Dumbledore beat Voldemort at the ministry of magic.

It was only due to a betrayal and old age that he died.

 

Ok, here is my take:

Dumbledore is not the most powerful wizard in the world. That title goes to Voldemort. Dumbledore comes up at a close second. However, people want to recognize Dumbledore for that title to make themselves feel better. Now, it is said that Voldemort went through many, many power rituals, where as Dumbledore has refrains from these dark rituals.

This implies that Dumbledore is more power naturally, that is, he was born with more power than Tom Riddle. Should Dumbledore go through all those power rituals himself, he'd be pretty bad ass.

Now, the reason Dumbledore wins in their duel is a good century of experience he has on Voldemort. I also think that once you get to a certain power level, magical strength matters less and less and skill matters more and more.

People always say that it is unrealistic to have the 3 most powerful wizards in the world come from Hogwarts.

Well, Tom Riddle wasn't really uberPowerful when he was born, he used all these rituals. So, chance did not really play a hand here.

Harry is only powerful because the prophecy makes him powerful.

That means, the only wizard that was powerful by chance is Dumbledore.

 

You mention rituals, but in canon we're never told about them. It only mentions transformations, which creating horcruxes comes under.

As for saying that Voldemort has more power than Dumbledore but Dumbledore has more experience, I would say that in order to have power, you must have experience. Power is not the same as raw strength, power is far more. You get many things that add to your power - and although raw strength is one, so is experience and knowledge. Another factor could be political power.

 

I didn't read it as Dumbledore winning at the DoM.

In fact, he was getting beaten, and was about to be hit with an AK from Voldemort. Fawkes saved him then, popping in and taking it for Dumbledore.

Their dueling prowess is about equal, but Voldemort was able to slip one through. THis doesn't mean Voldy is a better duelist...anyhting is possible in a fight.

The way i reason it is this:

- Voldemort is powerful. (No ranking given at the moment.)

- Dumbledore is powerful.

- Prophecy states Dumbledore hasn't got a chance at beating Voldemort.

- Voldemort, though, can kill Dumbledore. Nothing saying that he can't.

Voldemort, therefore, has a power that Dumbledore does not...the power to kill him.

Now...there are a lot of people that will say "Dumbledore is far more powerful/more powerful than Voldemort...the only reason he can't kill Voldemort is because of the Prophecy."

That's all well and good, but i think differently.

Sure, the prophecy states that Dumbles doesn't have a chance. I think that if someone with greater power existed, that person could kill VOldemort. It's all a matter of Magical Prowess, IMO. Why would magic make a decision so arbitrary as to leave the power to kill Voldemort, some bullshit power, with some kid who i\s magically inferior to Voldemort by far? Seems wrong to me.

Going with that idea, Harry has to be more opwerful than Dumbledore if he can kill Voldemort. They are equals...both Harry and Voldemort can kill Dumbledore, but Dumbledore CANNOT kill either of them. Only they can kill each other. If Harry goes bezerk and starts killing people, Dumbledore cannot do anything but imprison him. A dementor's kiss, going by the Prophecy, will not work.

Therefore, i put Dumbledore as Number 2 on the power rankings, and Voldemort and Harry as tied for Number 1.

Out of Canon, it is always nicer, especially when writing Manipulative!Dumbledore that Harry has more power.

 

No, Harry is not number one. That's just wistful super!Harry thinking. Voldemort trains for decades and Dumbledore for over a century. Then suddenly Harry becomes of equal or more power than them both? No. (Yes, I'm a Dumbles and Voldie fan, but look at it logically.)

Also, Dumbledore and Voldemort are equal. Yes, Dumbledore can't kill Voldemort but in however many years, Voldemort couldn't kill Dumbledore. To me, that puts them both on the same platform.

 

Sorry to say this, but in canon, Harry is just an average wizard, with "the power he knows not". That's unfortunately painfully obvious after HBP.

I mean, there are only two hints that Harry is above-average in terms of power:

- Patronius: Ahh, but what is required to power up a Patronius? Happiness, love. So, this is probably that power he knows not. Unless there are some other spells powered up like this, I don't think this'll help Harry to become the next dark lord.

- The Prophecy: Harry is supposed to be an equal to Voldemort, right? BUT, there's no mention whatsoever of magical power. Could it speak of their childhoods, looks, ideals or lengths of their dicks? Who knows. Only one thing is certain, if Harry is equal to Voldemort, that so should be Neville, who's born on the same date. And we know that it's not the case.

On the other hand, there are numerous hints of his average power: his school grades, OWL scores and general success in classes (hell, it took him three weeks to manage Accio). Yes, there are components of stupidity and laziness here, but a powerful wizard would at least manage to learn spells faster than Hermione.

But the real kicker for powerful!Harry is HBP. In that book, JKR had basically said, in no uncertain terms, that Harry is NOT powerful (in classical sense). Hints:

- Dumbledore refuses to train him in advanced magic. Considering that canon!Dumbledore is not manipulative and he doesn't want Harry to fail by placing magical blocks on him, there's only one explanation left: Harry is simply not powerful enough to master spells like that.

- Harry's attempt to perform wandless magic after getting cursed by Draco (HBP). Harry says himself that powerful wizards can do wandless magic if they concentrate and then he himself spectacularly fails to perform it after hours of meditation.

- We see Riddle's childhood, where he learned wandless magic even before Hogwarts and already knew he was a wizard. Harry, of course, had no clue of this and could remember only handful of times he had performed wandless magic, which was always something harmless and never powerful enough to protect him from the Dursleys, like it protected Tom in orphanage.

- And the final nail in the coffin - the scene in the cave. The boat measures ones magical power and checks if it matches Riddle's. BOTH Dumbledore and Harry enters the boat and ONLY their combined magic is enough to reach Riddle's level.

Here's what Dumbledore has to say about it:

."

But Harry is almost 17, right? He's not underage and unqualified anymore. If you ask me, this is just a nice way for Dumbledore to say that Harry is simply not on his and Voldemort's level in terms of magical power.

So, we can twist hints one way or the other, but the fact remains that JKR plans her series to show how love is greater than might... and she sacrificed Harry's power to prove that. No wishfull thinking on our part will ever change that.

 

Thank you, someone else gets why Harry is portrayed as average. *Wipes forehead in relief*

 

Master Slytherin: Yes, but that doesn't eman that Voldemort cannot kill Dumbledore. If the two of them had a fight to the death, with Harry doing nothing, then Voldemort would win. No other way. The prophecy forbids Dumbledore from killing Voldemort. Not the other way. Let's say Fawkes took another AK for Dumbles. What next? The next one would get him.

Meh, IP...you make a very good point, but i...eh. Don't get me wrong...by canon, i entirely agree with you. In canon, Harry Potter is not magically powerful. He is above average, but that's about it. He has love to be his little advantage.

JK kinda screwed herself here...unless she does some magical maturity thing for his 17th birthday. There's no way he's gonna overcome an enchantment like that again, if he isn't powerful enough.

Here...with the boat, Dumbledore SAYS "I think it unlikely that your powers will register compared to mine". Voldemort doesn't expect a 16 year old, so the enchantment is unlikely to even examine Harry's magic. Dumbledore is there, and he is definitely on Voldemort's keep-away-from list, which means that the enchantment, if Voldemrot put some sort of decision-making capability in it, would instantly focus on him.

Then again, you could think of it this way. The boat measures magical power. Harry is Voldemort's equal. Dumbledore could be wrong...maybe the enchantment assumes that Harry is Voldemort, since they are equals, and that Dumbledore is an accomplice, like some Death Eater.

Now here's a plot hole:

RAB got onto the boat and crossed in it. Is he of equal power? Unless JK is inventing characters with massive power, i think not. He got the locket out. I don't think he made his way past the enchantment...Dumbledore took the boat, so why would RAB be able to perform some feat of magic that DUMBLEDORE can't?

Tom: Sure, he performed some wandless (accidental) magic...but Harry APPARATED. In one sitting, he not only blew up his aunt, but also caused the cupboard to unlock, and the door to burst open. All without explodig in some massive ball of magic. Now, JK used those examples of wandless magic to show that he was a mean little bastard, not to show that even as a child, he was inordinately powerful. After all, as someone pointed out, Dumbledore is naturally that powerful, while Voldemort is ahead of him because of rituals.

About canon Dumbledore not teaching Harry powerful spells...i dunno.

That's in character for him. He doesn't even make an attempt at continuing Occlumency training. He seems to be fixated on the horcruxes, and doesn't do ANYTHING except show memories and talk about horcruxes. At the very least, Harry should be able to manage Auror-level spells, even if it takes him weeks to learn them. Anything is better than nothing. As you said, JK focuses on Love being better than might, so the whole thing is to show Harry how unloved Tom was.

Okay...Dumbledore placed Harry with the Dursleys for 2 reasons.

1) safety. Ignore this.

2) so he wouldn't get a big head. Obviously, this infers that he was, to some extent, afraid that Harry might get enamored by the wrong sort of people. If Harry ended up hanging around with the Malfoys or some Neutral family, and ended up as a Dark Lord or a Dark WIzard by his definition, then he would be something undesirable. Aurors take care of Dark Wizards all the time, correct? But Dumbledore put effort into this...this leads me to believe that Harry, if he turned dark, would be more dangerous than the average crook in Knocturn Alley. This isn't conclusive in the least, i know, just wanted to throw that out there.

Wandless magic...yes, powerful wizards can do it. Harry might be powerful, but as with all things, you need some training to be able to do something properly. He has trouble with learning spells with a wand even in a few weeks, going by your example of the accio spell, so expecting him to solve his problems in an hour or so without a wand is a bit unrealistic. Refer back to the summer before his thrid year...he, in a very controlled action, blows up his aunt, unlocks and then blows apart the cupboard door. Powerful?

Okay...i agree with you. Canon Harry is not powerful. Dumbeldore is, and Voldemort is. These are just little...i don't know whats.

Cheers

 

Yeah I've already bitched about this, it's a giant plot-hole.

The fact remains that both Harry and Tom were raised in similar, opressive surroundings. But while Tom figured out a way to control his magic, Harry had no clue that he was even magical, EVEN after numerous hints that his relatives let go about his freak powers and such...

Yeah, Harry could master auror-level spells, but he could never handle the kind of magic Tom and Albus use in MOM. That's why Dumbledore never prepared him - there's simply nothing to prepare for, when all he needs is this fantastic power of love to come in play.

Even if Dumbledore was training Harry his whole life, he'd only get one very frustrated auror-level wizard - frustrated because he KNOWS he's not up to Tom's level. Like this, Harry can at least cling to an illusion of being Tom's 'equal'. That's why Dumbledore never even tried to train him - hope (false or not) and optimism are better than marginally better training, that can't reach Tom's level anyway.

Because, unlike the rest of the world, Dumbledore KNOWS that Harry has no special power level. By keeping him out of the wizarding world and setting up various 'tasks' over the years, he kept Harry shrouded in a layer of mystery and fame.

Honestly, that's probably the best way he could have both prepared Harry for his fate (real-life training) AND given him another weapon against the dark (his reputation and mysteriousness - after all, Voldemort wanted to kill Harry HIMSELF. If he thought Harry was nothing special, he'd just have Malfoy do it while in school).

Bottom line, yes we can twist the clues and explain all Harry's shortcomings. But that doesn't change the fact that Harry in canon, however we wished him to be someone special, is just an average Joe, who will, with the power of his mother's sacrifice and his own love for Ginny, defeat the darkest dark lord in history and proove that dick is more powerful than sword... or was it pen? Meh, chicks can use them both...

 

I totally agree that Harry is pretty much average.

If he wasn't, then what's the point of fanfiction?

Another thing: You can't expect Harry to be at Tom's level. Tom went through those "transformations" to increase his power. Even if Harry was at Tom's natural power, he certainly isn't now.

Tom needed all that extra power to match and surpass Dumbeldore by a little, meaning Dumbledore has waaayyy more magical potential than Harry.

Harry's patronus was the product of months of work.

JKR is setting up for a power means nothing in the face of love storyline.

Face it, embrace it, and write a fanfiction totally twisting that.

But another thing:

Maybe someone should write a story where Harry is not powerful at all. He does rituals to increase his power.

That would make a killer Dark/independent/evil Harry story.

 

There is a story by Big D with a premise like that. It's only that he gets sex slaves and with each slave, his power level grows.

 

From the note it can be seen that Regulus (assuming that he is RAB) stole the horcrux before he left Voldemort's service. So, it may be that he was the one entrusted to place the horcrux there in the first place. It wouldn't be the only time that Voldemort trusted a Death Eater with a part of his soul.

Therefore it may be that RAB didn't have to get past the enchantment at all.

As for Harry apperating as a child, I assume you are refering to when he ended up on the roof? It never says in canon that he apperated...in fact it says that he was trying to jump behind the bins and ended up on the roof...sounds like a magically enhanced jump to me, not apperating.

 

Yea, but that wasn't really a serious story. It was smut-galore.

Anyone want to write a story like that?

Or maybe I can incorperate it into one of my other stories, having him use all these rituals.

I just don't want to turn Harry into some snake like monster.

 

Taure: true...but he replaced the Horcrux with a fake. Unless, and this is very convenient , he had a fake with him on his VOldemort-sponsored trip to the cave, he had to have gone back by himself, and crossed the lake and put the fake locket in. Lot of trouble to go through, eh?

And with the magically enhanced jump...it is possible, yeah, but we haven't seen anything like that in canon.

I'm being a bastard...excuse my asshole tendencies.

IP: yeah. He really is just a dweeb in canon. Thank god for FFs...it allows for a much more vivid imagination, and a more powerful Harry.

But then, how is he Voldemort's equal? Equal means 'the same'. While it's obvious that he cannot be the same person (or can he...Demon God of Chaos), there are very few places in ehich he is similar to Tom.

1) Parseltongue
2) Bad upbringing.
3) errr...there are no more things i can think of.

Luckily, Fanfic writers expand on this little point in the Prophecy. Otherwise, he really just would be a dweeb.

 

Something that you always come across (even in this thread) is that Merlin and the Founders are the greatest wizards evah. Everytime Harry or whoever timetravels back to the Founders' time, he gets trained by there über-powerful wizards and witches and learns powerful 'ancient' spells that have been 'lost in time' and nobody remembers in the present time. I think that's just shit.

First, the people: Why would they be powerful? Merlin was just a noteable wizard who founded the Order of Merlin (even his Chocolate Frog Card doesn't say anything about power. And the Founders founded a school. They didn't kill any Dark Lords or performed some gigantic magical feat. They just founded a school.

Second, 'ancient', powerful spells 'lost in time'. Now really, the Middle Ages aren't really ancient. And why would the spells be any more powerful than the modern ones (this also concerns Egyptian and whatnot spells)? They are a friggin millenium old. Surely in a thousand years they have come up with something new or improved? Or, if the spells were that great, why did nobody write them down? In a wizarding society that obviously had the means to find and integrate muggle borns into their schooling system, didn't they have things like, say, books?

(Great exception: Harry Potter and the Era of Hogwarts by Lord Ravenclaw (hopefully to be updated soon *hint*).)

 

Yeah, I have mentioned that before. How for some reason, Witches and Wizards of yesteryear were so much more powerful, being able to do wandless magic with ease. But since people started using wands, they lost their skills and became reliant on wands. When people do this in FF, I wonder... If they were so skilled at wandless magic, then why the hell would they start using wands?

 

Mcgonagall says the Founders were the best/strongest Witches and Wizards of their age.

 

Of their age...

Who's to say Dumbledore isn't stronger?

The way I see it, Dumbledore is more powerful than the founders. The founders were the stongest of their age, but only in certain areas - they were just accomplished.

Dumbledore is like the do all, and is the most powerful in battle as well.

Voldemort may beat Dumbledore in battle, but in other stuff?

Nah, he might be better versed in the dark arts, but in terms of magical theory and obscure arts Dumbledore is probably better.

And Harry?

Let's not even go there...

 

Refresh my memory for me please....Did Tom, really have a bad up bringing in cannon? I thought the lady Dumbledore met, at the orphanage, was alright enough...

 

He actually didn't have a bad upbringing.

He was never beaten, the kids wanted to be his friends , but he was a mean asshole. The lady tried to be nice with him and involve him with the kids, but, yet again, he was an asshole.

His "bad upbringing" is all his fault, he truly saw himslef as better. He steals stuff all the time from them and he used his gift to make fun of the kids and hurt them in the cave.

In fifth year he wasn't hurt, that's not why he didn't want to go back. He just didn't want to be surrounded by "filthy" muggles.

Crinkle, rape and abuse to him is all fanon.