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Is Ron an asshole?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Jenko, Feb 9, 2017.

  1. torrent56

    torrent56 Second Year

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    Well, I guess then Harry was totally right in goading him to leave after Ron expressed legitimate concerns and not even trying to talk with Ron rationally with the Horcrux off then.:confused:

    No when he volunteered it was under complete circumstances. It was at Dumbledore’s funeral when the Death Eaters haven’t took over the Ministry. Also you know it’s two different things to understand rationally the dangers and experiencing it firsthand right?

    Um, what? Ron just heard Ginny was being punished. It was the constant fear that his family will be targeted you know that’s the problem. Yeah sure, they were blood traitors, but if Ron wasn’t discovered, his family was still allowed to go about their daily lives you know.

    First see above. You know accepting something as a possibility and accepting it as it is actually happening is two completely different things?

    No you are misrepresenting what happened. Harry wasn’t just a bad leader for not having a brilliant plan he was a bad leader for actively making things worse than they were. He recklessly stole Moody’s eye during the Ministry break-in resulting in them losing their safe refuge, he made the moral of the group really bad by insisting the Horcrux must be worn instead of locking it up somewhere safe, he spent way spent way too much time on what Gregorovitch was doing, he showed no thoughts of trying to support his team members emotionally as a team leader should be among other things. For the record, I think he became the leader he should be after the shock at Malfoy Manor and Dobby’s death.

    It doesn’t matter if Ron and Hermione didn’t do much, they are not the freaking leader who should know what they were doing. Ron had every right to be angry with what was happening, especially if Harry repeatedly showed outward indifference at his concerns for the Weasleys.

    Yeah that’s Harry fault alright for making everyone wear the Horcrux. By the way, the fight happened when Ron was the wearing the Horcrux after Ron just found out his sister was in danger so your point about Hermione and Harry being more resilient is meaningless.

    Ron is emotional and has more burdens which explains why he was less resilient to the Horcrux fine I agree. Ron should have more self-control? Really? However do remember what a Horcrux did to Ginny for almost a year in CoS?


    That’s true, but you know if it weren’t for Harry goading him and Harry wishing to leave the river bank so soon after Ron left it wouldn’t even be necessary. I still don’t get why he couldn’t just wait a bit longer but anyway.
    It’s not exactly hard for Dumbledore to predict Ron will bulk first out of the Trio given he has a large family to worry about among other things and he DID NOT HAVE TO volunteer to put his life on the line you know given his blood status.


    Well by the same token Harry should have been a better leader like maybe seeking a bit of help when they were stuck when he decided to take on this mission that could decide the fate of the world. Things happen that differ from our expectation all the time; Ron got it wrong and wasn’t as well prepared as he could be. That was all. However I agree mostly with what you said otherwise.


    Hush, I am glad you like Ron because the whole point of Ron supporters is that he has flaws that make him relatable like Rhaeger said. I will do my best to respond to what you said.

    Wow, does that mean just because someone signed up for a potentially lethal mission they aren’t allowed to have second thoughts after several months because of their whole family’s safety and ignore it even when the leader kept making stupid mistakes?

    Well if they didn’t come all that will happen is Harry ends up killing himself before he could complete the quest so what does that do? Nope, Ron had every right when the circumstances changed (like Voldemort took over endangering everyone a lot more than before) to tell Harry “I cannot go on this mission because my family is in too much danger”. He would simply be choosing his family over his BFF who repeatedly leads them into unnecessary danger and that would be completely understandable. Also you know sometimes people don’t realise the consequences of their actions until much later. It wasn't make them scum.

    Harry appreciates the Weasleys alright in his heart but he was horrible at showing that affection especially in front of other people. Ron repeatedly asked Harry for news about his family but Harry doesn’t even have any words of comfort for him. When he found out Ginny was being led into the Forbidden Forest, his thoughts was big deal don’t you think from Ron’s POV it came across as a bit inadequate?

    Try reading DH again will you? Before Ron was discovered the Weasleys were tracked but still allowed to live their normal life and Arthur was even allowed to work at the Ministry; after Ron was discovered at the Malfoy Manor they all had to go into hiding. Try to think about what the consequences for the Weasleys would be if Ron was discovered earlier will you? Does Harry and Hermione have this problem?

    OK so the book made it clear that Harry realised that Ron and Hermione thought Dumbledore told him a secret plan he would eventually disclose to them in due course. It wasn’t what happened but that explained their reaction. I also think the dialogue they had during the fight was very telling: Ron and Hermione thought Harry knew more then he let on so he wasn’t the only one who made the mistake then Harry instead of trying to rationally talk with Ron about a way to resolve the problem became butthurt as usual when someone questions him and goaded Ron into leaving. Yeah, such a great leader.
    For the record, I think he became the leader he should be after the shock at Malfoy Manor and Dobby’s death.


    So is Harry not petty and bad friend just like Ron and your leader telling you that you aren’t wanted isn’t his fault? Ron didn’t take off the locket when Hermione told him to because Harry instead of showing understanding as a leader should be lashed out as usual even when he wasn’t the locket. Could it be that you know, both of them were in the wrong instead of it entirely being one person’s fault? As for Hermione telling him to take off the locket, it’s unfortunate human tendency to focus on the hurtful words thrown at you rather than the reassuring or comforting ones. Sad.


    Nobody was doing that. Some people were just saying both Ron and Harry should be accountable for that fight instead of it just being one person’s fault.
    During the fight Ron was wearing the locket which Harry showed little sympathy for as usual so your point about the locket not affecting the others is moot as they were not wearing it at that time. The fight happened at that time because the locket was also playing on his fears of losing his family members which the others didn’t have you know (the Weasleys don’t need another kid injured remember?).


    He didn’t bail because they were in danger or whatever other delusion crap people came up with. He bailed because Harry lead them on a camping trip of hell that was a complete waste of time (and would remain so if nobody intervened) and they had a fight where both said some very hurtful things to each other and in the heat of moment Ron made a mistake and he regretted it right away.
    Why can’t you see it this way out of interest? Ron was the most heroic of them because he was the only one who could have lived in Voldemort’s regime without being hunted down so he was the only one who DID NOT HAVE TO fight but he chose to.

    By the way if you are annoyed at Ron, how do you feel about Harry abandoning his friends and obsessing over the Deathly Hallows for three months when his friends needed his leadership? He didn’t have the locket on him or anything like that did he?


    Well you could also ask why couldn’t JKR have Ron coming back right away and not ran into the Snatchers? I am guessing it’s because she wanted to create angst among the Trio for an extended period of time and have someone feed the team what was happening in the outside world among other reasons. It has to be Ron because he is really the only person who could leave and not be hunted down right away in that context.


    Interesting because I don’t consider this to be his worst moment in the series which IMO belongs in HBP when he started to treat Hermione horribly for kissing Krum and not bothering to give her a chance to explain herself. He has far more reasons and justifications to show a temporary moment of weakness that he regretted immediately here than in HBP. Glad we agree on the asshole point though.
    A big problem is that lots of Ron haters are real hypocrites in that they exaggerate every little thing he did whilst ignoring the horrid actions from their own favourite characters (not that I am referring to you but more some of the other posters on this thread). That’s one of the main motivations for people defending Ron.

    [FONT=&quot]Did Rhaeger say that Ron did almost the right thing? I must have missed that. I hope I tried to answer your questions now though.
    [/FONT]
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
  2. Hush

    Hush Slug Club Member

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    Please, will you just stop. I don't think what I wrote merited such an arduous response. This is what I was talking about. These tirades where you seek to get the final word in by repeating yourself, again and again. You're projecting your interactions with the people who got themselves banhammered onto me. Half the time you don't address the real contention I'm making. This makes you come across as rather belligerent, for example how many of your 50+ posts have been dedicated to this thread?

    I get that you're totes into Ron. I think everyone following has noticed, but chill out a bit, yeah?
     
  3. NuitTombee

    NuitTombee Dark Lord

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  4. torrent56

    torrent56 Second Year

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    OK so when I responded to your post and assertions using canon evidence and supported another poster that comes across as belligerent? I thought this is a discussion thread where people are allowed to passionately put forward their point?

    Actually the problem here is that you seem to think Harry is completely blame free for what happened and you sometime showed misunderstanding about the book such as the misconception the Weasleys are going to be targeted regardless of what Ron did. If you had just said both of them are to blame, then I wouldn't have said anything.

    I never lumped you with those other people who got banned so will you please not strawman what I said? I responded when I thought you were wrong and agreed otherwise.

    If you don't want people who disagree with you to respond to you then don't post here. Simple.

    What the hell does my other posts have to do with anything here? If you're not going to respond to what I actually said that Ron wasn't the only one wrong in that scene, there's nothing for us to say anymore. Thanks for being polite and not mindlessly hating Ron though.

    On another note I agree this thread should be closed soon as the posts are getting repetitive.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  5. Hush

    Hush Slug Club Member

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    When I compare the counterpoints you make to what I said, there's a disparity. It doesn't match up. You continually misinterpret what I'm saying or focus on a single word like "bailed." You are only arguing on a superficial level. Which is frustrating.

    When you feel the need to bring up what Ron haters are saying when explaining yourself this means you are projecting. Otherwise it should be irrelevant. But instead when I stated that you were projecting, you decided that I meant you were lumping me in with the others... again, another misinterpretation. And the vicious cycle continues like that goddamn song.

    I you can't see the link between being belligerent and the majority of repetitious posts you make are waging war against Ron haters in this thread then there is no point discussing anything, at all.
     
  6. The Pro

    The Pro Seventh Year

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    Fixed that for you.
     
  7. torrent56

    torrent56 Second Year

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    I am sorry if I misunderstood you. I can only judge your posts based on what you wrote so would you please show me where I got it wrong please?

    No I am not projecting at all when I was commenting on Ron haters and their behaviour. I was simply commenting on what I saw. I never lumped you in with anyone so could you stop using a baseless strawman which doesn’t get us anywhere?


    I guess arguing against something repeatedly means belligerent and waging war then? In that case you surely are waging war and making things worse by throwing flames over that situation considering that you didn't even try to see Ron's point of view in that scene. Have you seen the ad hominem attacks made by Ron haters against the Ron defenders then on this thread? Pointing out why you are wrong (like when you claim Ron defenders think he’s perfect or something like that, nobody is doing that) doesn't qualify as belligerent in the sense I understood and you were doing pretty much the same thing to Rhaeger. The posts I made was not repetitive because they were specifically addressed to everyone I was responding to so don’t distort what I said. Any repetitions is mainly because some people just post the same cliched arguments again and again.

    EDIT: Sigh, I was unfortunately right again. I guess really any valid criticisms of Harry is bashing and pathetic according to some trolls which is clear when they showed they have no clue how much danger Ron's family is in just because Ron was with Harry and Harry actually didn't encourage Ron to take off the locket.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
  8. HarrySnape

    HarrySnape Looked into the void

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    The Harry bashing by Ron lovers to defend Ron is pathetic. Harry may not have helped matters but Ron is the worst of the three, with or without the Locket.

    And what would he have done for his family but hunt Horcruxes with Harry? For all his bluster about wanting to protect family, he leaves his best chance to do that behind. he can't even face his family after he abandons Harry, because they would have been disgusted with him, whether they'd known about the Locket or not. He goes and hides in Bill's Cottage because he knows how utterly fail he was.

    Harry's plan was really no worse than Dumbledore's considering how much information he had and the fact that he was using the plan Dumbledore told him too. There's also the fact that Ron knew what he was signing up for when he left. He knew how hard it would be to find and destroy them.

    In the scene where he leaves, his friends even tell him he should take the Locket off and reconsider, and he rejects this. I get that the Locket is bad juju, but Ron was being a bad friend even without wearing it. Putting it on just made it easier to act on the thoughts he was already having. That abandoning Harry was ever even an option in his mind for the Locket to exacerbate is already bad enough. A true friend in that situation (having promised to aid someone to the death) would have grumbled and kept going, like Hermione, not given up and had a hissy fit because it was hard.
     
  9. Lexx

    Lexx Squib

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    I think Ron has many faults, and for me, they stand out more than his good traits. He's easily jealous, insecure, lazy, and he abandons Harry (and Hermione) on more than one occasion. Of course, he's not a completely horrible character and has served a purpose before, but I'd have to say that he seems like the type to be an asshole and not know they're an asshole.
     
  10. Burt

    Burt Fourth Year

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    I think there's a lot of room to interpret Ron's actions and motivations. That's sort of the fun thing about Ron for the fanon -- he could be one of the best guys in the book or one of the worst, depending on point of view.

    I should say, though, that compared to most of the teenage boys I knew when I was that age, Ron is relatively mild-mannered. He never gets into fights. Although he gets cross and isn't quick to apologize, he rarely yells or escalates conflicts. When you consider that his best friends are an impossible child-hero and the best witch of the year, his envy seems pretty mild. Most boys in that situation would be perfectly frothy, and would say hurtful shit to alienate themselves. I think it's worth remembering also that Ron is the greatest optimist out of the Trio. He's always the first to say that something is wicked or brilliant.

    I don't consider myself a great fan of Ron but I think he's probably the most well-developed and natural character in the entire series.
     
  11. LightLordPotter

    LightLordPotter Disappeared

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    The only argument for Ron being generally annoying is "Yeah, well he's been through stuff too! Maybe not as bad as Harry...or anyone else for that matter, Neville somehow manages to be kind despite the whole parent thing too now that I think about it...uh, HE'S ONLY HUMAN." It's amazing how only Harry and Hermione should be the ones to have maturity. Yes, they're all human, it doesn't make him any less objectively wrong for walking out on
    them while they were attempting to save the whole entire wizarding world.
     
  12. ElMarquis

    ElMarquis First Year

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    I was reading an interesting book called 'One Hundred Days' by Admiral (4*) Sandy Woodward, CinC TF 317.8, the naval task force in the Falklands Conflict, which led me to this recent article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40131987

    It's worth a read, but I'll sum it up. 18 & 19 year old kids go out feeling like they're immortal, and are going to have a quick stomp on the Argies and back home for tea and medals. The reality was very different and utterly horrific. Nonetheless, they saw combat, saw the horrific side of war, and they persevered.

    Ron Weasley deserted when he was tired and hungry. Not having witnessed comrades blown apart, or participated in combat since the 1st Battle of Hogwarts (Death of Dumbledore). He fought in two skirmishes, the 1st BoH and the DoM, fighting for his life (who thought it would be a fcuking good idea to poke an animated brain?!11?!?1?1?). He knows by now that this is a war, but he gets tired and hungry, and runs back to the Burrow to hide like a rat.

    I don't hate Ron, I just think he may have been in Gryffindor as he was too fecking lazy to fulfil the ambitions that might have got him into Slytherin, not loyal enough to be a Hufflepuff, and about as intelligent as whoever said the Third Reich would last a thousand years.
     
  13. Rhaegar I

    Rhaegar I Order Member

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    First of all, how many of the posts on these threads are just people rehashing the tired old complaints about Ron and people like me rehashing the tired old rebuttals about how, at the end of the day, Ron is an ordinary teenager whose biggest problem is being surrounded by ubermensch.

    In this case, Ron leaving in DH has absolutely nothing to do with being hungry. Sure, he complained about it (show me a teenager whose always known a good meal from either his family or school, is suddenly placed in a situation where, among other things, he doesn't have much food and all of it is crap, but doesn't complain about it, and I'll show an ubermensch Harry and Hermione should have been friends with instead), but that is only one factor.

    For example, how about how he was constantly worried about his own family? Harry had no family left he cared about, and Hermione sent hers to Australia, so they don't really have to worry about such things. But Ron? One of his brothers already lost an ear and almost died from it. Ron has one brother who works right in the Ministry, one father who works right in the Ministry and was already being monitored by said Ministry, and one sister who was not only right in Hogwarts but was leading a student rebellion that could get her severely punished. In fact, he only just found out about the latter shortly after he left. But surely that has nothing to do with his decision, right?

    Or how about how they were wondering around Britain with absolutely no plan whatsoever? They didn't know where to find the other Horcruxes, they didn't know how to destroy the one Horcrux they already had, and they didn't even know where to find other people they could be hiding out with and do something with them. That kind of thing can be extremely terrible for anyone's morale. And to make this matter worse, Harry was kind of a bad leader. He had them wear the Locket all the time (more on that later), escalated the fight with Ron to the point where Harry was the one who told him to leave, and later on will obsess over the Hallows instead of actually doing something productive.

    And, of course, let's not forget Teenage Hormones. Yes, it's a stupid thing, but that's the point. Teenage Hormones made every teenager that ever teenager-d to do stupid things. In this case, it made Ron jealous of Harry and Hermione. And if you can't relate to something like that, you never had a crush on that one person, never mind had that one best friend maybe doing something with her.

    And during all of this, making everything above worse, Ron is wearing the Horcrux. He has poison being whispered into his ear about his worst fears are very real. It got inside his head to the point where it was able to seriously mess with him when Harry opened the Locket. And don't forget, he was wearing the damned thing during that fight before he left.

    Oh, and what was Ron's first reaction when he did leave? He regretted it, and wanted to go back immediately. That is the kind of thing most people don't have the guts to do: get in a huge fight, leave your friends in a huff, and then immediately regret your decision and try to go back and apologize. In fact, the only reason he didn't was because of those Snatchers delaying him too long. And when the Put-Outer Ex Machina gave him a way to go back to them, he seized the chance and proceeded to save Harry's life, destroy the Locket and his inner demons, and accept all the things Hermione said to him because he knew he deserved it and worse.

    I mean no disrespect to those teenagers that fought in the Falklands (or anyone whose ever fought in any war, ever). They were, truthfully, braver than I am. And I know they were real people while Ron is a fictional character in a fantasy book series kind of for kids. But Ron went through a ton of shit just as bad in its own way as their shit. He was stuck in a terrible situation you're just simply reduced to not getting good food. It's kind of insulting actually.

    Also, I love how you're forgetting the Battle of the Seven Harrys. You know, when he disguised himself as Harry Potter, put himself very much in harm's way, fought well in his own right, and had to deal with his brother losing an ear and nearly dying, along with Mad Eye Moody himself actually dying from it.

    And I think he very much is better at those Houses than you think. He's nowhere near as lazy or stupid as everyone makes him out to be (how else would he get through the rigorous shit required to be an Auror?). And damn right he's loyal: in seven years of friendship, he only left Harry twice, and both of them for fairly good reasons, Harry himself escalated the fight, and Ron was the one who apologized for being a dickhead. And in the real world, friendships do the exact same thing and worse all the time.

    And you want bravery? How about when he was willing to 'sacrifice' himself in the Wizards Chess game in PS, and keeping his cool when that plant was strangling him while Hermione was panicking about how to make fire? Or COS, when he willingly walked into his very worst fear that is giant man-eating spiders for the sole purpose of helping his friends. Or POA, when he stood between Harry and Sirius despite having a broken leg? And so on and so on.

    And he did all that when he was, at oldest, 14!

    God damn it, I really need to just put this all together into an outright essay. So that way, instead of constantly writing repetitive things the person will never read, I can write just the one good thing the person will never read.
     
  14. Hush

    Hush Slug Club Member

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    Wasn't the reason that Ron was being strangled was because he was panicking? Lol. And I mean you say and so on and so on, but I think those are Ron's best moments. Period. I think that's the problem. JKR then delegated a lot of shallow and petty aspects primarily into Ron's character and with no exceptional and outstanding moments for the next three books people start forgetting all the great things that Ron's done. This is usually exacerbated by Emma Watson being a babe and fan wish fulfilment, on both the male and female spectrum. Guys Harry projecting and girls Hermione projecting.

    That being said I think Harry shows his best moments in the first four books too. I think we were all expecting a level of epicness in the concluding books that was more subtextual rather than what we were explicitly looking for. Just reading some of Taure's posts makes that abundantly clear, at least for me. He's one clever mofo. He always leaves me shaking my head wondering how I missed those subtleties that connect everything together.

    All that being said I still feel like you take too much accountability away from Ron's actions. The Harry leader argument and family arguments are a little flat for me personally. Same with the locket and teenager hormones as they're all experiencing these things. But whatever.

    On a side note, this has been a great litmus test for ban hammering n00bs, if a little (terribly) repetitive. I do, however, think you've invested too much of your time in entertaining trolls Rhaegar I.
     
  15. ElMarquis

    ElMarquis First Year

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    I freely admit I'd forgotten the Battle of the Seven Potters, but we can't forget that in that case there was a certain level of pressure applied. Fleur, forgive me for being sexist, a woman, was willingly putting herself in the line of fire, Bill, the Twins and more had agreed to do the same.

    It was a completely idiotic plan but here's not the place to bicker about it.

    As for the Locket, I would personally have sealed it in an iron chest, as iron has supposedly mystical properties when dealing with the arcane, possibly sealed it in wax or tallow, then in a lead box. Somehow the insidious nature of the Locket does frighten me rather more than any of the other Horcruxes. Harry's leadership is something to discuss on another thread I saw this morning about whether he was any use or as spineless as many think. I agree it was poor, he could have at least admitted in the beginning that Dumbledore had left him little to go on.

    I still see Ron as rather fickle, I've seen 'hard times', cold and hunger. I gritted my teeth and got on with life. You point out his sacrifice in PS, and his involvment with the CoS. I should have thought by this point, or at least by the World Cup, that the Wizarding World was a flashpoint of conflicting loyalties, ambitions, beliefs, prejudices and as such was in an ever-descending spiral into bloodshed. War was inevitable, and having fought in the DoM, the 1st Battle of Hogwarts and the Skirmish of the Seven Potters, he should have realised that life was not going to be an easy cruise.

    All three of them failed mightily in canon, some simple things could have made life far easier. Around the country there are thousands of pubs, many of which rent out small rooms, and with a little NOT using magic and drawing attention, would provide a method of concealing their camping trip, plus would have offered hot food.

    Ron shouldn't have worried too much about his family. The Weasley family were affirmed Blood Traitors, feuded with the Malfoys and had FOUGHT against the Death Eaters in the First Blood War. They were condemned already, and his well-known friendship with Harry, and general closeness of the Weasley family condemned them.

    ElMarquis.
     
  16. kira and light

    kira and light Sixth Year

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    Really have to agree with this especially that you almost take all accountabilty away from Ron, the Harry leader argument and half of torrent56 points like Ron not being prepared for how hard the Horcrux hunt would be in reality to excuse his actions are really weak.

    Is it really that hard to accept that people can be assholes sometimes and still be alright.

    It really feels like your projecting yourself on Ron, you seem really upset when ever some noob is painting Ron as a Death Eater in training.

    I understand trying to reason with people if you see that they can be argued with but your text walls in his defense to people who don't care are ridiculous.

    He is just a fictional character no need to get so upset on his behalf.
     
  17. ElMarquis

    ElMarquis First Year

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    I think that Book 7 would have gone rather better if some basic logic had been followed while planning the camping trip.
    Surviving - Food, water, sleep and cover from the elements.
    Not Being Killed - Avoiding detection.
    Only after these have been fulfilled should they have turned onto Horcruxes and Hallows. If you have an undetectable expansion charm, couldn't you have a never-ending canteen of water? Food might not be conjurable, but any wizard can nick some, or even buy it muggle-style.

    All three of them were bloody stupid. As a former RAF Flight Sergeant used to bellow in my ear. "USE YOUR MIND FOR SOMETHING OTHER THAN SCRAPING THE INSIDE OF YOUR SKULL!".

    It doesn't take much logic to take the steps I have described. Food, water, shelter, avoiding being caught, always have a backup plan as all plans go to shit. Always have a method available to dispose of a body as well.

    Ron, Hermione and Harry are all guilty of terrible levels of stupidity, naivety and unpreparedness.

    ElMarquis.
     
  18. Mal'sSerenity

    Mal'sSerenity First Year

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    Can we please just close this thread already? This same exact argument has been repeated more times than I can be bothered to count on more websites than I care to remember. Every possible argument for both sides of this must have been stated at least a hundred time throughout the internet. Why oh why is it still happening?
     
  19. Rhaegar I

    Rhaegar I Order Member

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    I know I'm one half of said repeated argument, but I totally agree with this. It's getting much too annoying and repetitive.
     
  20. BTT

    BTT Headmaster

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    You can just ignore this thread if you hate it that much. It's literally a forum feature.