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James and Lily

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Ragon, Jul 6, 2007.

?

Who is stronger

  1. Snape> James in Hogwarts

    10 vote(s)
    28.6%
  2. Snape>Sirius in Hogwarts

    6 vote(s)
    17.1%
  3. Snape<Sirius in Hogwarts

    15 vote(s)
    42.9%
  4. Snape<James in Hogwarts

    23 vote(s)
    65.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Ragon

    Ragon Dark Lord

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    I thought I would see what other people thought on this.

    In book 3 Remus says that James and Sirius are the best and brightest students in Hogwarts. In book 5 James and Sirius are obviously far more advanced than Harry or anyone in the DA.

    Im wanting to say that in one of the books Lily is said to be the smartest witch if her generation.

    My idea of James and Sirius is that they are probably the strongest and most talented wizards of their generation. Lily and(I know some of you wont like this but) Snape would probably be in their behind them and Remus behind them somewhere. James whips the floor with Snape more or less and Snape is obviously not a pushover or everyone else in Hogwarts would whip the floor with him.
    In book 3 Fudge says that Hagrid would be torn apart by Sirius, that only fully trained Hit Wizards would stand a chance. So basicly he would have to be far above average or extremely well trained in addition to being atleast having a decent amount of talent and power.
    Lily is probably one of the few that James and Sirius didnt mess with because she could hang with them in the talent department and is her generation's version of Hermoine in terms of spell knowledge.
    Snape INVENTS spells while in Hogwarts so he obviously has some talent.

    What is your opinion on this subject if you wouldnt my saying it
     
  2. Nuhuh

    Nuhuh Dastardly Shadow Admin Moderator

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    To add one thing, after the Department of Mysteries fight, there was a line that said that Remus was the only one besides Dumbledore to come through uninjured. So he too is quite powerful.

    And yes, I have always see James Potter and Sirius Black as exceptionally powerful wizards.

    I don't think anyone here would dislike the notion of Snape being strong. I hate him for what he stands for, that he is allowed to be a bitch because he was bullied, and a constant forgiveness of his actions from all the adults.

    But power wise I never understood the disparity between James Potter, Sirius Black, Remus Lupin, Snape and Lily Evans being so powerful when they were in school and Harry and his side kicks not so much. Sure Harry has achieved quite a few things that were amazing but no one says that he is the most brilliant student of his generation, or even the most powerful, though the latter may be one of those foregone conclusions.

    Basically put Harry in marauders time and I think Sirius would kick his ass with all his exposure to dark arts growing up.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2007
  3. Big D on a Diet

    Big D on a Diet Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

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    I think that Harry's weakness has more to do with JKR than Harry himself as a character. I think that she gets a little self-conscious about making him too powerful or smart, so he sometimes comes off looking dumb and weak. She's not as shy about giving high attributes to characters who's magical training she hasn't described in detail.

    It goes back to my theory of "fewer background details" writing. When you give fewer background details, then it leaves you free to give your characters as many skills and powers as you need to, just by saying that he/she spent such-and-such time learning it and leave it at that.

    Big D
     
  4. Lorelei of the Sea

    Lorelei of the Sea Unspeakable

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    I think that a lot of Sirius and James' accomplishments with magic had to do with growing up in a magical environment. Like nuhuh said, Sirius probably picked up a lot of Dark Arts growing up, especially if you think about the Black Library. And though I don't think it was ever outright said, the Potters are alluded to be a powerful family.

    Snape, I think, was really just overcompensating. He was a half-blood, but was raised to believe Muggles inferior. Thus, he tried to learn all the 'dark' sort of magics. I think that another driving force for Snape was the fact that he was not accepted by either sides of the conflict: a Slytherin half-blood who was not nearly charismatic enough for people to get past that.

    Lupin is talented because of something similar. As a werewolf, he was discriminated against. He wanted to prove that his lycanthropy had no bearing on his humanity, and thus aspired to succeed. However, unlike Snape, his personality was pleasant enough for his peers to befriend him.

    Lily, I think, is somewhat of an Hermione!Sue. The rationalization for both of their successes is a "thirst for knowledge" and a drive to overcome their respective stereotype.

    The reason that Harry is not as powerful, in canon, is because he's lazy. James and Sirius were lazy as well, but they had their magical childhood that made magic, for them, not a scholarly pursuit. Harry is also used to underachieving because of the Dursleys, and has his Voldemort mysteries to take up his time.

    Ron doesn't need a reason to fail. He's lazy, unintelligent, and is used to treating anything that requires effort with disdain.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2007
  5. Erotic Adventures of S

    Erotic Adventures of S Denarii Host

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    I think that is mostly fanon not canon.
     
  6. Lorelei of the Sea

    Lorelei of the Sea Unspeakable

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    You're probably right. I looked through OotP, and the only book mentioned in relation to the Blacks is that pureblood ideology one.
     
  7. Ascania

    Ascania Second Year

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    To me it looks like a large disparity in creativity between the generations. The marauders fueled off each other, channeled ideas of what to do with the spells they knew and imagined new uses for old spells.
    Harry on the other hand just goes by what he learns in class and there has to be enormous pressure on him before he comes up with something on his own. And even then he's not very imaginative.
    Then, he's surrounded by one of the most uncreative witches around - Hermione, who expects to find the solution to every problem already laid out for her. She just has to find the right book it's written down in. And Ron, a slacker who doesn't put his mind to anything that doesn't involve food, quidditch or chess.
     
  8. Kate

    Kate Elite Member DLP Supporter

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    In other words: Ditch your friends, Harry, and it will help you on the way to greatness.
     
  9. Ragon

    Ragon Dark Lord

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    How did this get on Harry?

    But now that you have got me started.
    James and Sirius had their families, and were pranksters which meant that they were always messing with spells. Also they basicly had a war with Snape and had to watch out for Lily if they got caught.

    Harry on the other hand had no family, is not a prankster, and still has to much of a bright eyed HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? mindset. He doesnt see the reason to experiment. And maybe he still thinks he is no better or smarter than anyone else. Ron has rubbed off on him in a awful way; He is lazy as shit and dumb as shit to boot. The only bright part is that He still manages to believe that the answer to every problem is not found in a book.

    However Harry has shown brillance at times(He is talented at defense if not at James and Sirius level). He is powerful obviously, as shown inlittle thing with the dementors, and managing to cast Crucio(even if it didnt work and it is unknown if the spells are really that difficult to cast). BUT his friends have managed to ruin his drive. Why learn when you have the walking Hogwarts Library with you and why learn when you could play chess, go fly, eat, take a nap, or tons of other things?
     
  10. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    I would put Snape way ahead of James and Sirius. By the end of HBP, I'd say he's the second most powerful wizard there is, just short of Voldemort.

    Sirius was offed by Bellatrix, and Snape is stronger than Bellatrix, so we can see that Snape is stronger than Sirius.

    James is said to be about equal to Sirius, so again, Snape is stronger.

    And this isn't even taking into account the Mind Arts. As we saw from the end of HBP, Snape will be able to utterly dominate anyone who isn't an occlumens in a duel.


    Edit: Concerning this:

    He only said that because at the time he though Sirius was a powerful Dark wizard in possesion of secrets of magic taught to him by Lord Voldemort, and able to use powerful magic to escape Azkaban. It turns out he was just an animagus.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2007
  11. Marie M

    Marie M Raptured to Hell

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    I think that that the education was better during Lilys and Jamess time.

    I mean from that time the only characters we know are Lily, James, Remus, Peter, Sirius and Snape.

    Dranco described them as most powerful of their time, but I don't think that's right.

    I think that Lily, James, Remus, Sirius and Snape were good students, but not most powerful, they were just good and they were better than the most powerful students of Harrys time.
     
  12. Ragon

    Ragon Dark Lord

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    James is dead Taure. Sirius was in Azkaban for 12 years. Bellatrix only beat Sirius because Sirius got cocky. Snape had access to a wand for 12 years longer than Sirius and 14 longer than Bella. And James is probably not equal to James more likely slightly stronger.

    Of the 3 Snape is obviously the strongest at this point in canon. Who can say what it would be like if James and Sirius had been able to practice and grow stronger. I personally think Snape wouldnt know what hit him if James or Sirius had been able to train and learn over the last 16 years.
     
  13. Lorelei of the Sea

    Lorelei of the Sea Unspeakable

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    I don't think it means that Bellatrix is stronger than Sirius- I think it means that Sirius is considerably more arrogant than her, and very confident in his ability. Also, I have only read HBP once- where did it say that Snape was stronger than Bellatrix?

    Agreed. It is, however, canon that Lily and James were some of the best of their time. See Hagrid's speech in the first book.
     
  14. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Most people don't continue to learn after they've left Hogwarts, I doubt those 16 years outside Hogwarts would have changed anything. The only way that James and Sirius would be able to take on Snape would be by teaming up on him.

    This was brought about through deductive reasoning. Harry is able to duel effectively against Bellatrix, and even lands a (failed) Cruciatus on her. Against Snape, he is unable to cast even a single spell. Therefore, Snape > Bellatrix. Snape is also held in higher regard by Voldemort than Bellatrix, is not crazy and therefore is capable of rational thought, and is confidant in Bellatrix's presence.
     
  15. Ragon

    Ragon Dark Lord

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    I highly doubt that James and Sirius would not have learned something. Snape learned after Hogwarts otherwise he would have kicked their asses in Hogwarts. James and Sirius are immature at times but they are not stupid or retarded. With a war going on they had to learn something or they wouldnt have survived. James bested Voldemort 3 times.

    Hogwarts merely prepares wizards and witches for life sorta like High School. The aurors or other jobs were they use magic alot obviously has to have some training. Snape did something after hogwarts he is a potions master. Lily was a charms mistress. They must do something after Hogwarts or everyone would be Mistress or Masters of whatever they want
     
  16. Nuhuh

    Nuhuh Dastardly Shadow Admin Moderator

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    Agreed with Dranco.

    You can only compare James, Sirius and Snape in their school time. In that time it was James and Sirius who were said to be the most brilliant students, not Snape or Lily. Though Snape was without a doubt powerful, 'knowing more dark curses than seventh years,' and modifying potions, creating spells etc.

    Fast forward, Voldemort kills off James and Lily, you can't compare their 21 year old versions with Snape who's had over 15 years of experience more than them at this stage.

    Sirius vs Snape vs Bellatrix: Yes it was quite obvious that Sirius was having a wild time and got himself killed. To be honest someone who can insult his opponent, when said opponent actually has been trained by Voldemort, by her own gloating that is bloody impressive. Sirius also essentially is a 21 year old wizard plus 2 that he has been out of prison. I can't imagine that being in Azkaban does much for your magical growth, all fanon super azkaban angel sitting in a jail cell plot devices aside. So again, agreed with Dranco, give Sirius the same free time as Snape and he would be more powerful.

    James and Lily also defied the Dark Lord thrice and survived it. Now unless they managed to do it in the half ass way Harry did they were probably quite a powerful duo. Although I think the 4th year confrontation was a clear win for Harry.
     
  17. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Correction: He would have kicked their asses if it wasn't 4 on 1.

    Can I shout "fanon" loud enough?

    Anything Hagrid says is not to be trusted.

    I put James and Sirius on the same level as Hermione. Get top marks in all classes, and are genius' at magic, but they do nothing extraordinary. I put Lily a little bit above this for her ability to adjust Potions, showing a strong natural affinity for magic. I put Snape a little bit above Lily for his abilities in the Mind Arts and spell creation. I put Voldemort a bit above Snape for his knowledge of the Dark Arts, his immortality, and his unaturally strong affinity with magic, shown by his controlled accidental magic at a young age.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2007
  18. Ragon

    Ragon Dark Lord

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    Snape as a Potions Master is canon I do believe.

    And last time I read OotP James more or less beat the shit outa Snape.
    Snape has more training OBVIOUSLY. Both are dead one for 16 years and the other was in Azkaban for 12 years and died 2 years later.
     
  19. Palver

    Palver High Inquisitor

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    Not to mention Snape as a teacher had a access to Hogwarts Library.
     
  20. Nuhuh

    Nuhuh Dastardly Shadow Admin Moderator

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    Only one scene we see Snape being picked on, is James Potter vs Snape. Sirius egging him on, Pettigrew laughing and Remus pretending nothing is happening. So no, it wasn't 4 on 1.

    Yet he was acute enough to realize Voldemort was not really dead and gone. Was trustworthy enough to be envoy to the giants, pick up the savior of the magical world and the philosopher's stone. You have something against half-giants.

    Animagus transformation, marauder's map, not extraordinary enough?
     
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