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JoaT^2 15er - A Mafia Game

Discussion in 'Little Italy' started by Eidolonic, Jul 7, 2020.

  1. Cobalt

    Cobalt Third Year

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    Whatever, Dels.
     
  2. Cobalt

    Cobalt Third Year

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    I'm out of energy, I'm putting my faith and my trust in Fonti to come to the right conclusions.

    If you want to vote me, Font, I get it. It'll suck because we will lose, but I understand getting outplayed by Dels.

    Just know that I trusted you for a reason. I hope you can trust me in return.
     
  3. Dels

    Dels Muggle

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    Same. Do your thing Fonti, let me know if you need anything else.
     
  4. fontisian

    fontisian Slug Club Member

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    Cool. I'm just going to go scream into the abyss.
     
  5. fontisian

    fontisian Slug Club Member

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    Zack's case on Dels in the other game.
     
  6. fontisian

    fontisian Slug Club Member

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    Ok.
     
  7. fontisian

    fontisian Slug Club Member

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    @Dels

    I'm back to thinking I'm probably going to vote for you.
     
  8. fontisian

    fontisian Slug Club Member

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    This is probably terrible timing, because you're going to sleep soon, sorry.
     
  9. Dels

    Dels Muggle

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    It doesn't bother me. Ask me if you need anything.
     
  10. Cobalt

    Cobalt Third Year

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    Lmk if there's anything else you need from me either.
     
  11. fontisian

    fontisian Slug Club Member

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    I don't know? Anything you think you can do would help?

    Like, I'm looking of Zach's case against you there and it feels like an accurate description of what you've done this game. Basically "But he hasn't voiced much in the way of strong opinions or takes that I saw - even when defending Para, he repeatedly hedged it with "but he could be a wolf, I suppose" or something to that effect. He subtly encourages and latches on to other people's ideas, but doesn't have much in the way of his own." You strongest takes this game have been defending Amy and Cobalt, and you did it with the same appeal to meta type thing you did in that game. And I guess, I expected town!you to reach a point where you could defend Waco or Rubicon or Von. Like, to make a take against the consensus with a townread that wasn't just a wrong one.

    On the other, Cobalt has felt hella manipulative Today, and I can't shake the feeling that he changed his read on me because he saw that I was wavering on him.

    So, I don't know.

    You have my permission to case each other if you want to do that.
     
  12. fontisian

    fontisian Slug Club Member

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    There's a lot of stuff during Day 4 where Amy was trying to work with Dels, and it feels like that doesn't happen with a partner, but it happened after Amy claimed and when she knew she was screwed, so I can see her deciding to try to distance Dels as her way to win.
     
  13. fontisian

    fontisian Slug Club Member

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    And yes, Cobalt has had terrible reads, and he didn't reassess, but that laziness and the way he tried to shove through yeets on town can all come from town!him.

    Like, the thing that most makes me want to vote him is that there have points Today where he's just felt fake, like something in my gut is recoiling at what he's saying.
     
  14. Cobalt

    Cobalt Third Year

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    I'm sorry if I've felt manipulative, not at all my intention, I'm definitely leaning a little heavily on the AtE but that's because I feel like I went out on a limb for you and I'll be upset to a degree if it doesn't pay off for our team.
     
  15. Cobalt

    Cobalt Third Year

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    All that I can say at this point is that Dels flipped from you to me because of opportunism. That's the biggest takeaway from today. It was easier to convince you on me than to convince me to back off from trusting you when I already made it a public decision.
     
  16. Dels

    Dels Muggle

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    Um. Well this is part of why I don't like meta, because I don't know how to respond to a case from a past game.

    A lot of those things feel accurate to my town game, even if I'm sure they were true there as scum. Like, if you ever catch me making a real push on someone that isn't primarily based on sheeping and "idk I just have a PoE", that's a sign you should yeet me because as town I'm a sheep but as scum I suddenly am much more willing to go after people and find reasons for them to be scummy. Because "idk, I townread everyone, just PoE" doesn't work very well as a wolf strategy.

    Like I said earlier, defending wolves is... wolfy. You don't need meta from a past game to be like "aha, as wolf he defends wolves". Like. The reason defending wolves makes you look bad is because wolves defending wolves is pretty universal >_> Outside of people who bus a lot. So I can't really... argue against that. In that game specifically? I was with Para and when we are villagers we townread each other vehemently because we know each other. And if I defended Amy there, it's probably because it was day 1 and I didn't want a wolf going down day 1. Is that the same as defending Amy here? Eh. Not really? She wasn't going down day 1 anyway and afterwards, I dunno, it's just not the same situation.

    You're also looking at just one game there. Like. I could also show you my most recent town game where I also defended all the wolves and was accused of being a wolf because I had no unique reads, only bandwagoning off others and being like "yeah that seems right". I deflected off the wolf day 1 by saying "yeah they're posting bad but they're probably just town because a wolf wouldn't be that bad" which is almost exactly what I did with Amy in that wolfgame. Gemma did reference this yesterday, she was wrong about why I defended the wolves there but I'm assuming just from reading her post you can know I'm not lying here.

    But I don't want to show you that game, I don't want to be using meta at all. If you're going to vote me, I'd like you to base it on this game, because being voted based on a past wolf game would feel silly.

    Also I've noticed you keep saying that me defending Cobalt is a wolfy thing, but, uh. Remember, if he's a wolf, I'm town, that's... not a partner-y thing? I know you know that but the way you word it feels like me townreading Cobalt is a hit against me because he's a wolf, but that... can't be.

    And as for " I expected town!you to reach a point where you could defend Waco or Rubicon or Von." I dunno. I mean. Those are all people that I townread at various points, until I didn't, which was... the same time you stopped townreading them as well.
     
  17. Dels

    Dels Muggle

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    Sure, I'll talk about Cobalt.

    The biggest thing is what I already said when I responded to him above.

    He keeps saying it too. "I'm town because I started doubting my read when I didn't need to"

    But I said why that's not true. He's arguing that I was so locked in on you that all he needed to do was continuing to wolfread you and I'd inevitably vote there.

    He's saying that I changed my stance because I saw him doubting, as if he didn't change his stance when he saw me doubting!

    Yeah, I was leaning towards you, but it was clear when I was talking to you that I was feeling doubts (I literally said I was), and also, like I said, you are very convincing, and he'd know there's a chance I turn on him. The reason for that being, he had seen me say "If I townread Fonti, it'll be because the interactions with Cuth/Amy will ultimately prove she is likely unaligned with them, those are her strongest points" I said that before he even entered the thread. And then, after I went to sleep, when he talked to you, it was after you posted your big day 2 wall where you specifically showed all of those interactions.

    He had every reason to think I might change my mind, and even beyond that, ugh I already said this earlier, he would totally want to show himself considering things! He's basically saying that as town he'd have no reason to say "Okay Fonti, I'm listening to you, I'm considering that it may be Dels" but that's just not true. The wolf has to look like they're considering every possibility. You said that. I said that. He would feel like he has to. Because if he doesn't, when I'm already having doubts, I could easily think at any time "Man, Cobalt really doesn't seem to be evaluating like Fonti and I are, what if he's the wolf just waiting for me to vote Fonti (like I said I'd be the first voter in the afternoon) and pounce"

    Like, this ties in to how he was like "I know Fonti's town because she's still asking questions even as we've said we're voting each other". Like, this is such a simplistic world view, where the wolf just lies in wait to pounce. No! The wolf has to always look like they're considering everything like a townie, up until the last moment, otherwise people notice. I'm sure Cobalt knows this, his trusting you just for that there was a fake thought, but he also would've known it last night, that as the wolf he can't just look like he's waiting for me to vote Fonti, that he has to look like he's considering everything.

    Perhaps that's part of what you felt was manipulative, I mean, beyond all the massive screaming AtE.
     
  18. Dels

    Dels Muggle

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    I will also say that if I was a wolf who was flipping opportunistically I think I'd probably find a better way to do it than to come in in the morning yelling at you for all your posts about me and saying why I thought you were wolfy for them, then 2 hours later being like "Okay I'm voting Cobalt"

    But I don't really know because obviously I wasn't thinking of it in those terms. I'd imagine that pissing you off by calling you wolfy would be a bad thing to do if I knew I was going to ask you to side with me. But this is wifom. That's the issue with all this stuff, it's such wifom, because as I said, the point of these reads is you use them when scum doesn't know you're gonna use them. After large discussions about "what would the wolf do" "what's their plan to win" "would they change their reads here knowing they look wolfy for it", you have to throw that all out the window, including Cobalt saying "well as a wolf I wouldn't flip the read there" because we've literally shown that we accept those arguments.
     
  19. Dels

    Dels Muggle

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    Like. I had what I thought was a solid argument against you, that you flipping your read on Cobalt/me overnight was exactly the thing you'd do as wolf, because you had to.

    But that was completely wrong. You were just... a townie re-evaluating properly.

    And I'm probably never gonna use that read again in the future on anyone because it's pretty unfair and it discourages, like... proper town play and honesty.
     
  20. fontisian

    fontisian Slug Club Member

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    Ok. Yeah, part of why I was nervous when you said you were voting is I didn't really know where you'd be voting, and I think that's a town thing from you? Like, as a wolf, I feel like your path to townreading me would have been clearer.
     
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