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WIP Harry Potter and the Den of Snakes by sunmoonandstars - T

Discussion in 'The Alternates' started by Sesc, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. Zombie

    Zombie Black Philip Moderator DLP Supporter

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    Yeah, rather disappointed it got abandoned.
     
  2. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Excellent news then.

    https://archiveofourown.org/works/24721513/chapters/59756794

     
  3. point09micron

    point09micron Groundskeeper

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    Wow good find. Checking it out now.
     
  4. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    I continue to remain in love with the series. Really exploring the Voldemort conflict from the other side and casting it as a struggle over legitimate political and social issues remains something that is far too rarely done. It also almost feels as if the "the other side is functionally retarded"-aspect is improving, but then again, maybe that is because we had no Order/Weasley POV, and Thorne (and Andromeda) are by far the most credible and interesting players on that side. Now if anyone could present one legitimate argument for the Ban on Bloodmagic from 1803, we would be so much closer to perfection -- we get frustratingly close when the Daily Prophet writes

    Blood magic of all kinds has been illegal in the United Magical Kingdom since the comprehensive 1803 ban on dangerous magics, spearheaded by Artemisia Lufkin, first female Minister of Magic. Lufkin, backed by the now-defunct Progressive Magic Party (PMP), pushed the comprehensive bill through the Wizengamot, citing the potential for blood magics and other branches of Dark Arts to be used for evil was too great. The party’s central platform involved acknowledgement of Muggle technological advancements, and a key plank of Lufkin’s preelection talking points was banning blood magic.

    but as always just not quite. Why is the potential too great? And if that's just a political front, and it's not supposed to make sense, then what was actually gained? Argh.

    But the depiction of the traditionalist side reaches new heights. The breakout really drives home the situation, and the author is skilled enough to make the scenes as powerful as they can be. The Death Eaters aren't faceless evil, they are mothers, brothers, uncles, family. Relations of people we came to like, imprisoned because their side lost, and their ideals differed from the victors'.

    All in all, Vipers/Book 5 is the best book so far, and I like it for all the reasons I disliked OotP. Umbridge/Ministry vs. Dumbledore vs. Voldemort just makes for a great plot and Harry is useful instead of yelling in ALL CAPS.

    The author also has the ability to be incredibly succinct. My favourite scene from the new chapters is a single line:

    Ginny, Pansy, Bulstrode, and Natalie had passed out in a pile on Pansy’s bed, fashion magazines and Dark Arts books from Pansy’s trunk strewn around them.

    This is a great scene. There's the comical aspect, but at the same time, it sketches up an entire picture in just a handful of words, of what Slytherin and the characters are about. This is actual good writing.


    All in all, the quality is the same as before, so I assume the author is, too. I only wonder whether they accidentally skipped a chapter during upload, because we left Secrets of Vipers during the winter hols in Grimmauld Place, and the next/new chapter starts already back at Hogwarts, referencing events we didn't see.
     
  5. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter

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    I need to catch up on this story. I admit I never got into it to the extent I got into Prince of Slytherin. They’re different stories with a few similarities and I just gravitated to the other one.

    Gotta figure out where I left off.
     
  6. point09micron

    point09micron Groundskeeper

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    @Sesc
    I liked that part too, but there's a problem with it: Pansy's bed shouldn't be in Harry's dorm room. Reading that paragraph carefully, I think the author meant to say the girls were passed out on Crabbe's bed.
     
  7. haphnepls

    haphnepls Third Year

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    A find of the year. I had a good time rereading it.

    Though I have a feeling like the author skipped something. There's a chapter with Nott's father, and then the next one talks about badass Harry back in Hogwarts and people getting drunk. It's strange.
     
  8. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Yeah, but that kinda makes me more convinced it actually is the original author, and he just messed up his internal chapter numbering. Seems like a weird mistake to make otherwise.

    There are a few continuity errors as well, though. Ch1 of the restart has some Vipers and Celesta specifically not knowing he's a Heir of Slytherin, when he told them all when they first entered the chamber. There's a line of Graham getting all things new in Ch2, when Kreacher packed up his entire room before he moved into Grimmauld.

    And there's no follow up for the weird runes and death of Arthur (Luna and Xeno were looking into that), but then again, maybe that was in whatever was skipped.
     
  9. Crash

    Crash Third Year

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    Confused - is the rest of book 5 already done and being posted at intervals, or still being written? I only see 3/11 chapters posted.
     
  10. haphnepls

    haphnepls Third Year

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    The author said this is the end of book 5, but it doesn't seem like it to me. All previous books were nicely wrapped when they were finished, but this one looks like it is cut a few chapters short, dunno.
     
  11. PWIZDUO

    PWIZDUO Third Year

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    I still can't get over that scene w/ Nott senior. What kind of world are we in where there is a permanent non reversible impotence hex that 15 year olds can cast on the spot and get away with. With how much everyone cares about blood and family in this story, how has everyone not been magically castrated by their rival families ?

    I
     
  12. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    UPDATE TIME

    Also, there indeed was a chapter missing in the restart, and that has been inserted at the start, so make sure to read that as well.

    I maintain that Harry and Daphne here are the best match, by the way:

    Edit:
    I forgot the details, does Arthur sneaking into the DoM on Dumbledore's orders and getting killed in the process make sense?
     
  13. kinetique

    kinetique Headmaster

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    Why are almost all of the Slytherin Harry stories filled to the brim with relatively interesting plots, but also filled to the brim with bad cliches? Fundamentally I know that reading about Harry's superlative skill with a wand stemming from genius is really not that different from Harry just having a huge magical core (in that they're both thing's he's born with), but there's a certain elegance stemming from the former.
     
  14. haphnepls

    haphnepls Third Year

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    It's like the difference between an enormous dick, and a normal one with superlative skill. The former is good for show-off, but will ultimately just hurt people while the latter has the potential to bring you an unimaginable pleasure.

    Bad cliches doesn't equal bad story, and this story is a perfect example of it.
     
  15. LordVoldemoore

    LordVoldemoore Squib

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    This fic has cost me an embarassing amount of sleep/productivity. I've loved it enough to give it a 5/5 despite the occasional continuity error or facepalmy Dumbledore/James moment.


    tl;dr

    Re: This fic vs Prince. This is engaging because amazingly character-driven. Prince is engaging because amazingly plot-driven. Don't compare when reading or be disappointed.

    Re: Pairings. No Harry/Daphne pls. Too similar, no growth. Harry/Pansy yes, potential for growth.


    Long version

    I know some people earlier in the thread had a Sarcasm & Slytherin vs Prince of Slytherin debate, but the reading experience of both fics is very different. I don't think you should go into EITHER one expecting the other or you'll be disappointed. S&S is very character-driven. The plot isn't amazingly different from canon at all, though from 4th year on, it starts changing a little/changing enough for me. It's the characters that drive this to be such an engaging fic. They pull you in, you grow attached, you care about what happens to them, and they're all very fleshed-out/unique despite a relatively high number of main characters.

    With Prince, I actually haven't read past the first quarter/half(?) of third year - but this is still a million words in I think, mind you, lol. I only stopped because I wanted to build up a buffer of chapters to read, and then for some reason never felt compelled to return. (Although S&S has made me want to read more Slytherin!Harry, so I may return to Prince.)

    From what I have read, Prince is very PLOT-driven. Sesc is right in that a lot of those moments from first year are not technically very Slytherin (yelling in the library, calling Bingo in the common room, that conversation about selfishness with Snape). But you could argue not all Slytherins are the same, or not all demonstrations of power need to be 100% cunning 100% of the time, or 11 year old Harry can slip up and yell despite being in Slytherin. PoS is very sprawling, very ambitious in its attempt to shove canon on its head, and is so engaging because of how plot-driven it is. First year was good, but was absolutely blown out of the park when I started reading second year. There were mysteries I was trying to solve, trying to read faster at the expense of all else to finally uncover. There were backstories that showed the paths certain characters had taken to get where they were. I can't actually remember getting super attached to Harry as a character, but it didn't need me to.

    I'd definitely go into Prince not expecting it to be anything like S&S and vice versa. (And read second year of Prince, dang it.)


    I didn't mean for this to devolve into such a lengthy comparison comment, haha. Back to S&S/Vipers, and specifically the Harry/Daphne comments: no way!

    I'm glad the author made herself clear when she said she was going to make the romance realistic for teenagers and give them many pairings. Harry and Daphne were way too similar for each other, to the point of there being zero spark. I think the same is happening between Theo and Hermione. Imagine being in a relationship with yourself? It doesn't work, no matter how many times I have foolishly irl said I'd love to date someone just like me.

    I wish less authors used the ice queen fanon trope for Daphne. In this case, Harry really is somehow icier than her. If they were to realistically get together long-term, both heirs wanting to (likely) carry on their own family name, both (once the honeymoon years wore off) wanting to be the powerful/dominant one in the relationship, neither having a partner who could help soften the other and help them grow even a tiny bit emotionally, they would end up being the most stony, cold, unhappy pair to ever exist. (In my opinion.) Better as friends. If you look at most pop culture relationships, the cold one needs someone to soften them. This is true for most of the relationships I've been familiar with in real life too. Two dominant personalities will rarely work unless their outlets for dominance are very different (having different businesses, different projects where they don't conflict, one caring more to get their way with what the house looks like vs the other caring more that the family eats vegetarian or whatever).

    In S&S, Harry/Pansy makes the most sense. She's slightly softer, but not soft enough to be truly bothered by Harry struggling with emotional stuff. I think he'd actually achieve a little development over the years on an emotional level with her. A weird/improbable thing I'd like, even just casually: Neville/Daphne. We don't see a lot of them, but they definitely have a lot to offer the other in the way of development. Probably too opposite, unlike Harry/Pansy.


    This got way longer than intended wow. I'll put a tl;dr up there, haha.
     
  16. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Ah, but it all depends on what you want out of a relationship, doesn't it?

    Marrying your best friend, for instance, does work; you don't get an epic romance out of it, but spend your life with a person you can stand having around you and who you know will be there for you, and vice versa. Or you're looking for something transactional, a certain set of skills, a partner in business; this requires the ability to give space and distance, and a very rational approach to life, as emotions would get too heated, when you aren't compatible.

    In this case, you say you're looking for room to grow, but my take is that Harry and Daphne both are principally incapable of just that growth. They are both broken. Daphne, certainly, is still looking for more and holding out hope, but I don't see that working out: Anyone but Harry will become frustrated when she is unable to return affections in the way they are given, and she will become frustrated by what would seem to her an absurd focus by the other on this particular aspect. There is a reason Harry and Daphne are best friends: because they are similar where it matters. They get the other.

    Daphne has to make this experience, however, I think.

    I agree with this:
    But when that is the only thing you have, it's still better than nothing.

    The dominant aspect isn't an issue, it all depends on the characters. Not everyone is looking for stability in that sense; if you're both so inclined, the constant challenge can be most fun thing of that sort of setup and, in fact, the spark that keeps the relationship going. My perspective on both of them is that they are by any means rational enough to channel that energy outwards and into constructive things, which means they'd be a power couple for the ages. The world wouldn't even stand a chance.

    As for Pansy, I agree she would work. As I said, she's transactional enough that she'd be very happy with the perks (status, power), and take the bad parts without being bothered by it. It's just that for me it'd be such a waste when I could have Harry and Daphne ruling wizarding Britain in ten or twenty years :D

    In any case, welcome, and a great review, thanks for your thoughts on that matter!
     
  17. Sowaka

    Sowaka First Year

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    Okay, this is a very enjoyable fic. I'm at the end of the second year and I'm glad I finally decided to read it after seeing the comments here.

    The author does have a talent for character interactions, no doubt. Sometimes in Slytherin Harry fics, Harry and others end up damn insufferable, but luckily that's not the case here.

    I thought it's gonna be Hermione. Her outburst at Harry and other Slytherins did seem a little extreme, though perhaps only because we as readers are likely to be on his side, and being manipulated by the diary could explain it. In the dueling club chapter she surprised Harry by a spell she learned from a book. Could've been the diary, I thought.

    But then she got petrified, so I though Luna. Kinda suspicious how she never got mentioned after a certain point. But I guess the author just forgot about her.

    And in the end it was Megan Jorkins, an OC, I believe, whom I forgot about. Though to be fair there was a line in the beginning of the year about her not being together with her classmates, which the diary later used to manipulate her.
     
  18. Kara Black

    Kara Black Muggle

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    I binged this in like a week and I absolutely adored it. I totally agree with the thing about how the politicking is really good and I love how Harry isn't going 'Light bad, so I'm going to join up with the dark lord' and instead being like, very conflicted, because on one hand
    You have the BWL who I at least am confused about but then you have the Graveyard scene where Tom is much more tempered and controlling of his minions. I also really enjoyed Barty in this fic, as a guy who was definitely not alright, but still an amazing teacher because cannon!barty/moody was also one of the better teachers.

    Either way the only issue I would have is with Andromeda Tonks because she is like a Light-side Black, and that just has made no sense to me because it's said that she's a Slytherin but like forgets Rule 1 (house unity) on a regular basis? Whatever that was about she seemed like the Order of the Phoenixes' Umbridge, a Snake who forgets their house.

    Overall, I would give it a 5/5, though because it's certainty one of the best TBWL fics that I have read.
     
  19. Pathological Liar

    Pathological Liar Second Year

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    This updated
     
  20. MightlessPhilosopher

    MightlessPhilosopher First Year

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    The political side of this fiction is very elaborate. It reminds me of the politics of South America, like a failed military coup.
    On the other hand, I find it a bit ridiculous that Dumbledore
    would make the Longbottom insane just because they were potential political opponents and to make the Conservative side look bad
    . Also, the whole thing about Sirius... There is no way a real human being would do what James did. James's behaviour is simply caricatural.

    In the 2nd year, Daphne is totally forgotten and she reappears in 3rd year. The author seemed to have forgotten she existed, no letters, no nothing.
    Why the hell did Harry date her?
     
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