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Feel like you needed the Sophie’s Choice aspect of it too. The agony of Helaena having to choose between Maelor and Jaeharys would’ve added more oomph to that part. It weirdly felt very flat- like your son just got murdered and it was a very… subdued reaction. Glad they didnt include the rape threats though

 

I really enjoyed the episode, I loved Daemon getting his

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murder hood

on.

Aegon's actor is the star of the second season so far imo, I can't wait to see how his character reacts and changes going forward.

 

Something I really love is how the show presents the now canonical truth of the events vs the interpretation in Fire & Blood.

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Luke’s and Jaehaery’s death both being accidents (or as much paying someone to murder someone else before they take the ‘easy’ option is an accident) really sells the theme that it was just a series of mistakes begetting mistakes that shattered the realm. Visery’s last words being misinterpreted too adds to the tragedy.

 

I know that some people are upset with the way the show interprets the book, but I think it works very well. There's less ambiguity here, but more of a story.

 

@Drachna

What about Aegon's actor particularly impressed you? I'm genuinely curious, because in that same episode Emma D'Arcy had barely any screentime and I think one line of dialogue and still killed it imo.

 

I just found it all a bit tedious. But then I also found the latter half of season 1 a bit dull. I had much more investment in the characters before the time skip. They were more sympathetic then. Post-time skip, I feel like there's no characters left to root for.

 

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It looks like they're trying to make the Greens more likeable this season, as they were pretty unambiguously the 'bad guys' in the last one, so they're giving their actors room to add more depth to their performances I think. Aegon's actor, Tom Glynn-Carney has been given more space to show these new dimensions to his character this season than anyone else so far, so it might just be recency bias on my part, as most of the other characters have more or less remained the same as they were in the season one finale.

On paper Aegon is a bit of a monster, and shouldn't be all that relatable, but the actor makes him likeable and funny, and a somewhat tragic, if pathetic figure. He's also written to be refreshingly honest, and in a position to cut through the bullshit and talk about things as he sees them. I think that he's smart enough to recognise his own weaknesses. If I'm right, his character is going to change drastically in the next few episodes as he reacts to the death of his son, and I think he's going to start taking the centre stage a lot more. I think that Aegon's actor is basing his performance a bit on what a young Viserys might have looked like, had he not been raised by more competent guardians.

He obviously doesn't want to be king, but he's giving it his best shot. He's not a particularly good father to his children, but he's trying to prepare his heir for the throne in his own way. He's immature, but earnest. Unlike most of the other characters at court he's honest about his intentions, and they also gave him some pretty good lines. I'm just really enjoying his performance so far.

 

I'm sticking around for Smith and D'Arcy being phenomenal acting talents, but the sloggy #drama of The Dance itself is barely holding my attention.

And the character work for everyone that isn't Daemon/Rhaenyra/Alicent has been extremely forgettable since mid S1.

Not sure I'm gonna get through 4-5 seasons of this level of drag.

 

Exact opposite for me; or rather I guess I dislike the way they are interpreting those events. I liked Luke's death, but that was the only major deviation from the books I've enjoyed thus far.

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I felt Blood and Cheese was much more impactful the way it was in the books. During the scene, I was distracted because they literally mentioned "just look for which baby has a penis" and for some godforsaken reason the other guy refused and demanded she tell them. I found Erryk's (Arryk's?) suicide at the end of the fight a little stupid, even though I really liked the scene leading up to it. There were multiple parts where the characters in story seemed to acknowledge real life criticism (Daemon and Rhaenys) and then just move on without really addressing it, which is fine in tiny amounts as character disagreements but makes me fear for the season 7-8 GOT "I've acknowledged the writing flaws, so we can now move on to make more". I generally like the way Aemond gives off school shooter vibes, and even though the brothel scene made me feel uncomfortable I like the way the show went with his character, which I think is an improvement on the books for me.

 

I've seen a wide spectrum of complaints from viewers about the child murder scene. I have not read the books, but I think I have a decent impression of the book version, which seems to be on the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to violence and sadism. I wonder how much of this is genuine dissatisfaction with book-to-adaptation changes and how much stems from the general audience desensitization to onscreen violence. It's been a decade since the Red Wedding, stabbing a pregnant woman in the baby belly isn't hardcore anymore. Sawing off a toddler's head doesn't fill the gore meter.

Honestly, to me the book version seems like what you'd see in edgelord indy Harry fanfics from the 2000s about how badly Dursleys abused Harry. It's not enough that he lived in a storage cupboard and was verbally reprimanded for existing, no, that's not hardcore enough, he must also be sexually abused and beaten bloody on the regular.

Stop and think about what you watched. Two brutes came in out of nowhere and made Helaena point out her son, then they unceremoniously decapitated the kid while she collected her daughter and went to seek help. Is this really not horrifying enough for you? At which point does a scene like this just turn into something that belongs in a medieval Saw spin-off? We all know what Saw movies are: gratuitous violence for the sake of gratuitous violence. That's not what this show is.

I think the angle of telling the "true" version of events that became exaggerated in a book is smart storytelling and the show spins it into a sequence of events that serves to escalate the stakes and heighten the drama.

Luke's death was a tragic accident stemming from Aemond's unresolved anger. Deamon the Impulsive's cunning plan for retaliation goes sideways and the result is another unintended tragedy. Otto, the smart bastard that he is, spins it into political influence in a wonderful display of manipulation. Then Aegon, in his grief, finds a way to give the smallfolk of King's Landing a reason to hate him anyway. The Blacks see the boy's death for what it is: a huge blow to their legitimacy.

Political capital is built up and spent, actions provoke reactions that make sense, dominos fall. This is what I find satisfying about this show. I just don't see how HOTD would benefit from giving more screentime to even more brutally traumatizing Helaena.

 

I don't think thats a fair summation of the criticism. It isn't *just* that it was less violent and sadistic, though that is a small part of it. It's that during that scene I was wondering why Heleana was there at all, why Blood and Cheese acted the way they did, and what difference this change made to the story. It distracted me from what was meant to be a very important and emotional scene.

In the book, traumatizing Helaena is the entire point. That's why she's there, that's why they leave her alive, that's the entire point of the scene. Why is Helaena in the show scene? Because she happened to be there, and because one guy was fine murdering a baby but looking for a penis was a step too far for him. Why was she left alive? Because the baby murderers are honorable and keep their word.

I generally dislike the direction of making Rhaenyra and Alicent more sympathetic and not responsible for these actions because I enjoyed the Amoral Asshole vs Amoral Asshole dynamic of the book, but whatever that's a story direction the show decided to take and it's better they stick to it rather than wildly swerving now.

Edit: I agree that the politics of Aegon and Otto and Alicent and their clashing dynamics are improvements to the books.

 

I'll stop you right there.

This is a live action show. It's an adaptation. Adaptations can, and should, make changes, because it's simply not possible to translate the written word into the visual medium of a show 1 to 1. I honestly don't give two shits if the point of the scene in the book is traumatizing Helaena. The point of the scene in the show is spelled out in the episode title: a son for a son.

 

How does that in anyway shape or form explain away the inconsistent actions of Blood and Cheese? Like in-universe, show only, why did they need Helaena, what was the point of leaving her alive.

 

This exactly. A child's head being sawn off is absolutely horrifying, I think the way they did it here makes a bit more sense than the book too, when you consider how the secret passages are used in asoiaf. They were very lucky to run into no guards, but I suppose some of them had their hands full. They also had to move quickly, and seemed like the type of murderers who would kill a child, but not enjoy killing a child, so it making them less sadistic also works better.

 

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Mixed feelings about tonight's episode. I thought the last 20 mins were well done and things will hopefully get moving next episode. Making Alicent clear on what Viserys meant was definitely a good idea. I liked that we got some more screentime with Baela and Rhaena, they've been in the background so long lol. But idk, 2nd filler episode in a row. The first season felt like it was constantly moving, and I thought season 1 finale was the "oh fuck we're at war moment". Like they were both crowned then lol. But it feels like they've drawn out the brink of war moment too much now.

I don't appreciate how the show is treating Daemon tho. I've been going through the book more while reading this and there he's the uncontested biggest power of their side, the only person Aemond fears and immensely admired and accomplished. Him capturing Harrenhal isn't something he does on a whim that no one knows about, its a great victory that shocks Aegon into action in the book. I get that the show probably feels that the wankery for Daemon is a bit sexist, but I still feel like their portrayal of him being a whiney vain and insecure guy whose triumphs are mostly attributed to the privilege of his birth is too far from the book. Aemond and Criston in comparison are treated pretty favorably.

 

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I feel as if the Blacks other than Rhaenyra and Daemon aren't allowed to do anything interesting. Jace has had his entire plotline either removed or given to other people. Rhaena has had 3 lines all season. Baela is a bit better off, but not by much. Joffrey Aegon and Viserys have nada. Corlys is barely present. They have all this time to flesh out Aegon, Aemond, Helaena and Alicent. Couldn't they at least give some scraps to the Black children?

 

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I was really liking this episode until Rhaenyra met with Alicent. What the actual flying draconic fuck was that.

 

Not sure why we keep using spoiler tags in the thread meant for discussing the show. If someone comes here before watching, that's their own choice.

Episode 4 is top tier.

Aegon is a Joffrey-esque viscious idiot king and it was about time someone told him that to his face. Contrasting Aemond's fluent Valyrian with Aegon's clearly neglected Valyrian as a metaphor for competence was a great bit of characterization. The difference between these brother is also interesting in the context of the Daemon/Viserys relationship in season one. Aemond and Daemon are similar: the younger brother with martial skill who thinks the king is a weak fool. Aegon and Viserys are very different. Viserys listened to his councillors and successfully kept peace, Aegon is, like I said, a Joffrey kind of king.

I loved the moment in battle when Aemond went all in on friendly fire. He weakened Meleys for the kill (though I don't think he expected Rhaenys to make an attack run on him, I certainly didn't) and he's kind of in a win-win position here. If Aegon dies, he will just take the throne, because who would stop him? Aegon has no male heir. Things have gone beyond the point of no return, the Greens won't just back down if Aegon were to die. If Aegon survives, it's not like he will execute Vhagar's rider after Aemond's just proved how important he is to the Greens' power. Aemond has shown that he's willing to disobey and outright attack his brother, if Aegon acts out against Aemond, I think Aemond would have no qualms becoming a kingslayer and king if pushed to it. The goofy idiots appointed to the Kingsguard won't be able to stop him and Cole is far away from King's Landing.

Daemon's mind-screw at Harrenhall was amusing and did not overstay its welcome. The bulk of the screentime was dedicated to politics and battle, so this part of the episode was a nice change of pace. I'm also amused by Daemon's night time power walking in a gown, with a sword out. He's so out of his element when faced with a challenge he can't solve with murder.

Rhaenys' death will shift the balance of power, dragon-wise. I'm also still waiting for the showrunner to remember Vermithor. I'm hoping he's not pulling a D&D-esque "kinda forgot" about the fuckhuge dragon Daemon woke up last season.

 

Once again quoting myself from 2021 when casting choices for this show were being discussed in another thread. Apologies if I'm getting repetitive with this but considering how long ago some of these discussions were and how GRRM is now echoing some of the exact same sentiments in his blog posts, I thought it was worth revisiting (also known as 'saying I told you so' to no one in particular). It's just so frustrating because I did enjoy the spectacle of the last episode, but I can't really get into this show as a whole when they seem to be intent on running roughshod over the author's original intent for no obvious benefit.

Here's what I said last year after seeing the show's take on Aemond's killing of Lucerys:

Now compare these quotes with what GRRM had to say on producers adapting works about a month ago:

I was feeling pretty vindicated when I read that a while back, his blog post from yesterday (which I'd recommend reading if you're at all interested in the series, pretty interesting stuff) furthered that feeling with this quote:

The last part ties into what I was saying about how things can rapidly go off the rails with even small changes due to the intricate nature of the worldbuilding GRRM does. An example of this is the conflict between discussion between Jace and Cregan at the beginning of this season of how Silverwing refused to fly over the wall, and then remembering how Drogon did that with zero issues in GoT.

This rant from GRRM is likely in anticipation of an upcoming change that reportedly has been leaked/is somewhat telegraphed from scenes we've already seen:

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That being the fact that Nettles (one of George and the readers' favourite characters due to how interesting she is, and being one of the only canonically Black characters with a significant role in the series) has been written out and her role in the story taken by Rhaena. Rumour has it she's going to find Sheepstealer in the Vale, hence George's somewhat rant about how that doesn't make sense with his dragon lore. More importantly I think (but perhaps more difficult for him to discuss publicly) is the huge ramifications this change has on the story as a whole, particularly the impact it has on the ending of the two main characters of the Dance in Daemon and Rhaenyra. Hard to see how they'll make everything work in the end with this change, and just confusing why they thought there was even a need to do so?

I think a lot of these changes are in service of making Rhaenyra/the Blacks more sympathetic or cool to audiences, and ironically by doing so they've made the Blacks as a whole much less interesting. The Greens have had by far the better scenes this season. Jace has had nothing to do in the part of the story he was most interesting in the book, and I'm pretty confident they're going to give one of his best moments to Rhaenyra by having her take over the 'Sowing of the Seeds' plotline judging by the trailer shot of her with Vermithor. The continued focus on Alicent at this point is just bizarre when most of her relevance to the story is over (and what relevance she did have they took away by removing her from the Blood and Cheese scene). The less said about the whole 'secret agent Rhaenyra infiltrating King's Landing' the better, although funnily enough while writing this I did spot this quote from Lamora (someone whose writing abilities I respect) from last season that described how laughable it is that she spent so much time this season still seeking peace:

I guess I'm still watching, but it's honestly just because it is really cool seeing some of these things depicted visually. Acting, set work, costuming, CGI - all incredible art that I really enjoy. It's just such a shame the writers can't fuck off and let the story be adapted properly. Honestly, did HBO learn nothing from Game of Thrones? One day I do think we will get adaptations of these stories that are much more accurate to George's vision and I think they'll be really incredible, I'm just sad that day isn't today when it very easily could have been.

 

@Fatality I am assuming Alicent is getting more screentime because the show is trying to depict women in a stronger light. love it or hate it, HoTD is centered around the women. Plus, her actress is pretty good IMO.

Putting aside the whole "make them their own" part, what exactly do you expect from adaptations?

A one to one recreation of the source material? Isn't that boring as fuck?

In your opinion, what would the perfect adaptation look like?