How sure are you that Kalas,

a) is Kabuto
b) has used both of his poison shots

And that if Kalas does have a buddy left, that buddy is,

c) not Orochimaru

?

Because unless you're very to completely sure about all three, again, please explain why you think mass claiming is a risk worth taking because I don't see it.

I'm open to being convinced we should, but with my limited experience, the risk/reward looks bad to me.

---------- Post automerged at 12:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 PM ----------

Here's one thing I think we should do:

1. Any feedback from last night?

(Nothing to report here.)

2. Based on what you've seen and done in this game so far, how much information do you think scum have about your role? I.e., of the possible roles you could be based on who's dead (like, everyone knows Danzo and Tsunade are dead), have you done anything to narrow yourself down for rolehunting scum?

(I have narrowed myself down, at this point, to one of two roles.)

---------- Post automerged at 12:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------
zenzeo; Citrus; Typhon; Atum;

I also think we shouldn't take the full three days. We saw what happened yesterday - inertia / momentum is a terrible thing when you don't have it.

I can feel the energy sapping itself in this game, and I'm not immune to it.

Let's get our ducks in a row today and then go ahead and lynch Kalas.

 

Sorry to disappoint Tobi, it's hard to do better than that on my phone

---------- Post automerged at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 PM ----------
Newcomb

Kalas is confirmed Orochimaru OR Kabuto

1) Kalas is Kabuto
Orochimaru must be dead to have been 'grave-dug'
We lynch Kalas
All soupers are dead

2) Kalas is Orochimaru
The real Kabuto needs two nights to be able to soup
No one will get souped tonight
There is potential to get souped tomorrow night
HOWEVER this means that there will be a scum nightkill tonight

This means there will be 4 alive tomorrow.

Pros to mass-claiming today:
Easier to catch scum tomorrow (potentially)

Cons to mass-claiming today:
Cannot no lynch tomorrow to force scum to kill someone and narrow it down to 3 left before we lynch

*the pro cons list is for world 2*

I believe we're in world 1 pretty damn strongly considering how the souping has been this game. But in either world it's better to mass claim today (especially world 1)

---------- Post automerged at 03:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------

Uhh actually I just looked at the OP and realized I already know your role, awkwardly enough. Which makes me lean more strongly to mass claiming.

I'm now comfortable letting this loose: I crumbed my role mega hard D1, but I hid it in a way that is basically impossible to detect unless I explain it (which I also made sure was ok to do with Fluffiness), in a way very similar to how I was trying to explain crumbs.

I can try to hint it in a way that doesn't give the role away yet, as I'd rather catch someone claiming my role. I think we have the game relatively figured out now.

We may not want to mass-claim today if we're worried about Sarutobi getting killed, as I also just realized I was mixing that role up with another. That's the only reason to not claim today

 

Bullshit. That wall of a post you quoted was done by my mobile. You've been shady as hell again since this Day began. You refuse to help us look for definitive proof of Kalas' Scummates. You won't make cases or link to anything you think anyone has done. All you do is push for massclaiming.

No. I'm taking a good hard look at you before DayEnd in addition to finishing with Kalas.

---------- Post automerged at 16:08 ---------- Previous post was at 16:06 ----------

See, wall post from mobile. How hard was that?

Now bring some cases. I'll be back in a few hours.

 

Typhon; Atum; Citrus;

If you guys are comfortable with the work I'm doing on ISO'ing Kalas, here's something you can do that would be helpful:

Your best case for a "Zenzao is scum (groupscum or Tobi)" world.

Reason: Zenzao's attitude these last couple days, especially the way he's aggressively tried to wrangle us into cohesion combined with the way he's agreeing with me a ton, has me slightly worried that he's pocketed me and I've lost perspective.

Citrus, that pro/con massclaiming post was helpful, thanks. I hadn't thought about the mechanics of the fact that Kalas has to be one of the soupers - and I agree that world 1 is more likely.

 

The fuck is wrong with you.

Citrus: "Unless Newcomb fake-claims my role or something on that level, he's conf!town. It is mildly mildly possible he's Tobi in a hail mary world but I dont really want to account for that unless something indicates we should post-claims"

Zenzao: "Also, funny how now you're backtracking on yourself claiming while pushing for New to go 'now before you're NK'd'. New should go last. You go first, mister volunteer."

Citrus: "At least read my dad posts, second time you misconstrued

I said Newcomb should claim today but claim last so it's all or nothing mass claim day, seriously read my posts slower or something. Second time..."


Zenzao: "Bullshit. That wall of a post you quoted was done by my mobile. You've been shady as hell again since this Day began. You refuse to help us look for definitive proof of Kalas' Scummates. You won't make cases or link to anything you think anyone has done. All you do is push for massclaiming.

No. I'm taking a good hard look at you before DayEnd in addition to finishing with Kalas."

Seriously, actually read the fucking posts before you go off spouting garbage.

---------- Post automerged at 03:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:25 PM ----------

And I literally don't give a shit if you want to spend 24 hours straight trying to misrep my posts, simialrly to the crap Mathblade was doing. I'm town and my role claim should make that damn clear anyways.

---------- Post automerged at 03:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 PM ----------

You asked specifically for Zenzao, but really you can slot anyone's name in for Zenzao and the logic holds

Zenzao scum - Sasuke or Kabuto

If Tobi is also alive, we're in autoloss.
If Tobi is dead, proceed.

We lynch Kalas to give 5 alive. Tonight someone is shot (scum always prefer evens in day, no way they dont shoot).

If someone is hit and survives -> townfirm AND we have 2 mislynches.
If someone dies, we have 4 alive.

We can either end day or lynch. If we lynch wrongly, we lose. If Zenzao is Kabuto, he can soup, so we would have to lynch him tomorrow.
HOWEVER Sarutobi has not gone off yet.
Town is in win-or-tie (Sarutobi can take out Zenzao if he dies).

This all applies to if the final scum alive is anyone too, not just Zenzao.

Zenzao Tobi

We have 5 going into the night.
Zenzao can shoot, leaving us with 4 alive.
No more kills beyond lynching, so we get to lynch 2 people.
IF Sarutobi is still alive, we can lynch 3 (lynch Sarutobi second and he hits someone to leave 1 player alive).

The trade-off is literally mass-claiming putting scum in the corner and making them obvious OR trying to get Sarutobi to survive to tomorrow. I'm of the belief mass-claim is better because there's very few roles that could be dead that can be faked right now, and there's a few town alive like me who's roles are unknown, making it harder for scum to fake claim the right one.

 

I fully agree and endorse this. @All; bring a case on me so I can debunk it.

Nice job omitting the rest of your posts to cast me in a bad light. Let me go dredge those up right now as I make my own case against you.

#4072

So we auto-lose if Kalas isn't the last Scum, but you won't put in the effort to confirm or deny this instead preferring to just lynch your way through and hope for the best. Strike 1.

Why Typhon over Atum? What is your reasoning for them? You're so Tobi!focused that you won't say anything about them.

Doubtcast. Willing to claim first.

#4075.

You're so focused on this like its proven fact that Tobi has no choice but to shoot at New. And here is where you backtrack on willing to claim while pushing for New to claim, no where in this do you say that New should go last. Strike 2. Point out where you say New should go last prior to #4079 after I've already called you out.

Then claim. If we've Judge!Lynched Orochimaru!Rubicon and Lynch Kabuto!Kalas ToDay, no more Soupers exist and you have nothing to be afraid of. I'm not misrepping your posts, I'm calling you out for suspicious behavior and strong likelihood of Guren.

Where's that buzzer vid I linked a while back? Waco's cop check on Math proves she was Godfather(Sasuke) or Tobi. You're pushing for Kabuto!Kalas. We believe that Orochimaru!Rubicon is the case. So why don't you suggest Guren, the only likely remaining Scum outside of Kalas here? Trying not to bring much attention to your own Scum role?

As you said above, anyone could fit that slot. This is not definitive proof that I am Tobi. Try harder.

Working through the chain you suggest. Lynch Kalas toDay(D5). Tobi kills N5. D6 opens to 4(3|1), Lynch D6, no kills N6, enter D7 3(2|1), Lynch Sarutobi D7 and he hits Tobi the game is won. Alright, that logic looks right. Only if we don't lynch Sarutobi D7 and miss Tobi would Tobi then win as he 1v1's and auto-wins.

Yeah, its funny, my role is also unknown given I haven't been Souped. I believe you're using that as an excuse to Tobi!read me. Y/N?

---------- Post automerged at 19:20 ---------- Previous post was at 19:17 ----------

Yeah, I think I've got your Strike 3 right here looking over that last post of yours again.

Then how does that build a case against me as Scum? It doesn't, or for Tobi. You fail. You're my lynch for Tomorrow, unless New's ISO or my own resolves you as Titus-level assholiness. You were also rather quick to jump at her commands toward the close of D3 IIRC, Citrus, trying to suggest TMNT Judge!Lynch me rather than we lynch Tobi?!Qg.

 

Yeah you've now approached the point of Mathblade as far as I'm concerned this game. Shockingly, that includes not just your compeltely mis-construing what i say but your fucking arrogant attitude. I literally cannot believe how irritating you're getting, stop fucking goading all over my posts. For now I'm just going to ignore you, just like I did with Mathblade.

I sincerely don't understand why this is the second time now I've been pissed as all hell with someone's massive arrogance this game. Feel free @Observers to point out if my play-style or something this game has attracted this for future reference, because I have never encountered this negative whirlpool of misconstrued arguments before to nearly this extent and I'd really like to know if something I've done has caused it happen to me.

I'd appreciate anyone other than Zenzao's thoughts on if we should massclaim today or not based off the stuff I said. Yes, that even includes Kalas's thoughts.

Anyways, addressing everyone else. Zenzao seems to be floundering because he's worried he'll be lynched -> primary motive right now is attack attack attack anything I say and try to setup a mislynch (for an example of scum doing this, please see Mathblade's play this game). I would chalk both him and Mathblade up to being pretty inexperienced as scum, and it goes to show as Zenzao is now the second scum player to take the low road of abusing emotional attacks and completely mis-representing posts in their efforts to take someone out.

---------- Post automerged at 06:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:32 PM ----------

Brings to mind the saying "Only a Sith deals in absolutes". Zenzao is approaching the level of "YOU USED A PLURAL 'S' ON ONE OF YOUR WORDS THEREFORE YOU MUST BE LYING BECAUSE YOU TRIED TO NIGHT KILL THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE NOW LET ME DROWN YOU OUT WITH CONSTANT ARROGANCE [redacted]"

[redacted] is there because I don't want to get warned/modkilled for over-stepping a boundary with what I want to say right now.

---------- Post automerged at 06:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:35 PM ----------

Ok, I calmed down and realized what it is.

Zenzao is not appraoching me from the mindset of *I don't know what your alignment is for sure*. He's not interested in determining what I am, because he already knows I'm town. Rather than question what I've said and thought, he attacks it. Rather than try to understand what I'm saying, he paints it in a negative light. He's not trying to figure out what I am, because he's already decided I'm scum.

This is something less experienced scum players do because it's hard to genuinely give off the impression of solving the game. When you're less experienced scum, you end up deciding *ok this player will be my townread and this player will be my scumread etc.* and it becomes more black and white, while when you're town it's all a lot more grey.

This is exactly what happened when Mathblade was attacking me. She decided I would be her scumread and that was that, regardless of anything I said. This is why I've gotten a massive feeling of things I'm saying being misconstrued or mis-repped. It's because Mathblade/Zenzao literally needs to twist what I'm saying to make it look like it's from scum, because they need to read me as scum.

I've been getting super frustrated this game because I can understand town-reading or scum-reading me, but I was dumbfounded and infuriated when Mathblade and now Zenzao were going down a path that I couldn't even comprehend in 'reading' me. Making it feel like all crap - the "throw bullshit on the wall and see what sticks" method.

I try very hard not to scumread players that scumread me until I'm sure it's not simply because I'm being scumread, because I do have a natural tendency to do so, but in this case I'm now pretty confident that it's not that tendency in this case and Zenzao is actually Tobi. Especially as he's built me up for a day or two now as scum, which coincides with when I started mentioning Zenzao was my Tobi read.

 

Citrus, while I kind of agree with you about Z getting a little hyperbolic, I feel like he does have a few reasonable points.

Like, when I asked for a case against Z as either groupscum or Tobi, you just gave me a mechanical scenario that you said:

Yeah see that's not super helpful. If the logic holds no matter who you slot in there, then how does it help us find and lynch the actual Tobi or Kalas's hypothetical partner?
Atum; Typhon to the stage, please.

We're not going to drag this out the full three days. We're going to decide, as a group, if we're massclaiming or not - Citrus, while I didn't find your Z post helpful I did think you made some reasonable points about the safety of massclaiming - and then we're lynching Kalas. If Tobi / Kalas's buddy is making a kill tonight, we'd do well not to give them too much WIFOM to play with.

 

#4085 and Zenzao's response #4086 is a really good example of this occurring. If I have to I can go through his posts and piece-meal show this.

Inb4 Zenzao starts screaming bloody murder at me again and tells everyone to ignore everything I just said again

 

Oh, and...

Absolutely not. No one should give anything Kalas says today any weight, positive or negative.

 

That analysis up there was meant to be a mechanical thing, because I wanted to show the pros/cons of mass claiming vs not accurately.

We should theoretically talk about who Sarutobi should take out if he gets killed tonight, if we aren't mass claiming today.

The Zenzao read post you're looking for ninja'd your post by a few seconds, it got auto-merged in - check the post right above yours

---------- Post automerged at 06:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 PM ----------

That was me being hyperbolic out of anger, but ftr notice the irony of everyone being told to look through Kalas's previous posts but not his current ones. As if wine isn't drenched all over all of them

 

I mean, you're not wrong, but there's a world of difference between scum!Kalas trying to be towny and scum!Kalas being outed in the thread.

Before, he had to mix truth and lies and appear towny. Now, literally his only goal is to WIFOM protect his scumbuddy if he has one, or just fuck with our heads for fun if it's just Tobi / no one.

I mean if we're not even going to attempt a Kalas ISO based on the fact that his posts inevitably will have deception in them, then we might as well just /jesus take the wheel lynch Kalas and hope for the best.

I, for one, don't want to scoop that easily.

 

Fair enough. It's my belief that he's the last group!scum though, in which case he's lost anyways. If I were the final mod!outed group!scum and someone asked me I'd probably either say "screw town I'm not saying anything" or "I think Tobi is X because Y" since I'd have lost already, but I don't really mind either way

 

Citrus, I haven't treated you any different than I have Snow, Titus, and Math. Good to see you finally feel antagonized enough to bitch back rather than wholly deflect, too bad you don't actually counter my argument against you. Still zero support for my being Tobi, and no response to Typhon as Scum or Atum or my calling you out as Guren.

If I were Scum with Kalas/Math etc, do you really think I'd be this blatant about attacking my Scumspects? Your comparison to me and Math is just one more attempt to avoid actually countering me. You're even going so far as to ignore me and ask for thoughts from the only mod confirmed Conf!Scum in the game. Fail.

 

The difference between DeepWolf!Kalas and outed!Kalas is I only have to put about 1/10th the level of thought into my posts toDay. That said if you want my thoughts on potential Tobi's all you have to do is ask.

 

More Kalas stuff:

This makes me feel more uneasy about Math not actually being groupscum Sasuke.

Not going to try to WIFOM this, but putting it out there in case others can read tea leaves better than I.

Before she died, Titus left this legacy:

After she died, Kalas quoted her, specifically pointing to that post.

Kalas was pushing Jan pretty hard here, but appears to be fine with Atum, Z, and Snow.

The fact that he's calling attention to Titus and using a confirmed town to dredge up this group... I'd have to say that looks good for Z and Atum.

This post (quoting Jan's vote analysis, click the link in-quote to see) makes me again question the Sasuke!MathBlade narrative. I mean, this is not the first time Kalas has tacitly implied it.

In response to Z asking him about a potential scumteam:

Hm. Such waffling.

More Atum defense.

____________

Going over the rest of Kalas's posts, I don't feel any better about Atum.

Best case: Lynch Kalas, town wins.

Very possible: Lynch Kalas, lynch Ooops-Math-Was-Town-After-All scum!Atum Sasuke, town wins.

Scary scenario: Lynch Kalas, lynch Sasuke!Atum, lynch WIM!Tobi!Zenzeo, town wins.

I have no case for Tobi!Zenzeo other than my niggling doubts that the way he's interacted with me these past few days could be construed as hardcore buddying of the last confirmed town.

Typhon is also playing this game, apparently. If someone wants to dredge up some confirmed town thoughts or ISO on him or something, that would be great.

 

You have this interesting process where you don't want to listen to me when IDGAF, but you look over my old posts and don't think every single thing I said was absolutely 100% calculated.

 

SIR THIS IS MY PROFESSION, I DON'T JUDGE YOUR WOLFING SKILLS.

 

Nope. No judgement here

 

I've said it a multitude of times throughout this game and at each time I have been fully ready to comply, but if it will finally put an end to doubts on my end, New, would you like my claim?