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How does the MoM prevent Goblins from getting wands?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by FridgeViking, Jul 23, 2019.

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How does the MoM prevent Goblins from getting wands?

  1. Goblins cant use wizards wands

    16.0%
  2. The Wand Ban of 1631 is a spell

    24.0%
  3. Fear of reprisal

    48.0%
  4. The Goblins already have wands and are hiding it from the wizards

    8.0%
  5. Other

    20.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. FridgeViking

    FridgeViking Squib

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    So I was recently reading a next-gen fic following Teddy Lupin that deals with a Goblin rebellion, with Goblins stealing the wands of Hogwarts students. That got me wondering, how does the MoM prevent them from doing that in canon? I mean it seems that their lack of wands is a major issue for them. Why don't they just steal them? Or failing that get a disreputable wandmaker to make them or teach them how. They definitely have the gold to pay them, and their has to be more wandmakers in Europe than just Ollivander and Gregorovitch.

    That raises the question if Goblins can probably get their hands on wands why don't they? I started brainstorming and came up with a few possible reasons
    1. Goblins cant use wizards wands. In DH Griphook says:
      So the secrets of wandlore that Griphook mentions I think can refer to two separate but related things. The actual manufacturing of wands, or the process by which a magical creature makes use of a wand. That means Goblins don't steal wands because there would be no point. Without the knowledge on how to use wands they would just be sticks of wood. Goblins would need to craft wands made specifically for Goblins in order to get them to work. This theory unfortunately has a number of holes, most pressing being the scene with Winky during the quidditch world cup. The fact many ministry officials believed that it was credible that a house-elf could be the one to cast the Dark mark really poke holes into the idea that Goblins can't use wizards wands. While House elves aren't Goblins them seemly being able to use wizard wands without anything special about the wand, makes the idea Goblins can't strange. Also wands are a very old magic, with Olivandres being open since 382B.C. While the making of modern wands may be very complex, the complexity was probably iterative with the first wands being quite simple. So Goblins not figuring out how to make a basic wand in over two thousand years would be quite strange.
    2. The Wand Ban of 1631 is a spell. The idea is that the wand ban is similar to the Trace or the Taboo, with an alarm going off at the Ministry every time a non-human uses a wand. This idea is my personal favorite, with it tying in quite neatly with Taures theory that the Ministry has special powers given their authority. The problems with it are the Winky scene again; though that can be sidestepped by saying that it requires using a spell not just holding a wand. It does raise the question of why would they continue to interrogate her, when they can just go back to the Ministry and know definitively if she cast the Dark Mark? Another issue would be how the spell would interact with part-humans such as Hagrid or Flitwick, would they just not register or something else?
    3. Fear of reprisal. It could be that wands are such a red-line with the Ministry that no Goblin wouldn't dare cross it. This has issues in the sense that it would be strange for an entire race to have the same opinion.
    4. The Goblins already have wands and are hiding it from the wizards. This is the least satisfying answer for obvious reasons; though I guess the next Goblin rebellion will be quite interesting.
    Those were the reasons I was able to come up with. Which one do you think is most likely, and is there something obvious that I am missing?
     
  2. Paradise

    Paradise Paraplegic Dice DLP Supporter

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    From what we know of canon wand crafting is a specialized skill that takes years to hone, and the knowledge is passed down master to apprentice. The wandcrafters we meet are old and slightly eccentric, Grengovitch and Ollivander.

    Basically my headcanon always was, Wizards killed all the Goblin wandcrafters at the end of the Rebellion or during, and afterwards forbade any Wizard wandcrafter to distribute their wares to goblins. Once all the wandcrafters that were goblin were dead it becomes impossible for them to make any wands. The knowledge becomes lost and over generations they forget what they once had.
     
  3. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Presumably it's enforced the same way as any other law: arrest and imprisonment for any individual (goblin or wizard) found to be in violation of the law. There may well be numerous goblins in Azkaban for wand possession.
     
  4. Download

    Download Seventh Year ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    A combination of fear of reprisal and wizards not sharing the knowledge on making wands with Goblins.

    I'm pretty sure that there was a suggestion somewhere in canon of goblins stealing wands.
     
  5. Anarchy

    Anarchy Half-Blood Prince DLP Supporter

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    This kinda comes down to how hard is it to actually make wands. Master wandcrafters are one thing, but do goblins need masterwork wands to have a rebellion? I can't picture goblins just sitting around moping for 500 years without even trying to make a wand, regardless of how shitty it was. It's one thing to say that there's a "trick" to making a wand, but what exactly is that trick? Balancing your chi to make sure two incompatible components will coexist in harmony? Presumable Ollivander is making a couple hundred of these a year (if he's truly the only English wandmaker), so it can't be too extreme to make one. You could *maybe* restrict access to wand woods and cores, but it seems like acquiring smuggled wand ingredients is as possible as it is to just get the wands themselves. Hell, they could just open up their own vaults and plunder any human wands that happened to be there.

    I'm with Taure on this one. I don't think it's restricted from the creation side of things. Could be something like a variant of detecting underage magic, except tuned for non-humans. Maybe even a spell on the wand itself, making jailbroken wands very valuable, and people who can do that even more so. A rogue wandmaker could very easily stoke the flames of rebellion.
     
  6. Clerith

    Clerith Ahegao Emperor ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    A very interesting question.

    I think goblins stealing human wands would result in very substandard performance. There's the wand ownership thing, having a suitable wand, years of magical training to effectively use a wand, as well as the fact that goblins aren't humans. Veela hair was mentioned by Ollivander to be an unreliable core, iirc? But it worked for Fleur, who has veela ancestry. Similarly, I don't think wands made for humans would be a good fit for goblins.

    If given time and resources, goblins would probably figure out how to craft wands and cast spells with them, but considering the law, it's just not happening.

    I imagine golins have stolen and tried to use wands during all the goblin rebellions, to little effect. I also imagine wizards managed to retrieve all the wands after suppressing the rebellions. I suppose it's possible the goblins have some wands hidden away, deep below Gringotts, trying to figure them out, but I can't see the Ministry allowing that to happen, they have magic for locating things.

    It's definitely a combination of things, wandcrafting being a difficult and complex art, being kept solely in human hands for centuries, the law prohibiting it and not allowing goblins time to experiment. But ultimately, it's the law and the fear of reprisal that keeps the status quo.
     
  7. crimson sun06

    crimson sun06 Unspeakable

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    I believe channeling magic through wands requires specialized training like the ones provided in Hogwarts and other schools. Simply restricting access to that education could go a long way in fulfilling this purpose.
     
  8. Warlocke

    Warlocke Prisoner

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    Other: They keep the wands next to the soap.
     
  9. TheWiseTomato

    TheWiseTomato Prestigious Tomato ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Mass executions.
     
  10. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter

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    Good thread example from someone who isn't exactly new to the site but still hasn't been too active. Combination of the poll with a robust initial post plus a topic that can generate a bit of discussion feels good.

    I'm inspired for more of this randomness.
     
  11. wordhammer

    wordhammer Dark Lord DLP Supporter

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    I can't help but believe that there is a basic incompatibility between wands and goblins. They may be able to steal them from wizards, but the goblins' inherent focus on non-spell magic leaves them incapable of really leveraging a wands full capabilities.

    The question of 'why' calls for a more 'out-there' reasoning. I've had this notion for a while that spirits are roaming around and are used to give independence of action to animated and otherwise enchanted objects. Wands in particular exhibit a consistent personality independent of the wizard using it. So, if we assume that the spirits inhabiting wands tend to come from echoes of wizards that died, the wands may have the echo of a prejudice against goblins, or more simply they think and respond in more human ways, making it difficult for goblins to channel their intentions through a non-goblinoid spirit.
     
  12. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter

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    My personal HeadCanon is that Wizard magic requires a wand, but not all forms of magic do. So in order to cast Protego specifically a Goblin would need a wand, same for any other wand spells. But that doesn't mean they don't have their own equally effective forms of magic.

    The reason that's my headcanon is Winky. At the Quidditch World Cup fiasco she was accused of casting the Dark Mark because she had a wand. But it's not like House Elves need wands to do magic - they do it all the damn time.

    So my take-away is that non-humans can use all sorts of magic, maybe even have their own complex magic systems, but that casting any Wizard spells would require them to have a wand. No other way to cast those specific spells. And it could be that Wizard spells are much more versatile than anything else, hence why they might want to but not NEED to.

    Headcanon only tho.
     
  13. Distended Destiny

    Distended Destiny DA Member

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    I don't think we ought to focus on this. JKR focused on the ineptness of governments throughout the series. A more relevant dialogue would be this:
    The emphasis laid on wizards' signs requiring a wand leads me to believe that it is more likely only wizards are able to use wands, otherwise a different reasoning would have been laid out.
    Tbh I am not sure house elves are apt for comparison given that we know their magic is equivalent to wand magic done wandlessly.

    EDIT: I am not sure why so many of you chose fear of reprisal. Goblins were able to revolt multiple times and at the time of canon, serve as a huge (maybe monopolistic) banker. I would say they are at par with wizards, so would not fear reprisal.

    EDIT2: A little further down, I came across this:
    It looks like law rather than any magic. Still don't know whether goblins can use wands though.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  14. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

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    This really is the best and simplest answer. There's no need for massively elaborate and over-complicated explanations. There's no need for crazy Epileptic Trees-style theories. Goblins aren't allowed to own or manufacture wands, and even if they get one they don't have any of the training on how to use them.
     
  15. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    If the answer was that goblins aren't able to use wands anyway, you'd hardly need to ban them from having any.

    It's clear enough that wizards take a lot of care to keep intelligent non-humans down. The simple answer for "how" is that there were a million goblin rebellions, and since wizards won, goblins don't have wands. If goblins did acquire wands, it would be a casus belli. And if wizards won again, goblins would lose the wands again. Ad infinitum.

    Tbh, I never even asked this question, because it seemed so obvious to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
  16. Ceies

    Ceies Squib

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    I think it's possible, that they CAN use wands, but their wands would be different. You know how diferent wizards need different wands to perform proper magic while the wrong wand can lead to terrible results? It's possible that for a goblin the wand would have to be different on a fundamental level. Maybe they need a different wood, different shape or length, or maybe unicorn hair, phoenix feather or dragon heart string doesn't go that well with goblin magic.
    That of course wouldn't necessarily mean that they can't do magic with 'wizard wands' at all, just that their skill with these wands would be very limited.

    This is of course all theory. The - I guess you could say - more canon-backed theory would be that they have in the past rebelled and fought for their right to hold wands multiple times with bloody results and are now begrudgingly accepting the status quo. That is of course only until inavitably anoter goblin picks up a wand and maybe triggers another rebellion.
    I do somewhat assume that their ban on wands may be tide to their full control over Gringotts. That again is only my personal headcanon though.
     
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