borgin and Burkes where he didn't receive any sort of formal training.

Meaning Riddle at 35 was an even match for Dumbledore and let us not forget that Dumbledore had the Elder wand by then.

Dumbledore agrees Harry has more control of his magic than himself.

Harry starts learning mind arts at 12 and masters basic occulemency then itself. He masters silent casting at 13 and maintains an Aqua Eructo at 14. I really doubt Tom could have managed these feats at such a tender age since we know that Tom started learning mind arts roughly at the beginning of his 6 year.

Harry, when compared to Riddle is better than him in every aspect at 14.

If we assume Tom Riddle was a match for Dumbledore in his 30's, it is fair enough that Harry would become an exceptional wizard by the time he is 25, a threat to both Dumbledore and Voldemort, depending on the side he chooses to fight.

I don't really think Harry will join Voldemort. Then again, I am not Santi.

As for the worth of the tasks, even if they reduced the risk of Death by decreasing the dangerous nature of the tasks, the tasks are still a threat to the champion's lives.

WAiting for the next update, though I don't think it will come out before the vacation.

 

Ummm... so you're saying 'I know what you are, what am I?'


Aside from that - while this back & forth is amusing, it has become the main reason that I want Santi to update (as opposed to progressing the story), so that this tired speculation can be closer to ending.