Hey all. I need a little help since I'm not sure where my copies of books 5 and 6 are and therefore cannot refer to them.

I've read far too many fanon takes on the disaster that was fifth year Occlumency and the fall out resulting from it. I'm actually getting a little frustrated trying to put into words what I want to ask. I guess it would be did the lessons fail solely because Snape did not actually want to teach Harry or because Harry did not actually want to learn? Or both?

Also, and again far too much fanon influence here, did Harry blame Snape for Sirius' death due to his failure to teach Harry anything? Or did Harry blame himself for being more interested in having the visions than blocking them if, indeed, that's what was going on? I'm working on a fic and I really don't want to fall into heavy cliche territory so I'm trying to work out realistic feelings here. I've noticed several members here have some fantastic analytical skills so I'm hoping you can help me out with this.

Lil

 

The lessons failed due to the rarity of Occlumency books.

 

Thank you Sesc! That was immensely helpful! I appreciate it. Fanon can be a real bitch at times.

Lill

 

It’s ambiguous…

You can argue that Snape was not so much teaching Harry, as he was forcing him to build an Occlumency barrier using pain and brute force.

You can also argue that Snape is a twat and taking petty revenge on someone who died a decade and a half ago, by attempting to break his mind.

…

The whole “no books” thing is currently popular because everyone who counts in bowing down to Santi’s awesomeness, and HE came up with original ideas recently. And well, managed to pull it off in an impressive style.

So it's up to you to decide for yourself, as it is for everyone.

 

Not at all.

"Due to the rarity of occlumency books, x must be true" is a hilarious shitty DLP-meme which was started by Kurufinwe, a Pole with a severe logic deficit. He posted "From the rarity of Occlumency books, we have to assume that pensieves are even more rare in santi story" a year ago, and has been mocked for it ever since.

It's a local meme, not an honest belief. The OP presented too good an opening for Ashaya to ignore.

 

Ugh . . . I hate this idea. It usually earns a click on the big, red X when I see it.

 

Indeed. I always pictured Occlumency as more as what was happening with Molly and the Corpsetaker at the end of Ghost Story.

 

The other important thing to remember is that Harry was expected to learn Occlumency in about 6 months. Can Occlumency even be learnt in that time? The probability is that it is unlikely unless you are a prodigy. It may take years for most practitioners to learn it.

Possibly Harry may have learnt better by a different method, maybe Snape's method was the fastest to learn a method of protecting your mind, maybe it would have worked if the lessons happened for slightly longer, maybe it would have worked if Harry hadn't been mentally attacked for years by the scar at this point.

The other thing is whether Occlumency can even be used while you're asleep. Would it actually do anything to stop the visions?

-------

The thing I always hate about Occlumency is when the author brings in mindscapes. Umm... what? You hide all your memories and emotions away and don't look at them or allow them out in case people see them, right? So that means you can't have random thoughts or memories appear or automatically make associations between ideas.

Instead of brainstorming and being able to imaginatively come up with new solutions the Mindscaping Occlumencer will be limited to comparing one thought against one other, over and over again until they spark off a new thought. They'd be extremely boring, wouldn't understand jokes or feelings, but be very good at retrieving memories. Whoop-de-fucking-do.

 

I will just put out there that Draco learned from Bellatrix. I never viewed him as high on the willpower totempole although the kid is between a rock and a hard place growing up, nor Bellatrix as a particularly soft teacher, especially after Azkaban.

JKR:

I don't really agree with that, as Draco was a pretty lousy death eater, but it seems to be the typical Gryfindoor explanation for Harry - act first and think later.

I think the official thoughts would be along the line that Occlumency is hiding something, so it's basically bad and therefore Slytherins would be good at it line of bullshit.

Other than serving the purposes of the story, I'm sure someone can finagle an explanation together about Harry's scar and it's proximity to him and all that stuff. I've also seen the route taken where occlumency must be taught by someone who is trusted due to them peering in your head and that Snape/Harry had the worst starting point possible. What doesn't jive there is that I don't think Draco would trust Bella all that much, not sure.

 

Maybe Occlumency is just one of those things that not everyone has an aptitude for?

 

I hate this subject SO MUCH but I want to contribute more so I shall. With more speculative BS.


All I remember about Occlumency is that they said it blocked Voldemort's special mind rape. But then in Deathly Hallows Voldermort's special mind rape Legilimency through a mind link turned into something different for Harry. Instead of following a mind link, Voldemort was following a handy-dandy Horcrux path straight into Harry's skull.

So the evil mind link was never really a purely evil mind link, because a nasty dirty filthy part of Voldemort's soul was screwing around with Harry's head to begin with. And the only reason I'm thinking the fact that it was a soul piece at all was because Harry pushed Voldemort out of his mind with a healthy dose of emotional turmoil at the end of OotP. Which was probably exactly what no one wanted him to try to do (if we go along with the assumption that Snape, while a douche, probably did give some level of correct instruction in Occlumency), but it worked anyway.

SO WHY NOT have what Harry managed to do as a special snowflake and have what Snape was trying to teach him to do be two different things entirely for two different problems entirely and straight up Occlumency just be the wrong method to combat Harry's particular problem. YAY.

---

It is entirely too easy to justify this crap with or without using exhaustive canon information to support your supposition. Which is probably why there are five zillion threads on this subject all across the internet.

 

Im fairly confident, though obviously could be mixing fanon with canon, that Dumbledore pretty much said this to Harry. He referenced Draco's ability with and speculated why he had the aptitude for it and Harry didn't. I think it was something a long the lines of Harry being too hot headed and wearing his heart on his sleave type drivel.

 

I think that it was mainly Harry's fault that he didn't learn Occulmency in canon. While the way that Snape taught Occulmency was harsh, it also seems very efficient, if Harry had spent some time working on it.

Harry also never seemed like the best student in the world. Hell, he defeated Voldermort twice because of luck, not skill.

Snape was understandably harsh. He is here teaching a person that has, in his opinion, no good skills in magic, and the hate is mutual between them. I think he thought there was no way to get Harry to learn Occulmency, thus he is just wasting his time.

 

Okay since everyone seems to have the relationship between Harry and Snape well covered. And that it is basically both are at fault, I feel the need to look at a different side of it.

Since the books are written from Harry's view of things, we don't know everything. Yes, Harry could have put more effort forth into learning what Snape was grudgingly teaching him. But, look at it this way, we don't bloody well know what Voldemort ordered the much hated and petty Potions Master to do. Severus has to listen and take orders from Dumbledore, the man who kept him out of Azkaban, and Voldemort, a half-blood like him that's pissed at the world because his upbringing sucked like Snape's and decided to do something about it. So, while Dumbledore ordered Snape to teach Harry, Voldemort could have ordered him to be brutal while teaching him and make it so he could access Harry's mind through said Horcrux.

The point is we don't know everything that was going on outside of Harry's perspective.