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Feel like you needed the Sophie’s Choice aspect of it too. The agony of Helaena having to choose between Maelor and Jaeharys would’ve added more oomph to that part. It weirdly felt very flat- like your son just got murdered and it was a very… subdued reaction. Glad they didnt include the rape threats though

 

I really enjoyed the episode, I loved Daemon getting his

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murder hood

on.

Aegon's actor is the star of the second season so far imo, I can't wait to see how his character reacts and changes going forward.

 

Something I really love is how the show presents the now canonical truth of the events vs the interpretation in Fire & Blood.

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Luke’s and Jaehaery’s death both being accidents (or as much paying someone to murder someone else before they take the ‘easy’ option is an accident) really sells the theme that it was just a series of mistakes begetting mistakes that shattered the realm. Visery’s last words being misinterpreted too adds to the tragedy.

 

I know that some people are upset with the way the show interprets the book, but I think it works very well. There's less ambiguity here, but more of a story.

 

@Drachna

What about Aegon's actor particularly impressed you? I'm genuinely curious, because in that same episode Emma D'Arcy had barely any screentime and I think one line of dialogue and still killed it imo.

 

I just found it all a bit tedious. But then I also found the latter half of season 1 a bit dull. I had much more investment in the characters before the time skip. They were more sympathetic then. Post-time skip, I feel like there's no characters left to root for.

 

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It looks like they're trying to make the Greens more likeable this season, as they were pretty unambiguously the 'bad guys' in the last one, so they're giving their actors room to add more depth to their performances I think. Aegon's actor, Tom Glynn-Carney has been given more space to show these new dimensions to his character this season than anyone else so far, so it might just be recency bias on my part, as most of the other characters have more or less remained the same as they were in the season one finale.

On paper Aegon is a bit of a monster, and shouldn't be all that relatable, but the actor makes him likeable and funny, and a somewhat tragic, if pathetic figure. He's also written to be refreshingly honest, and in a position to cut through the bullshit and talk about things as he sees them. I think that he's smart enough to recognise his own weaknesses. If I'm right, his character is going to change drastically in the next few episodes as he reacts to the death of his son, and I think he's going to start taking the centre stage a lot more. I think that Aegon's actor is basing his performance a bit on what a young Viserys might have looked like, had he not been raised by more competent guardians.

He obviously doesn't want to be king, but he's giving it his best shot. He's not a particularly good father to his children, but he's trying to prepare his heir for the throne in his own way. He's immature, but earnest. Unlike most of the other characters at court he's honest about his intentions, and they also gave him some pretty good lines. I'm just really enjoying his performance so far.

 

I'm sticking around for Smith and D'Arcy being phenomenal acting talents, but the sloggy #drama of The Dance itself is barely holding my attention.

And the character work for everyone that isn't Daemon/Rhaenyra/Alicent has been extremely forgettable since mid S1.

Not sure I'm gonna get through 4-5 seasons of this level of drag.

 

Exact opposite for me; or rather I guess I dislike the way they are interpreting those events. I liked Luke's death, but that was the only major deviation from the books I've enjoyed thus far.

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I felt Blood and Cheese was much more impactful the way it was in the books. During the scene, I was distracted because they literally mentioned "just look for which baby has a penis" and for some godforsaken reason the other guy refused and demanded she tell them. I found Erryk's (Arryk's?) suicide at the end of the fight a little stupid, even though I really liked the scene leading up to it. There were multiple parts where the characters in story seemed to acknowledge real life criticism (Daemon and Rhaenys) and then just move on without really addressing it, which is fine in tiny amounts as character disagreements but makes me fear for the season 7-8 GOT "I've acknowledged the writing flaws, so we can now move on to make more". I generally like the way Aemond gives off school shooter vibes, and even though the brothel scene made me feel uncomfortable I like the way the show went with his character, which I think is an improvement on the books for me.

 

I've seen a wide spectrum of complaints from viewers about the child murder scene. I have not read the books, but I think I have a decent impression of the book version, which seems to be on the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to violence and sadism. I wonder how much of this is genuine dissatisfaction with book-to-adaptation changes and how much stems from the general audience desensitization to onscreen violence. It's been a decade since the Red Wedding, stabbing a pregnant woman in the baby belly isn't hardcore anymore. Sawing off a toddler's head doesn't fill the gore meter.

Honestly, to me the book version seems like what you'd see in edgelord indy Harry fanfics from the 2000s about how badly Dursleys abused Harry. It's not enough that he lived in a storage cupboard and was verbally reprimanded for existing, no, that's not hardcore enough, he must also be sexually abused and beaten bloody on the regular.

Stop and think about what you watched. Two brutes came in out of nowhere and made Helaena point out her son, then they unceremoniously decapitated the kid while she collected her daughter and went to seek help. Is this really not horrifying enough for you? At which point does a scene like this just turn into something that belongs in a medieval Saw spin-off? We all know what Saw movies are: gratuitous violence for the sake of gratuitous violence. That's not what this show is.

I think the angle of telling the "true" version of events that became exaggerated in a book is smart storytelling and the show spins it into a sequence of events that serves to escalate the stakes and heighten the drama.

Luke's death was a tragic accident stemming from Aemond's unresolved anger. Deamon the Impulsive's cunning plan for retaliation goes sideways and the result is another unintended tragedy. Otto, the smart bastard that he is, spins it into political influence in a wonderful display of manipulation. Then Aegon, in his grief, finds a way to give the smallfolk of King's Landing a reason to hate him anyway. The Blacks see the boy's death for what it is: a huge blow to their legitimacy.

Political capital is built up and spent, actions provoke reactions that make sense, dominos fall. This is what I find satisfying about this show. I just don't see how HOTD would benefit from giving more screentime to even more brutally traumatizing Helaena.

 

I don't think thats a fair summation of the criticism. It isn't *just* that it was less violent and sadistic, though that is a small part of it. It's that during that scene I was wondering why Heleana was there at all, why Blood and Cheese acted the way they did, and what difference this change made to the story. It distracted me from what was meant to be a very important and emotional scene.

In the book, traumatizing Helaena is the entire point. That's why she's there, that's why they leave her alive, that's the entire point of the scene. Why is Helaena in the show scene? Because she happened to be there, and because one guy was fine murdering a baby but looking for a penis was a step too far for him. Why was she left alive? Because the baby murderers are honorable and keep their word.

I generally dislike the direction of making Rhaenyra and Alicent more sympathetic and not responsible for these actions because I enjoyed the Amoral Asshole vs Amoral Asshole dynamic of the book, but whatever that's a story direction the show decided to take and it's better they stick to it rather than wildly swerving now.

Edit: I agree that the politics of Aegon and Otto and Alicent and their clashing dynamics are improvements to the books.

 

I'll stop you right there.

This is a live action show. It's an adaptation. Adaptations can, and should, make changes, because it's simply not possible to translate the written word into the visual medium of a show 1 to 1. I honestly don't give two shits if the point of the scene in the book is traumatizing Helaena. The point of the scene in the show is spelled out in the episode title: a son for a son.

 

How does that in anyway shape or form explain away the inconsistent actions of Blood and Cheese? Like in-universe, show only, why did they need Helaena, what was the point of leaving her alive.

 

This exactly. A child's head being sawn off is absolutely horrifying, I think the way they did it here makes a bit more sense than the book too, when you consider how the secret passages are used in asoiaf. They were very lucky to run into no guards, but I suppose some of them had their hands full. They also had to move quickly, and seemed like the type of murderers who would kill a child, but not enjoy killing a child, so it making them less sadistic also works better.